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Topic ClosedThe Slavic element in Homer's epics
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Petro Invictus View Drop Down
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Posts: 550 		Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Slavic element in Homer's epics
    Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:01
I am sorry for the unintentional mistake! It was indeed proto-Germanic!!!

And the Old English derived from proto-Germanic since the term proto-Germanic is the hypothetical common ancestor (proto-language) of all the Germanic languages!

Old English was yet an earlier form of English which is part of the Germanic languages! Correct me if I am wrong.


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Posts: 1061 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:04
Petro, you needn't post me links about Germanic languages.

Sure, but the words change and Proto-Germanic word wasn't 'eode' (I think even your own source disproves your claim). Old English was spoken only in England...there weren't Slavs in England.
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Posts: 550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:07
We use both (like many other words), not just krasi and I have already demonstrated that to you.


I need to clarify a major misconception that the reader might face here! What the modern Greek comprises of in terms of vocabulary is immensely influenced by the project of Katharevousa in the 19th century! Many ancient terms had reentered the modern Greek Demotic via this intervention, so today it is not a mistake to say that both terms are in use: KRASI and OINOS! However, it seems to be a rather ambiguous intervention that has brought these two terms together in coexistence!




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Posts: 1813 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:10
Originally posted by Petro Invictus

We use both (like many other words), not just krasi and I have already demonstrated that to you.


I need to clarify a major misconception that the reader might face here! What the modern Greek comprises of in terms of vocabulary is immensely influenced by the project of Katharevousa in the 19th century! Many ancient terms had reentered the modern Greek Demotic via this intervention, so today it is not a mistake to say that both terms are in use: KRASI and OINOS! However, it seems to be a rather ambiguous intervention that has brought these two terms together in coexistence!




Are you that sure again? Maybe I should post some litterature from the 15th century and you'll tell me what you think?


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Posts: 1813 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:13
Also about Germanic Petro...Check out this thread as well: http://allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=24637


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Posts: 1061 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:14
Well, that's a nice thread.LOL
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Posts: 550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:15
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Petro, you needn't post me links about Germanic languages.

Sure, but the words change and Proto-Germanic word wasn't 'eode' (I think even your own source disproves your claim). Old English was spoken only in England...there weren't Slavs in England.


I didn't say there were Slavs in England, unless we count those from modern times! Wink

The term EODE is very similar to ODI! They are both Indo-Europan! Like WATTER and VODA! SUN and SONCE!

This was to confirm that the root morpheme ODI or EODE means TO GO!

In that regard ODYSSEY means a JOURNEY! And ODI SI in Macedonian means to GO AWAY!!!

The term for journey in modern Greek is (correct me if I am wrong): ταξίδι (taxidi)

While the Greek term for TO GO is:πηγαίνω (pigaino)


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Posts: 1813 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:19
Originally posted by Petro Invictus

Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Petro, you needn't post me links about Germanic languages.

Sure, but the words change and Proto-Germanic word wasn't 'eode' (I think even your own source disproves your claim). Old English was spoken only in England...there weren't Slavs in England.


I didn't say there were Slavs in England, unless we count those from modern times! Wink

The term EODE is very similar to ODI! They are both Indo-Europan! Like WATTER and VODA! SUN and SONCE!

This was to confirm that the root morpheme ODI or EODE means TO GO!

In that regard ODYSSEY means a JOURNEY! And ODI SI in Macedonian means to GO AWAY!!!

The term for journey in modern Greek is (correct me if I am wrong): ταξίδι (taxidi)

While the Greek term for TO GO is:πηγαίνω (pigaino)



Odyssey came to become "journey" because the epos...The name comes from the verb Οδύσσομαι which means something completely different http://www.grece-antique.net/abrege/show_lemmes/%E1%BD%80%CE%B4%E1%BD%BB%CF%83%CF%83%CE%BF%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%B9

Also, what about Οδεύω (to march, go ahead) and Οδός (road);

Your example would have the following equivalent in ancient Greek Οδεύουσσι (odevou -si). Wink


Edited by Flipper - 14-Jun-2008 at 17:22


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Posts: 1061 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:22
Figurative sense of "long, adventurous journey" is first recorded 1889. 1

It comes from Odysseus.
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Posts: 550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:23
Originally posted by Flipper

Also about Germanic Petro...Check out this thread as well: http://allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=24637


Nice thread indeed! What does it have to do with ēode?

