Originally posted by Cezar I imagine that the laws of nature are not universal laws of existence but simulacres, false appearences. Logicaly, this is more plausible than believing that there are some laws of mattery that function by their own principles. What are the logical statements that lead to such a conclusion? Can you please elaborate them?

The principle of existence should be self-sufficient, or the world in the materialist vision, exists from ever but there is not explanation why.

Imagine your daughter is diagnozed with diabetes. What would want her to do? Swallow pills or think that diabetes is just imagination?

I don't have rules for how to behave, the same situation can be taken different in two occasions. I decide what to do in a mystic way, remaining in prayer and renouncing at any activity for this and there are some deeds that are done without me implying with my atention in them (the body is moving itself).

So, if she stays focused on that she will always be healthy and young. Better for her if she never gets to see a doctor. Cause if the doctors will tell her she has a health problem she might imagine that the doctor is right and then she gets ill just because she considered there is aproblem.

I explained, I repeat: I don't say to adopt some ideas, autosugestion is a grave error, both because can lead only to bad results and also because any form of mind self-controll produce psychiatric disorders.

I say simply to no more believe that aging or getting sick is a natural process or a material changement in our body, or that the body is material.

If you think that I'm considering Discovery channel as a science class maybe it's you who should stop watching it. And do read some real science books. You look quite found of history. Does that mean that you also consider this as being solely your imagination.

I refered to Discovery channel because its stories are definitory for that kind of belief in science.

I do not watch Discovery (or tv generaly), I have real scientifical books in my library and I've spent tens of hours in the libraries of the universities of medicine, chemistry, biology an others, not to mention tens of visits an natural history museum and others.

I'm not fixed in my convinction about history, I simply take it as it appears and also I love it.

Then you should not dare to use a computer.

why? What's the logic? Are you considering that computers are the merit of science people? You are wrong in two ways:

-nodoby can produce something or discover something, just watch how your mind works and will see any good thought doesn't comef from you

-nothing is impure, so there is not logic to not use computer

Is the reality according to your imagination or vice-versa? If the latter, I can draw a set of logical statements that makes you God. Or me. Or anyone else.

saying this you prove that you are only making speculations, not looking for the truth.

Originally posted by Richard XIII <h1>Is aging inevitable?</h1>Yes, our physical body obeys "Second Law of Thermodynamics" - <font size="+1">http://www.emc.maricopa.edu/faculty/farabee/BIOBK/BioBookEner1.html <font size="+1"><font size="+1">

The fact that some things are happening the same way apparently since ever doesn't mean that those laws are laws of existence. It can be a simulacre.

Edited by Menumorut - 20-Mar-2008 at 11:37

I remember I had once with Menumorut a frustrating discussion on a similar topic, and, to paraphrase Decebal, when adapting his arguments to my paradigm it led to an unescapable self-contradiction. I for one cannot understand someone claiming everything is an illusion but at the same time attempting to persuade someone else of that.

Originally posted by Brian J Checco The only way to never get old is to die young.

I rather get old than get dead.

Originally posted by malizai_ It is amazing though that a self repairing organism dies. How the gene clock  suddenly switches on the ageing and growing processes.Why can it not repair itself indefinately? Is it fighting it's environment and does not yet have all the counter strategies? Are we designed to fail?   It is an interesting topic.

We are designed to propogate the species then die off so younger generations can flourish.

edit:
"the only way to never grow old is to die young"

Haha, too true!





Edited by Adalwolf - 27-Mar-2008 at 08:03

Originally posted by Menumorut Shall I take this as a confirmation that you don't have any other objections to my analysis of the physical, material existence of the aging of the body, except for the fact that I did not take into account the soul? I consider it completely fancy. The world is not constituted of atoms, is just a story.

What exactly is it made up off then?


Even religious books affirm the existence of atoms, the Big Bang, and most especially death. You know Noah didn't really live to be a thousand years old, numbers such as that just try to relatively note his unique old age in a time when for the average person 4 decades of living was a marvel.

Originally posted by es_bih What exactly is it made up off then? Even religious books affirm the existence of atoms, the Big Bang, and most especially death. You know Noah didn't really live to be a thousand years old, numbers such as that just try to relatively note his unique old age in a time when for the average person 4 decades of living was a marvel.

The principle of existence and the Being is God and the world is His creqtion from nothing.

The world can be only an illusions of our mind, it was not created for something else than for humans.

Religious books are inspirational for me but not as a message from God that have to be respected strictly.

Science proves that you will get old and die. Religious texts such as the Bible, Qu'ran, and others also have the same theory, you will eventually die, hence why there is a Day of Judgement to account for your life. Basic observation will confirm this too when you see people dying around you of old age. Yes I understand that living forever ambition, but unless you are the Highlander, or you are an Elf in LOTR you will fail in that quest. I do not understand how you can just wish yourself into another physical state. In that case I wish for a few billion Gs.

If world is an illusion, science is fake, even the laws of nature apparently worked for millenia.

The Bible says that some people will not taste the death.

Living for ever is one thing and remaining young for ever is a different thing.

Living for ever as an elder or even not young would not be very pleasantful.

I feel the real issue is not whether aging is inevitable but what is the significance if our body cells can be renewed all the time - thus providing an indefinite natural lifespan.

Edited by snowybeagle - 06-Jun-2008 at 12:16

Originally posted by Menumorut But if there is other world, like the one from Christian teachings, would be annoying to live eternaly aged. Eternity has a sense only if you remain forever young.

Why would you think the world from the Christian teaching would mean to live eternally aged?

Originally posted by snowybeagle The Christian teaching of eternal living points to living with a new ageless body, which is not the same body as the mortal body in this world.

Not only the body is aging but the soul, I mean people are getting another self-identity with time. In the Orthodox icon of Dormition the soul of the Mother of God is shown as a baby but this doesn't happen of most people.

Even if there is a body changement, a soul with an aged self-consciousness will look old. But a new body cann't be eternal, only what is spiritual is eternal, everything which is composed is destined to decomposition. The Christian teachings about human resurrection says not about new bodies but about the old bodies and I'm interpreting this as the people will retake all their conscience about their bodily life before dying.

Agelessness means neither young nor old as both terms do not have any meaning in that dimension.

I meat a concept, that both youth and aged are not intrinsic to the soul who is praying (meaning that when praying the soul is in its real dimension, not distorted by what ration added to the personality) in a book by Sophrony Sakharov (this book I love the most after the Bible) but I think you have to be young to be happy.

Though we need ingest of hydrocarbons in certain forms, these intakes can ultimately be broken down into chemical elements.

I think is possible to live without eating and I hope a day this will happen with me. The weakness of the body when you don't eat is ilusory, the strenght of body, at any level (I mean you have sometimes more energy sometimes less and there are stronger and weaker people) is spiritual, is a sensation of the soul. The fact that this energy is commonly corelated the eaten food is simulated by God, I consider.

Thus, if the human bodies do not break down, population of humans would keep growing (assuming people continue to reproduce).

At a smaller pace, this is the direction still people dying.

Originally posted by snowybeagle 1 Corinthians 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable;

The term body in the Pauline epistles reffer often to the whole human being, body and soul. When he reffers only to body he says flesh.

But the concept of eternity is one that is ageless, otherwise, it is not eternal nor ageless. The best analogy I can think of in this world is the rainbow.

This is true already in the life from now. We see children are seeing themselves mature, only incomplete in knowledge and we see the old people saying they feel young, so the soul has no age.

But you have to think you are young to feel good. If you several time repeat yourself you are young you "fix" yourself in the youth in your conscience.