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red clay View Drop Down
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Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: UK Doctors euthanizing patients
    Posted: 03-Nov-2012 at 14:00
It is exactly the issue.  But when it's spelled out like it is, it's difficult to disagree with it.  And if anyone here intends to stay and be a successful member, I suggest you read it again.
 
You don't want to get me fired up about this, as I can, and will bring up some truths that many will not like.  I used to avoid posting opinions, as to not offend anyone, but since no one seems to give a crap about my ideas and feelings, I'm about to change some things on a personal basis.
 
The RepRight PACs do not seem to care about small things like truth, facts etc.  It's perfectly fine with them to publish falsehoods and half truths.  If the folks they support will lie to get into office, what will they do once they achieve that?
These PACs are careful to not identify with any party or political agendas.  My favorite is "Americans For Job Security".  leave it to the Neo Cons to support something that doesn't exist.  A quote, "I can't stand the insecurity of Job Security".  Attributed to Red Clay Sr. when he became a "contract Engineer" and followed the money.
 
Oh, and if there is any doubt, yes, old Red's back is up.  Yukking it up will just make it worse.
 
Yes, we had 4 people killed overseas.  They were Foreign Service professionals, they knew the risks.
The death toll for this storm is 150, and still counting,  the lady on Staten Island who had her 2 young children pulled from her arms in her front yard and swept away by the waves, did not expect to be at risk in her own home.
 
The most economically important city in the US is shut down, and Newt Whatsisface grossly embarrassed himself by criticizing Obama for canceling 2 appearances in Va. due to the storm, but didn't cancel anything because of "Benghazi".  Confused  Apparently he felt the pres. should have risked the lives of a few thousand folks, for a political rally. 
Priorities!  Public Safety transcends politics, maybe Ol Newt should spend some time with the soon to be former Mayor of Atlantic City.  
 
 
 
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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Posts: 7392 		  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2012 at 18:41
''Public Safety transcends politics,.......''
Agreed.
The image ntl of an Obama in Vegas campaigning, during storm ops recovery for example, and raising funds does not however allow for it's non-obersvation and comment by anyone of any political bent. Nor commenting on the hypocrisy of the mainstream lib-leftist media in not allowing the same oppurtunity for the opposition. Presuming a fair and impartial venue in which to do so. The hypocrisy is deep on both sides. No doubt. But the greater sin is that in which we find the rhetoric being reported as proper or acceptable; if only conducive to the agenda of that being represented. And the non-allowance of equal representation by those who disagree. That's not tyranny it's fascist tyranny.
 
 
And to pretend it's not and or refuse to express an opinion simply because of/or it's politics as usual, here or elsewhere, is cowardice....imo.
 
I'm not big on that. So As I have noted and encouraged endlessly..all should opine, if willing, be they pro or con on an individual or party system, platforms and ideaologies and, how it might be defined....commended or critized.
 
It's called the American way...and is one of the reason I wore a uniform all those years....the defense of it.
 
And at my age...taint likely I'll change that attitude. Any more then you.Wink


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 03-Nov-2012 at 18:43
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Posts: 7392 		  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Nov-2012 at 18:50
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

''Public Safety transcends politics,.......''
Agreed.
The image ntl of an Obama in Vegas campaigning, during storm ops recovery for example, and raising funds does not however allow for it's non-obersvation and comment by anyone of any political bent. Nor commenting on the hypocrisy of the mainstream lib-leftist media in not allowing the same oppurtunity for the opposition. Presuming a fair and impartial venue in which to do so. The hypocrisy is deep on both sides. No doubt. But the greater sin is that in which we find the rhetoric being reported as proper or acceptable; if only conducive to the agenda of that being represented. And the non-allowance of equal representation by those who disagree. That's not tyranny it's fascist tyranny.
 
 
And to pretend it's not and or refuse to express an opinion simply because of/or it's politics as usual, here or elsewhere, is cowardice....imo.
 
I'm not big on that. So As I have noted and encouraged endlessly..all should opine, if willing, be they pro or con on an individual or party system, platforms and ideaologies and, how it might be defined....commended or critized.
 
It's called the American way...and is one of the reason I wore a uniform all those years....the defense of it.
 
And at my age...taint likely I'll change that attitude. Any more then you.Wink
As for this:
 
 
 
''You don't want to get me fired up about this, as I can, and will bring up some truths that many will not like. I used to avoid posting opinions, as to not offend anyone, but since no one seems to give a crap about my ideas and feelings, I'm about to change some things on a personal basis.''
 
