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Murtaza
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Topic: What is the bravest act in history? Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 15:20 |
I think, when hard time comes, to die is a easy thing, To live is more difficult thing and need more balls.
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iskenderani
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Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 15:22 |
Originally posted by Temujin
so you all think the assault on the world trade center was a heroic act or what? |
If u look at it from the terrorists eyes ..... yes it is a heroic act... but it is NOT a military act. They were NOT Iraqi soldiers attacking American soldiers in America...They were a terrorist group , sacrificing their lives NOT against enemy soldiers , but against innocent humans . So this makes a lot of difference. They didnt protect their country , they protected their religious fanatism...Take the Japanese .... Their act was heroic , altough it was against the free world and supporting a fascist regime.... I dont examine the politics.... I examine the act itself...Kamikaze's act was pure military .... The terroristic act on the twins , was not . It was a political act...
Isk..
Edited by iskenderani
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Heraclius
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Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 15:33 |
Originally posted by Murtaza
I think, when hard time comes, to die is a easy thing, To live is more difficult thing and need more balls |
I know exactly what you mean, but I still think that to psych yourself up to give your life to a cause you believe to be right (whether its right or not is a point of view) takes some bravery. It doesnt mean the act was a brave one it was cowardly to target civilians, but the men who did it knowing their own death was imminent had some bravery surely.
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A tomb now suffices him for whom the world was not enough.
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Murtaza
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Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 15:43 |
Yes They were brave.
Infact They are not attacking civilians, They are attacking financial power of USA.
Or this is what they think
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aknc
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Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 17:30 |
Originally posted by Heraclius
The defence of Constantinople 1453, a true example alongside Thermopylae of a vigorous and desperately brave struggle for survival. |
i'd vote for the first defence agianst the janissaries in the big breach(first because they broke in the secon time)
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"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
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Spartakus
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Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 17:36 |
There is no such thing as 'bravest act'.A brave act with the same significance can be found at all periods of history,and in numerous battles.
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"There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. "
--- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996)
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Sarmata
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Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 20:02 |
The Polish Home Army Uprising of 1944. Though I do agree the Warsaw Ghetto was a very brave act indeed, the one in 1944 was a bigger event in my opinion and bigger in every aspect. NOT Saying that the Warsaw Ghetto upsrising was irrelevant or some small event, IMO I just think the '44 Warsaw Uprising was a much bigger event.
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Guests
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Posted: 28-Jun-2005 at 21:57 |
well General Custer's final battle was quite brave...lol
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 29-Jun-2005 at 02:29 |
One that fills me with admiration is Constantine Palaeologos in 1453, after the wall collapse Constantinople still didn't give in. The Emperor and his fellow commanders died, the soldiers fought in the streets, and finally after the resisters were killed the city fell. The city was not surrendered after the walls collapsed.
One act of bravery is that of 70 Australian soldiers who, with the Japanese invasion of the territory of New Guinea, decided to oppose the attackers. The tiny garrison of men had to hold off an invasion force comprising several thousand men in 1941. The Japanese had as their objective Port Moresby, with the capture of which they would gain the initiative against the Australians. The capture of the city would give the Japanese the use of a major airfield as well as a depp water port from which they would be able to launch attacks against the Australian mainland itself. Before they could reach it they needed to traverse jungle laden mountainous terrain. For weeks on end the 70 man strong Australian garrison harassed the Japanese incessantly with guerilla raids. Stricken with lack of supplies and sheer exhaustion from striking out in continuous raids, the Australians held up the advance of tha Japanese for weeks, giving the commanders at home precious time to mobilize reinforcements to beat back the enemy. So ferocious were the attacks and so frequent from that handful of men that the Japanese thought they were actually outnumbered! For their courage and persistance in the face of terrible odds, those men were rewarded knowing that their efforts gave their country the time it needed to defeat the biggest threat it had ever faced.
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Richard XIII
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Posted: 29-Jun-2005 at 05:54 |
Giordano Bruno (and please not anoither greeks-turks war)
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"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details."
Albert Einstein
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aknc
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Posted: 29-Jun-2005 at 10:27 |
Originally posted by Spartakus
There is no such thing as 'bravest act'.A brave act with the same significance can be found at all periods of history,and in numerous battles. |
true actually
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"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
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kotumeyil
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Posted: 29-Jun-2005 at 11:33 |
Poet Nesimi and Hallac-i Mansur
As a result of their tasavvuf philosophy they said "I'm God (En'el Hakk)", i. e. God and the whole universe(including humans) are unique by love and because of this "sin" one was skinned the other was crucified along with other tortures... (They were aware of their ends)
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Temujin
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Posted: 29-Jun-2005 at 15:35 |
suicide attacks or making last stands is never heroic just plain stupid. runnign toward an enemy trench udner full enemy fire, throwing a grenade in and making it back to the own trench is bravery; taking a bunch of grenades, wrapping them aroudn the body and suicide jump into the other trench is stuipd. making a last stand against a favourable enemy against all odds is stupid, the enemy will move on and take what he wants anyways; under the same situation retreat and try to defeat him in small prologned skirmishes or to lure him into a prepared ambush and to ultimately defeat him this way is the way of sucess. if anybody has doubts about what i said just look at WW2 and see how well the fight to the last man doctrine worked for Germans and Japansese...or the Greeks at Thermopylae for that matter...