Moreover it was rather a selective list of words from something called Avestan Dictionary: http://www.avesta.org/avdict/avdict.htm!

What is your point!

"AVESTAN (incorrectly) Zend Language,   eastern Iranian language of the Avesta, the sacred book of Zoroastrianism. Avestan falls into two strata, the older being that of the Gathas, which reflects a linguistic stage (dating from c. 600 BC) close to that of Vedic Sanskrit in India. The greater part of the Avesta is written in a more recent form of the language and shows gradual simplification and variation in grammatical forms. When the canon of the Avesta was being fixed (4th to 6th century AD), Avestan was a dead language known only to priests. "


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Posts: 1813 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:26
My point was alternative theories and i thought you would have something to add there. Nothing more.


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Posts: 550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:33
Originally posted by Flipper

Odyssey came to become "journey" because the epos...The name comes from the verb Οδύσσομαι which means something completely different http://www.grece-antique.net/abrege/show_lemmes/%E1%BD%80%CE%B4%E1%BD%BB%CF%83%CF%83%CE%BF%CE%BC%CE%B1%CE%B9

Also, what about Οδεύω (to march, go ahead) and Οδός (road);

Your example would have the following equivalent in ancient Greek Οδεύουσσι (odevou -si). Wink


WOW! How excellent! Οδεύω indeed meant to march! Οδός indeed meant a road! Odyssey then means a JOURNEY! What was that French explanation, by the way!

However in modern Greek the word for road is:δρόμος (dromos), and the word for marching is: περπατώ (perpato), πορεία (poreia), εμβατήριο (embatirio)...

In modern day Macedonian it is ODI SI, to GO AWAY (on a journey), in Russian it is: идти, in Serbian it is HODITI! While in modern Greek it is πηγαίνω (pigaino)...

Can you explain this to me!

   


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Posts: 550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:34
Originally posted by Flipper

My point was alternative theories and i thought you would have something to add there. Nothing more.


Isn't this thread on the Slavic character of Homer's language an alternative theory as well?


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Posts: 1061 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:34
Oddysey means journey for a bit more than 100 years!!
When are you gonna get it?
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Posts: 1061 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:35
Originally posted by Petro Invictus

Originally posted by Flipper

My point was alternative theories and i thought you would have something to add there. Nothing more.


Isn't this thread on the Slavic character of Homer's language an alternative theory as well?


And that was his point.
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Posts: 550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:39
OK! Let me clarify the developments in the modern Greek language so that we have a better focus! I do not deny the use of the ancient terminology in modern Greek. However:

What you guys fail to admit here is that it was the policy of the newly created Greek state ever since the independence in the 1820’s to promote archaic forms of Greek in order to approximate the language of the modern Greeks to that of the ancient. This experiment known as Katharevousa, even though did not replace the Dimotiki fully, influenced the modern Greek language to a great extent! Let me explain:

"Katharevousa (Kathareuousa, Greek: Καθαρεύουσα, IPA: [kaθaˈrɛvusa], lit. "the purified one"), is a form of the Greek language conceived in the early 19th century by Greek intellectual and revolutionary leader Adamantios Korais (1748–1833)."

"Katharevousa was set at a midpoint between Ancient Greek and the Modern Greek of the time. It stressed both a more ancient vocabulary and a simplified form of the archaic grammar."

"Part of its purpose was to mediate the struggle between the "archaists" favouring full reversion to archaic forms, and the "modernists". Katharevousa can also be translated as "the clean one", implying a form of Greek without extraneous influences, as it may hypothetically have independently evolved from ancient Greek, but in its modern Greek connotation it merely means "formal language"."

"In later years, Katharevousa was used for official and formal purposes (such as politics, letters, official documents, and newscasting), while Dimotiki (δημοτική), 'demotic' or popular Greek, was the daily language. This created a DIGLOSSIC situation whereby most of the Greek population was excluded from the public sphere and advancement in education unless they conformed to Katharevousa.

