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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Tyr,Tiregan,Tirigan,Tervingi,Tyragetae,Targitaus
    Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 06:08
It really doesn't matter what Bogatyr means or how it is pronounced in the Slavic because it has certainly an Iranian (Scythian) origin, not Slavic. In fact according to Encyclopaedia Britannica the Slavic word Bog has an Iranian origin too, "The adoption of foreign word bog probably displaced from the Slavic languages the Indo-European name of the celestial God, Deivos".
Another thing that shows Bogatyr couldn't be of Slavic origin is that, in the Slavic "bog" affix is attached to words as a suffix, like Dazhbog or Stribog, unlike baga-Ahuramazda in the Iranian languages.
I should mention here that I don't think that "Tyr/Tir" was an important god in the Achaemenid period, I know Mithra was really an important god, there some ancient Persian famous commanders like Mithradad (Mithradates) "given by Mithra" or Armamithras, and we see in the inscription of Artaxerxes: "Artaxerxes the King says: May Ahuramazda and the god Mithra protect me, and this country, and what was built by me.", but for Parthians "Tyr/Tir" was certainly an important god, the founder of Ascanian dynasty was Tirdad (Tiridates) "given by Tir".
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 09:29

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

It really doesn't matter what Bogatyr means or how it is pronounced in the Slavic because it has certainly an Iranian (Scythian) origin, not Slavic. In fact according to Encyclopaedia Britannica the Slavic word Bog has an Iranian origin too, "The adoption of foreign word bog probably displaced from the Slavic languages the Indo-European name of the celestial God, Deivos".

It bloody does matter how it is pronounced. It doesn't matter, on the other hand, how it is written (sometimes even orthography might indicate origin, but not in this case and definitely not FOREIGN TRANSCRIPTION!).

Of course, the word Bog is of Iranian origin. But Bogatyr has no relation to Bog, it's an old Altaic word.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Another thing that shows Bogatyr couldn't be of Slavic origin is that, in the Slavic "bog" affix is attached to words as a suffix, like Dazhbog or Stribog, unlike baga-Ahuramazda in the Iranian languages.

That's a wrong point. This is not a suffixed morpheme -bog, but a compound word formed from daj (from dati, to give) and bog. This is in no way an indicator of foreign origin, that's elsewhere. Bog is not an affix, it's a noun. It's like saying 'friend' can't be an inherited English word because it's suffixed to words forming e.g. penfriend, girlfriend, boyfriend, befriend...
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 09:45
I would also like you to keep in your mind the following. Just because there is a word, for instance, ''pin'' in English, doesn't necessarily mean that all words containing such element must bear any relation to it, e.g. pinch, pincers, pineapple, pinnacle, pinion don't, but pin-point does.
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Posts: 112 		  Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 13:09
Another thing that shows Bogatyr couldn't be of Slavic origin is that, in the Slavic "bog" affix is attached to words as a suffix, like Dazhbog or Stribog, unlike baga-Ahuramazda in the Iranian languages.


That is not valid linguistically. Because both bog and baga are nouns, they can be used to form compound words. The order of the terms in a compound word may change according to the pattern preferred in a certain language or to the emphasis the speaker wishes to place.

And "baga-Ahuramazda" is NOT a compound word. The phrase usually used is "baga vazarka Auramazda": "a mighty god Auramazda <is>".

As for Mithra being a "really important god" in Achaemenid times, that's plainly wrong. He was merely one of the divine beings subordinate to Auramazda. It was only in the Roman Empire that Mithra became "really important god", but the theology in this case is substantially different from the Zoroastrian perspective.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 16:11
Altaic Baghatur has peobably an Iranian (Scythian) origin too, Old Persian "Baga" (Middle Persian "Bagha/Bagh") can be found at the beginning of several ancient Persian names, like Bagaeus, Bagapates, Bagoases, Bagayadi, Bagabigna, Bagabuxsha, ... it could be even "Bog", like Boges, the Persian governor of Eion in Thrace, we know from Parthian period, Iranians called the Chinese emperor "Bagapur" (Baghpur in the Sassnid) and then Baghbur in Turkish and Faghfur in Arabic, this word has also an Iranian origin, that is just a Persian translation of the Chinese title Tien-tse (Son of God/Heaven).
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 16:33

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Altaic Baghatur has peobably an Iranian (Scythian) origin too, Old Persian "Baga" (Middle Persian "Bagha/Bagh") can be found at the beginning of several ancient Persian names

Are you listening to me?? Just because some transcription contains the same element as another foreign transcription, you can't conclude what you concluded. Anyway, you do have the word بهادر , the Persian form of Altaic Baghatur. Mongolian baatar still means warrior (intervocalic -gh- disappears, confer modern khaan and older khaghan)

Look here for the Turkic etymology of the word. And once again, please keep in mind that these Baghaturs are warriors, not gods.