 
Have at it...I wouldn't expect nor demand less.... nor would I want you to be other then you. Wink
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Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2012 at 07:39
Originally posted by Bobby

Originally posted by Nick1986

Healthcare should be free. It's immoral that the rich can pay to extend their lives while the poor suffer and die
Nothing is free.
 
 I would agree that those who cannot afford health care should be provided it, but through tax dollars. The problem is not whether a nation like the United States can afford health care for all its citizens but how it is provided. When you allow a government to dictate health care, to bureaucratize it, and adminster it, you get less health care for all. Government simply cannot work as efficiently as the private sector. If you want health care costs to rise, and health care technology to stagnate, then by all means allow the government to run it. If you want a superior product let the free market do it.  UPS and Fed Ex put the Post Office to shame in cost and efficiency. The lesson is clear.
 
 

I don't mind paying for a lifetime of medical care with tax taken from my wages, but it's wrong to pay extortionate prices for health insurance. Rich people can afford it, but everyone else will have to choose between the life of their child or paying this month's rent, energy and food bills. Our NHS is government-run and, despite the shortage of nurses, provides a good standard of care
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Posts: 7392 		  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Nov-2012 at 15:54
Your system...your country. Your taxes. I think it's bullshit.....but I don't live there nor do I pay taxes there.
 
You like it?...live with it then.
 
But ....when you come to the Llano...don't expect a huge acceptance or following to that ideology.
 
We will help, beyond your wildest expectations, when we see ya down and even before... or not...
 
that's their/my decision. But not because the goddamn government dictated we should.
 
Because we expect ya should be a man and responsible; and seek nothing less. When we see that... we will not only help..we will stand on the barricades with you. Any thing less is socialist, quasi commie bullshit....
 
 
And for that we will let you stand alone. Period.
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Posts: 1748 		  Quote Toltec Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2012 at 09:15
The mentality in America about helping other people seems very different in the US to the UK.



Edited by Toltec - 05-Nov-2012 at 09:16
Stupidity got us into this mess, why can't it get us out?

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Posts: 10226 		  Quote red clay Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2012 at 11:33
I 'm not sure where they got that info or how, but it appears to be an after the fact story.  There was nothing in any of our news reports here about this.  I'm not saying it's false, I'm saying it's unlikely that it happened quite this way.
The storm was at it's peak, the woman was understandably hysterical.  All of this was reported by "relatives" none of whom were on scene at the time.  In a situation like this, it's human nature to look for someone to blame.
I can tell you from more or less ground zero, the norm is neighbor helping neighbor.  I used up 3 new saw chains, cutting trees from driveways and around doors.  I didn't have any damage, but a lot of others did.
Note- Staten Island was absolutely flattened.  If in fact this story has some basis to it, those who did not help her were likely in fear of their own lives.
BTW- There was an evacuation order that apparently these people chose to ignore.  65 years of living on the Jersey Shore, or near enough to it, has taught me one vital thing, if the authorities tell you to get off the Islands, do it!  And worry about the validity of the order later.
 
Don't characterize our "mentality" based on one questionable account.
I have 2 cousins who were killed in the 50's, trying to rescue folks who ignored an evacuation order.
 
 
CV- Your reply to me reveals a proclivity to blather that exceeds the qualifications for Presidential Press Secretary.
 
 
 
 
 
 


Edited by red clay - 05-Nov-2012 at 12:36
"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
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Posts: 7392 		  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Nov-2012 at 20:28
Originally posted by red clay

I 'm not sure where they got that info or how, but it appears to be an after the fact story.  There was nothing in any of our news reports here about this.  I'm not saying it's false, I'm saying it's unlikely that it happened quite this way.
The storm was at it's peak, the woman was understandably hysterical.  All of this was reported by "relatives" none of whom were on scene at the time.  In a situation like this, it's human nature to look for someone to blame.
I can tell you from more or less ground zero, the norm is neighbor helping neighbor.  I used up 3 new saw chains, cutting trees from driveways and around doors.  I didn't have any damage, but a lot of others did.
Note- Staten Island was absolutely flattened.  If in fact this story has some basis to it, those who did not help her were likely in fear of their own lives.
BTW- There was an evacuation order that apparently these people chose to ignore.  65 years of living on the Jersey Shore, or near enough to it, has taught me one vital thing, if the authorities tell you to get off the Islands, do it!  And worry about the validity of the order later.
 
Don't characterize our "mentality" based on one questionable account.
I have 2 cousins who were killed in the 50's, trying to rescue folks who ignored an evacuation order.
 