In 1976, Dimotiki was made the official language and by the end of the 20th century full Katharevousa in its earlier form had become obsolete. However, many grammatical and syntactical rules that Katharevousa had adopted, and MUCH VOCABULARY from the Katharevousa strand, have come into contact with Dimotiki during the two centuries of its existence, so that the project's emphasis has made an observable contribution to the language as it is used today."

Therefore, I do accept that Greeks use both OINOS and KRASI today! However, it is obvious that it was part of the propaganda of the past century that has done everything to approximate the Modern Greek to the archaic!

What I am saying is that due to the fact that OINOS has its form in Slavic languages as VINO which has remained in this form ever since Homer's times, without any governmental attempts to change the modern languages and approximate them to Homer's, it is likely to suggest that Homer used a form of proto-Slavic language, in his works.


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Posts: 550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:42
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Oddysey means journey for a bit more than 100 years!!
When are you gonna get it?


Well ODI SI means GO ON A JOURNEY for more than 3 millenia in Macedonian! Maybe you misinterpret the true meaning of Odyssey!

EODE-ODI SI-ODYSSEY!

I got it thanks!Wink
 


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Posts: 550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:43
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Originally posted by Petro Invictus

Originally posted by Flipper

My point was alternative theories and i thought you would have something to add there. Nothing more.


Isn't this thread on the Slavic character of Homer's language an alternative theory as well?


And that was his point.


That is really an interesting point! Orthodoxy vs. Alternatives! How cute! I always thought that the Alternatives lead evolution forward!


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Posts: 550 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:46
Here is another example of the possible connection between Homer and the Slavic languages:

Quote: Iliad Book I (1.531)

"tên d' apameibomenos PROSEPHE nephelêgereta Zeus:
daimoniê* aiei men oïeai oude se lêthô*:
prêxai* d' empês* ou ti dunêseai, all' apo thumou***
mallon EMOI ESEAI*: to de toi* kai rhigion* estai*.
ei d' houtô TOUT' ESTIN EMOI mellei** philon einai: 565
all' akeousa* kathêso,EMOI d' epipeitheo muthôi,
mê nu toi ou chraismôsin** hosoi* theoi eis' en Olumpôi*
asson* ionth'*, hote ken toi aaptous* cheiras epheiô*."

In English:

"Then in answer to her spoke Zeus, the cloud-gatherer: [560] Strange one,1 you are always suspecting, and I do not escape you; yet you shall be able to accomplish nothing, but shall be even further from my heart; and that shall be the worse for you. If this thing is as you say, then it must be pleasing to me. Sit down in silence, and obey my word, [565] lest all the gods that are in Olympus avail you not against my drawing near, when I put forth upon you my irresistible hands."

The CAPITALIZED words in Homer's quote have the same form in Modern Macedonian, while in Modern Greek they are rather different:

Homer: prosphêmi,prosephê; English: to speak to, address; Macedonian: PROZVE, PROZIVA; Greek: μιλώ (milo), μιλήστε

Homer: eimi,eseai, estai; English: to be, to exist; Macedonian: (JE)SUM, (JE)SI, (JE)STE ; Greek: be=είμαι, βρίσκομαι (eimai, briskomai),exist=υπάρχω, υφίσταμαι (yparcho, yfistamai)

Homer: emos,emôi; English: mine; Macedonian: MOJ, MOJA, MOI, MOE; Greek: δικός μου (dikos mou)

Homer: houtos, touto; English: that; Macedonian: TOA(TE); Greek:εκείνος, ότι, ώστε (ekeinos, oti, oste)

This is just an indication to the possible origins of these words! All things considered, there is a lot of linguistic material in Homer's epics that suggestс that there had been a certain proto-Slavic influence at least in the earliest stages of Homer's oral transmission that has survived until today! However, since the epic was recorded in Classical times, it has suffered a huge influence from other non-Slavic languages such as the Doric, Attic, Ionic dialects, during its long transmission in a form that has survived in the South Slavic cultures, known as "guslari"!


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Posts: 1061 		Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jun-2008 at 17:46
Alah means a temple in Old Saxon - so all Muslims are Saxon...pleaseLOL


Macedonian is a Bulgarian dialect that was standardised in 20th century - there was no Macedonian (slavic) 3000 years ago - cut out this nonsense. please.

You can get your nationalist pride out of your system elsewhere.
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