Edited by Slayertplsko - 14-Apr-2009 at 16:38
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 18:26
Proto-Turkic *bagatur is obviousely a compound word, I'm talking about the origin of it, like several other Turkic words, this one could be also a loanword from Iranian languages, it is certainly not strange that Like Tyr: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiw who "is the god of single combat, victory and heroic glory in Norse mythology, portrayed as a one-handed man.", there was Scythian "Baga-Tyr" (the famous Scythian tribe Agathyrsi could be related to him too) who becomes Slavic "Bogatyr" and Turkic "Bagatur" but: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghatur just as "a warrior, a military commander, or an epic hero."
Please don't forget the story of Bogatyr and very important role of Tir "arrow" in that story.


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 14-Apr-2009 at 18:41
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Apr-2009 at 18:42

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Proto-Turkic *bagatur is obviousely a compound word, I'm talking about the origin of it

It's an inherited Turkic word and Persian language borrowed it. Please read the link and don't make up your own stories. Act to your words and use the source I provided you with. Here's its Altaic etymology for your convenience. I hope you don't want to claim that even an Altaic word is of Iranian origin.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

it is certainly not strange that Like Tyr: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiw who "is the god of single combat, victory and heroic glory in Norse mythology, portrayed as a one-handed man."

You're mixing unrelated Iranian and Germanic languages again. If you're searching for a cognate in Iranian languages, then it's Avestan daēva.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Scythian Baga-Tyr, 

What is your source for that?? Did you make it up again?

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Please don't forget the story of Bogatyr and very important role of Tir "arrow" in that story.

Which story?? Of which bogatyr?? Alyosha Popovich, Dobrynya Nikitich or which one??
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 13:42
Iranians never considered Daeva as their god but he was the god their enemies, so we see however Persian kings were tolerant of all religions but they never tolerate those who worshiped Daevas, as Xerxes says: "And among these countries there was a place where previously Daevas were worshipped. Afterwards, by the favor of Ahuramazda, I destroyed that sanctuary of the Daevas, and I made proclamation, The Daevas shall not be worshipped!", XERXES, PERSEPOLIS H. (XPh)

You can read here: A history of Zoroastrianism By Mary Boyce, Frantz Grenet, Tir/Tyr was probably the chief god of western Iranians, who incorporated his cult into Zoroastrianism at their conversion. And you can read about Armenian god Tiur: http://rbedrosian.com/ananik2b.htm "In spite of the puzzling silence of the Avesta on this point, Iran knew a god by the name of Tir. One of the Persian months, as the old Cappadocian and Armenian calendars attest, was consecrated to this deity (perhaps also the thirteenth day of each month). We find among the Iranians as well as among the Armenians, a host of theophorous names composed with "Tir" such as Tiribazes, Tiridates, Tiran, Tirikes, Tirotz, Tirith, etc., bearing unimpeachable witness to the god's popularity. Tiro-naKathwa is found even in the Avesta (52) as the name of a holy man. It is from Iran that Tir migrated in the wake of the Persian armies and civilization to Armenia, Cappadocia, and Scythia, where we find also Tir's name as Teiro on Indo-Scythian coins of the first century of our era (53)."
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 14:02
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Iranians never considered Daeva as their god but he was the god their enemies, so we see however Persian kings were tolerant of all religions but they never tolerate those who worshiped Daevas, as Xerxes says: "And among these countries there was a place where previously Daevas were worshipped. Afterwards, by the favor of Ahuramazda, I destroyed that sanctuary of the Daevas, and I made proclamation, The Daevas shall not be worshipped!", XERXES, PERSEPOLIS H. (XPh)

the ahura vs daeva is just a switch from the devs vs the evil asura's. How and why two IE religions used the same labels in juxtapose is much more interesting than if "bog-bag-big" links IE people another way.