 
CV- Your reply to me reveals a proclivity to blather that exceeds the qualifications for Presidential Press Secretary.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
High praise and recommendation old pard.Big smile One thing's fer sure I wouldn't be any worse then the fools we have seen riding that horse for the last 8 years.
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Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2012 at 06:49
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Your system...your country. Your taxes. I think it's bullshit.....but I don't live there nor do I pay taxes there.
 
You like it?...live with it then.
 
But ....when you come to the Llano...don't expect a huge acceptance or following to that ideology.
 
We will help, beyond your wildest expectations, when we see ya down and even before... or not...
 
that's their/my decision. But not because the goddamn government dictated we should.
 
Because we expect ya should be a man and responsible; and seek nothing less. When we see that... we will not only help..we will stand on the barricades with you. Any thing less is socialist, quasi commie bullshit....
 
 
And for that we will let you stand alone. Period.
Dare i say it, their duty to help their fellow-men is one of socialism's fundamental ideals, as is the value of hard workThumbs Up
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Posts: 7392 		  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Nov-2012 at 11:46
It's not based on political ideology but theologic. And they would not accept nor do they accept the analogy of politics as religion in practice. Except fer the godless heathens and atheists.
 
They do it because of their spirituality. And while they love politics the two are separate if not always appreciated and or condoned....even rationally understood. To include by themselves. Their mtns and high desert and plains people. Their like Red's Jersey shoreline folks...
 
 
They don't give a good god damn if you like them or not....but their fair minded and openhearted once ya know them...hardworking individuallists in the main. And the idea of being subjected to big government is a very definite no-no. Their legacy was to help because of their spirituality and fore bearers examples not because the state or Fed dictated that requirement.


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 06-Nov-2012 at 11:46
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Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jan-2013 at 17:28
British hospitals have recently introduced something new called the "Liverpool care pathway". Seriously ill people are left to die not out of neglect, but as a form of legalised murder (usually without the permission of the patient or their family). These doctors deserve to be struck off for their cruelty:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2229090/Daughters-heartbreak-fathers-death-Liverpool-Care-Pathway-familys-permission.html
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Posts: 162 		  Quote Azita Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2013 at 06:23
If a person becomes terminally ill, and is eventually reduced to such a low level of existence, is it the "right" thing to do to prolong their suffering?
Whilst im sure if you are a medical institution that will claim huge sums of money from the patients insurance, then the answer will be yes.

But if "You" are the patient, lying in misery will this still be the same answer?

Human life isnt really valued, Six million children die of hunger every year, 100,000(?) have died in the Invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Personally, when im that desperately ill, miserabley suffering with no prospect of recovery, hook me up to the morphine drip and turn on full.

Now as for alleged neglecting a person to death, the laws say  that the doctors must do no harm, so the only way to relieve this persons suffering is to medicate then for pain and stop life prolonging treatment.
Do "we " not need to look at this, with a view to a "better" way of stopping this persons suffering?
What is so very wrong with Euthanasia ( the  good death)?

"but one person might be Euthanasied against their will" i hear some say.

But what about all those that have been killed and staved to death against their will, it seem that the rest of the world didn't mind all that suffering and death, even causing much of it.

Yet we MUST prolong the life of a suffering person at all costs, oh wait AS LONG AS THEY LIVE IN THE WESTERN WORLD.

Azita
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Posts: 7392 		  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2013 at 08:20
"but one person might be Euthanized against their will" i hear some say.
Then that was one too many. Which in part is why it remains a detractor.
As for cultural differences and developmental experience.....let that be the law of the people. that which they choose; when grappling with the 'how to' deal with aging and dying...
...but not simple because government concerned with cost, due to their own inefficiency, decides to orchestrate death panels and murder as a responsible fiscal alternative in reducing the cost expended. Or for any other reason that might suit a particular agenda of bigotry, racism and genocide and, maintence of power in the hands of a select body versus the population at large.
But your right about one thing...the value of human life has always been cheap...no matter the cost to include children...
...to include the wars in Iraq and Astan. Ya want better examples? Stalin and Hitler spring to mind. And a lot, lot more long, long before them.
Those covert attempted moral, political and military slights ya throw versus the west's countering of Islamist terrorism and regional dictatorial states in the mid-east, in the 20th-21st ce, doesn't come close in numbers alone.Wink
But it was a nice try.



Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 10-Jan-2013 at 08:23
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Posts: 162 		  Quote Azita Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2013 at 10:25
Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis


...to include the wars in Iraq and Astan. Ya want better examples? Stalin and Hitler spring to mind. And a lot, lot more long, long before them.


Unsure where "Astan" is.
Hitler and the US/UK ally Stalin, were indeed monsters, but i considered this thread about actions today, not 70yrs ago, am in error?


Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Those covert attempted moral, political and military slights ya throw versus the west's countering of Islamist terrorism and regional dictatorial states in the mid-east, in the 20th-21st ce, doesn't come close in numbers alone.Wink
But it was a nice try.


Countering of Islamic terrorism in Iraq!!!!!!!!!  wow, do you mean that?
Supporting regional dictators!!!! Like the US did with Saddam?
Afghanistan, the US/UK,  funded "terrorism"  against the Soviets for long  enough and in Ireland.

But am i to understand you correctly here, the life of a suffering miserable old British person wishing an end, is more valuable than the life of an innocent civilian killed by US/UK forces in their quest to kill a suspected terrorist?
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Posts: 7392 		  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2013 at 04:23
Originally posted by Azita

Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis


...to include the wars in Iraq and Astana want better examples? Stalin and Hitler spring to mind. And a lot, lot more long, long before them.


Unsure where "Satan" is.
Hitler and the US/UK ally Stalin, were indeed monsters, but i considered this thread about actions today, not 70yrs ago, am in error?


Originally posted by Centrix Vigilis

Those covert attempted moral, political and military slights ya throw versus the west's countering of Islamist terrorism and regional dictatorial states in the mid-east, in the 20th-21st ce, doesn't come close in numbers alone.Wink
But it was a nice try.


Countering of Islamic terrorism in Iraq!!!!!!!!!  wow, do you mean that?
Supporting regional dictators!!!! Like the US did with Saddam?
Afghanistan, the US/UK,  funded "terrorism"  against the Soviets for long  enough and in Ireland.

But am i to understand you correctly here, the life of a suffering miserable old British person wishing an end, is more valuable than the life of an innocent civilian killed by US/UK forces in their quest to kill a suspected terrorist?


 
 
1. The point in comparison is that your reference western ops in the 'me' is small potatoes compared to just those two examples; with many others available....which is to say your anti-american bias is showing.
 
2. ref the ole Brit lady/man dying that's Britain's call not mine.
 
 
As for those lost due to collateral action in the fight against terror? Nor are all those alleged casualties victims of the west; but AQ and the Tali thrown in as well. Life and war is hell. Both had merit both had value.
 
Ntl Life is cheap in the reality of international realpolitik. And my version (and my allies) of freedom and democracy ain't cheap to defend. On anybody's side. 
 
BL. Tell the assholes attempting to disrupt it that they should stop this Islamist, radical, theological bullshit. And genocidal rhetoric coupled with murder and mayhem of innocents not to mention attempts to destroy sovereign states, their cultures and citizens they oppose and get over it.
 
 
Maybe the killing will stop.
 
Till then?
 
Life and war is hell.


Edited by Centrix Vigilis - 11-Jan-2013 at 04:28
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Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2013 at 19:56
Originally posted by Azita

If a person becomes terminally ill, and is eventually reduced to such a low level of existence, is it the "right" thing to do to prolong their suffering?
Whilst im sure if you are a medical institution that will claim huge sums of money from the patients insurance, then the answer will be yes.

But if "You" are the patient, lying in misery will this still be the same answer?

Human life isnt really valued, Six million children die of hunger every year, 100,000(?) have died in the Invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan.

Personally, when im that desperately ill, miserabley suffering with no prospect of recovery, hook me up to the morphine drip and turn on full.

Now as for alleged neglecting a person to death, the laws say  that the doctors must do no harm, so the only way to relieve this persons suffering is to medicate then for pain and stop life prolonging treatment.
Do "we " not need to look at this, with a view to a "better" way of stopping this persons suffering?
What is so very wrong with Euthanasia ( the  good death)?

"but one person might be Euthanasied against their will" i hear some say.

But what about all those that have been killed and staved to death against their will, it seem that the rest of the world didn't mind all that suffering and death, even causing much of it.

Yet we MUST prolong the life of a suffering person at all costs, oh wait AS LONG AS THEY LIVE IN THE WESTERN WORLD.

Azita

Azita, active euthanasia is evil as it turns doctors into executioners. If a terminally ill patient wants to die, they must do it by their own hand. Passive euthanasia (refusing treatment) is acceptable if the patient consents to it. However, the Liverpool Care Pathway is immoral as the patient has no choice
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Posts: 162 		  Quote Azita Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2013 at 08:37

Hello Nick,

Well i do agree that the Liverpool pathway, is NOT the way i would like to die. BUT it seems the only way open due to British law.

i have to disagree that euthanasia is evil, i consider making this people live on in misery is evil.

What if a patient cannot die by their own hand?

Would you, my dear Nick, want to to suffer this way? Or simply slip away. How about watching loved ones suffer horribly, do we selfishly want them to live as long as they can , to delay our own sense of loss and pain?