 If Zoroaster was reforming he must of turned the otherwise vedic like religion on its head. Or was it the other way?Ermm


Edited by Leonidas - 15-Apr-2009 at 14:03
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 14:50

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Iranians never considered Daeva as their god but he was the god their enemies, so we see however Persian kings were tolerant of all religions but they never tolerate those who worshiped Daevas, as Xerxes says: "And among these countries there was a place where previously Daevas were worshipped. Afterwards, by the favor of Ahuramazda, I destroyed that sanctuary of the Daevas, and I made proclamation, The Daevas shall not be worshipped!", XERXES, PERSEPOLIS H. (XPh)

Good info, but irrelevant. What I said was that Avestan daeva (Old Persian daiva and all other forms) are cognates to Old Norse Týr, not that it was the same god.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

You can read here: A history of Zoroastrianism By Mary Boyce, Frantz Grenet, Tir/Tyr was probably the chief god of western Iranians, who incorporated his cult into Zoroastrianism at their conversion. And you can read about Armenian god Tiur: http://rbedrosian.com/ananik2b.htm "In spite of the puzzling silence of the Avesta on this point, Iran knew a god by the name of Tir. One of the Persian months, as the old Cappadocian and Armenian calendars attest, was consecrated to this deity (perhaps also the thirteenth day of each month). We find among the Iranians as well as among the Armenians, a host of theophorous names composed with "Tir" such as Tiribazes, Tiridates, Tiran, Tirikes, Tirotz, Tirith, etc., bearing unimpeachable witness to the god's popularity. Tiro-naKathwa is found even in the Avesta (52) as the name of a holy man. It is from Iran that Tir migrated in the wake of the Persian armies and civilization to Armenia, Cappadocia, and Scythia, where we find also Tir's name as Teiro on Indo-Scythian coins of the first century of our era (53)."

Again, good information, but I can't figure out its relevance.
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Posts: 112 		  Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 16:22
Zarathustra (Zoroaster), being the great reformer that he was, turned against contemporary divinities and considered them evil. The religious reform then brought along with it a linguistic transformation, the previous term for "god" becoming the word for "evil supranatural being".

A similar process happens when Christianity takes over in the Eastern Roman Empire. The inhabitants start calling themselves "Rhomaioi", "Romans", and the old term "Hellenes" migrates towards the meaning "pagan".

Therefore the point made by Slayertplsko retains full validity.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 20:00
Zarathustra was not the man who created Iranian languages, Avestan "daeva" has obviousely the same origin of English "devil" and Greek "diabolos", is it possible that a word which means shining and splendid in a language, is considered as devil?! http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Avestan+means-to-shine, as you read in the first link Sanskrit "deva" (god) means "shining" in this language and comes from a proto-IE root (*dyeu-) which means "to shine", and you can read in the second link: "In Avesta ‘Tish’ means ‘to shine’. Thus Tir or Tishtar represents the Light of God". (more exaclty Avestan "Tvis", according to the third link)

Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Good info, but irrelevant. What I said was that Avestan daeva (Old Persian daiva and all other forms) are cognates to Old Norse Týr, not that it was the same god.

Like our long discussion in Germanic and Iranian thread, I know logic has no meaning for you and you just believe in these illogical linguistic theories, but may I know why Persian "Tir" and Old Norse "Týr" or Avestan "Tish" and Swedish/Norwegian "Tis" can't be cognate?

Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 15-Apr-2009 at 21:27
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Posts: 112 		  Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Apr-2009 at 22:06
English "devil" and Greek "diabolos" do not have the same origin as Avestan daeva. Please note that the "e" in the Avestan word is long, something not easily discernable when using English keyboards.

Diabolos in Greek means "slanderer" and is used as such by Pindar and Aristoteles, among others. The translators of the Septuagint into Greek took this word and gave it the meaning of "Satan". The English "devil" can be explained through the phonetical alterations suffered by the word as it was borrowed into Latin and particularly as it was transmitted in Vulgar Latin.