In the mail today  ( yes i know the daily bile)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2261985/Belgian-twin-brothers-killed-doctors-choosing-euthanasia-able-again.html

Would not YOU choose this as well under the circumstances?

Regards

Azita
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Posts: 7940 		  Quote Nick1986 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2013 at 14:06
Originally posted by Azita


Hello Nick,

Well i do agree that the Liverpool pathway, is NOT the way i would like to die. BUT it seems the only way open due to British law.

i have to disagree that euthanasia is evil, i consider making this people live on in misery is evil.

What if a patient cannot die by their own hand?

Would you, my dear Nick, want to to suffer this way? Or simply slip away. How about watching loved ones suffer horribly, do we selfishly want them to live as long as they can , to delay our own sense of loss and pain?

In the mail today  ( yes i know the daily bile)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2261985/Belgian-twin-brothers-killed-doctors-choosing-euthanasia-able-again.html

Would not YOU choose this as well under the circumstances?

Regards

Azita



If i had dementia or a terminal illness i'd put a bullet through my brain while i'm still in control of my body. Giving a dying loved one drugs to ease the pain is OK, but deliberately killing them with poison is murder, regardless of whether they want to die or not
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Posts: 7392 		  Quote Centrix Vigilis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2013 at 14:16
Originally posted by Nick1986

Originally posted by Azita


Hello Nick,

Well i do agree that the Liverpool pathway, is NOT the way i would like to die. BUT it seems the only way open due to British law.

i have to disagree that euthanasia is evil, i consider making this people live on in misery is evil.

What if a patient cannot die by their own hand?

Would you, my dear Nick, want to to suffer this way? Or simply slip away. How about watching loved ones suffer horribly, do we selfishly want them to live as long as they can , to delay our own sense of loss and pain?

In the mail today  ( yes i know the daily bile)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2261985/Belgian-twin-brothers-killed-doctors-choosing-euthanasia-able-again.html

Would not YOU choose this as well under the circumstances?

Regards

Azita



If i had dementia or a terminal illness i'd put a bullet through my brain while i'm still in control of my body. Giving a dying loved one drugs to ease the pain is OK, but deliberately killing them with poison is murder, regardless of whether they want to die or not
 
 
 
 
 
BANG! and the gavel just slammed down.
 
And the judge's name was Hippocrates.
 
 
 
 
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Hippocratic Oath: Classical Version

I swear by Apollo Physician and Asclepius and Hygieia and Panaceia and all the gods and goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfill according to my ability and judgment this oath and this covenant:

To hold him who has taught me this art as equal to my parents and to live my life in partnership with him, and if he is in need of money to give him a share of mine, and to regard his offspring as equal to my brothers in male lineage and to teach them this art—if they desire to learn it—without fee and covenant; to give a share of precepts and oral instruction and all the other learning to my sons and to the sons of him who has instructed me and to pupils who have signed the covenant and have taken an oath according to the medical law, but no one else.

I will apply dietetic measures for the benefit of the sick according to my ability and judgment; I will keep them from harm and injustice.

I will neither give a deadly drug to anybody who asked for it, nor will I make a suggestion to this effect. Similarly I will not give to a woman an abortive remedy. In purity and holiness I will guard my life and my art.

I will not use the knife, not even on sufferers from stone, but will withdraw in favor of such men as are engaged in this work.

Whatever houses I may visit, I will come for the benefit of the sick, remaining free of all intentional injustice, of all mischief and in particular of sexual relations with both female and male persons, be they free or slaves.

What I may see or hear in the course of the treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep to myself, holding such things shameful to be spoken about.

If I fulfill this oath and do not violate it, may it be granted to me to enjoy life and art, being honored with fame among all men for all time to come; if I transgress it and swear falsely, may the opposite of all this be my lot.

—Translation from the Greek by Ludwig Edelstein. From The Hippocratic Oath: Text, Translation, and Interpretation, by Ludwig Edelstein. Baltimore: Johns Hopkins Press, 1943.

 

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Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true'

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Azita View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian

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Joined: 13-Oct-2012
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Posts: 162 		  Quote Azita Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jan-2013 at 14:19
Ok, so why cant "one" be issued with a "suicide pill" instead of using the gun?
A bullet in the head makes rather a mess, not nice for family or those that have to deal with the body.

It is only murder because British law says it is. So i say that the law needs to change.

But i take your point, that you agree that one should be able to kill oneself.

Perhaps you ( not trying to patronise) have not been close to this issue on a personal level, I hope you never are, but i feel it might change your perspective.

Regards

Azita
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