Persian "Tir" and Old Norse "Týr" or Avestan "Tish" and Swedish/Norwegian "Tis" can't be cognate because you take words from vastly different eras. Believe it or not, words evolve in time and they do so according to precise norms. Some of them are "phonetical laws" - in a certain context a certain phoneme evolves in a certain way, and that happens in every instance.

You cannot take  two words, separated by centuries and say "they look similar when I write them both on my computer keyboard, therefore they must be related". Linguistics has moved a long time ago beyond amateurish guesswork. And another issue: just because things LOOK similar when transliterated does not mean anything. Transliterations are always imperfect.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2009 at 06:54
You didn't answer my question, you should believe that in Avestan, like Greek, Sanskrit, ... words have meanings, when Greek "Zeus", Sanskrit "Deva" mean "shining, splendid", is it possible that Avestan "Daeva" means the same? Why don't you notice that there is a "a" after "d" in the Avestan word? Does it matter that "Daush" means "to harm" in Persian and "Daushman" means "enemy, hostile"?
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Posts: 112 		  Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2009 at 09:02
This is what people smarter than myself (Clarisse Herrenschmidt and Jean Kellens) have to say in the matter:

*DAIVA, Old Iranian noun (Av. daēuua-, OPers. daiva-) corresponding to the title devá- of the Indian gods and thus reflecting the Indo-European heritage (*deiṷó-), though the category of divinities to which it referred seems to have dropped completely out of the Iranian religious tradition and even to have become demonized. It is extremely difficult to determine just when this change took place and to understand its significance within the framework of Mazdean theology. The impression garnered from various sources is that the process was a gradual one.


You can read the entire article at Encyclopaedia Iranica, under the heading "Daiva".
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2009 at 11:48
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

You didn't answer my question, you should believe that in Avestan, like Greek, Sanskrit, ... words have meanings, when Greek "Zeus", Sanskrit "Deva" mean "shining, splendid", is it possible that Avestan "Daeva" means the same?
Ah Yes. I am the least qualified in this thread but I would assume anyone with an interest in these connection would of learnt; Iranian religion switched from something looking very similar to vedic. its not that hard to see either. IIRC some 'good guys' stayed on the same side; from top of mind mithra-mitra. After the split the two sides developed their beliefs seperatly, with the names showing an underlying common source rather than the theology


Edited by Leonidas - 16-Apr-2009 at 11:49
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2009 at 16:03
I don't know why you have just focused on religions, it seems some Europeans, like Gherardo Gnoli in that article in Iranica, want to despise Iranians, did Iranian languages form after all other Indo-European languages? Zoroastrianism is just an Iranian religion, it can be said that "Ahura Mazda" is supreme god in this relgion, not other Iranian religions, but "Daeva" is a meaningful word, not just a name, we read in Avesta that Ahriman (Angra Mainyu) is a daeva (devil), so daeva is an Iranian origin word which means "devil", you can find similar words in other Iranian languages, whether those Iranian-speaking people were Zoroastrian or not.
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Posts: 112 		  Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Apr-2009 at 21:51
Zoroastrianism is an Iranian religion because it was practised by Iranian, not because it retains ancestral, Indo-European characteristics.

Why is it o hard to understand that Zoroastrianism is a revolutionary religion and its spread had an important effect on language?

Let me give you another example: In Latin, the days of the week were each dedicated to a god. Sunday, "Dies Solis", was dedicated to the Sun-god. However, the advent of Christianity imposed a change, because the sun was a pagan god. Therefore, the day was renamed "Lord's day", "dies dominicus", or "dominica" in Vulgar Latin, whence all the Romance languages have inherited it.

I can think of something vaguely similar happening in modern Iran: ties during the time of the Shah were considered something elegant. Now their use in public is all but inexistent, as they are seen as a symbol of a past era. Imagine the same thing happening when Zoroastrianism came about: one day the tie-wearing daeva were all the rage, next day they are bad.

Besides, if you read the article I mentioned, it brings evidence that the switch from "god" to "devil" was not altogether that abrupt (as I've made it sound above, jokingly,of course)
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Apr-2009 at 11:16
Cyrus, you must understand the religious context of the words. The usage can in fact switch for what is essentially political reasons. understand the impact of Zoroaster and you get a good idea how a name can switch. Its not simply about sounds.
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