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aknc
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Posted: 29-Jun-2005 at 17:41 |
Originally posted by Constantine XI
One that fills me with admiration is Constantine Palaeologos in 1453, after the wall collapse Constantinople still didn't give in. The Emperor and his fellow commanders died, the soldiers fought in the streets, and finally after the resisters were killed the city fell. The city was not surrendered after the walls collapsed.
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No.They ran away as soon as the news of turks getting in came
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"I am the scourage of god appointed to chastise you,since no one knows the remedy for your iniquity exept me.You are wicked,but I am more wicked than you,so be silent!"
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Komnenos
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Posted: 29-Jun-2005 at 18:17 |
Originally posted by Heraclius
The defence of Constantinople 1453, a true example alongside Thermopylae of a vigorous and desperately bravestruggle for survival. |
Before all we ex-Byzantine emperors get carried away, I would like to point out that Constantinople in 1453 is only example under many of a medieval city defending itself bravely against an overwhelming besieging force. There were thousands of others towns who fought with the same desperation and heroism against the inevitable.
Constantinople might have been the historically most significant,but that doesn't make it automatically the bravest.
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charles brough
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Posted: 29-Jun-2005 at 18:20 |
The discussion has reached an important question. Is the act of a suicide bomber a "heroic act?" I don't think there is any question that it takes a lot of "guts". It takes bravery, but is it "heroic" to take your life murdering other and helpless civilians?
There is no question that Fundamentalist Islam is the underdog and has had to seek other ways of defending its identity, but even so, it is a new low in the history of warefare for our and Islamic civilization. We are all aware of a time in our history when armies marched against each other. Now we fly over them and gleefully rain death and destruction on them. We fire missiles at them from beyond the horizon or from under the ocean. We assasinate important people, float counterfit money, use depleated uranium and stock atomic bombs. Yet, the deliberate killing of civilians in restaurants and busses is a new low.
The important thing about it is that it works. It is a successful strategy. It caused Spain and the Philappines to take their troops out of Iraq. It aggrivated us into invading Islam and, hence, drive more young Muslim men into terrorism. It works. They attack us and we attack them so that we increase their numbers. It is called "a retaliatory partnership" and we learned it from israel. It will succeed in getting Bush re-elected because Iran is next.
charles
http://humanpurpose.simplenet.com
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Belisarius
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Posted: 29-Jun-2005 at 19:05 |
Originally posted by Komnenos
Before all we ex-Byzantine emperors get carried away,
I would like to point out that Constantinople in 1453 is only example
under many of a medieval city defending itself bravely against an
overwhelming besieging force. There were thousands of others towns who
fought with the same desperation and heroism against the inevitable. Constantinople might have been the historically most significant,but that doesn't make it automatically the bravest. |
Forgive me, basileus, but I must disagree. The defense of
Constantinople is one of the more heroic acts, even when compared with
other similar situations.
First of all, there is the patriotic acts of Constantine Paleologus.
Mehmed gave him the chance to rule unthreatened in Mystras, but he
refused, choosing to die defending his people.
As for the overwhelming besieging force, the defenders of
Constantinople were outnumbered more than 14 to 1, and of that small
number, very few were actually soldiers. Against them was the one of
the most best, state-of-the-art armies of the time. Among the
more than 100,000 Ottomans were 20,000 Janissaries, arguably the most
elite military orders of the time. In addition to this was the fleet
the blockaded the city. At the time, the population of Constantinople
was about 50,000, meaning that the invading force outnumbered even the
city's entire population. Despite all this, they managed to hold out
for a month.
What sets this apart from other similar situations was that the
situation was truly hopeless and yet they fought on. In those other
situations, the Alamo or Wake Island for example, there was always the
chance that if they held out long enough, a relief force would come or
there would be at least hope that a relief force would come. In the
Siege of Constantinople, they knew no such help would come.
You know, I have always wished I could go back in time and incite the
European and Janissary divisions to defect. Or that I could go forward
in time and then go back and wipe out the Ottomans with futuristic
weapons. Hehe....
Edited by Belisarius
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 29-Jun-2005 at 20:59 |
I am with Belisarius on this one. Let's not turn this into another Byzantine dominated post, but I honestly can't help but admire 1453. Had the Byzantines fought with such courage in the previous few centuries they no doubt would have continued as a viable nation.
Thinking of the personal example of Constantine Palaeologos is truly an inspiration to deeds of bravery, he was a most virtuous man.
Oh, also most sources I find put the population of Constantinople at the time at just 30,000 people, only a little around 5,000 of them men of fighting age.
Also Constantine Palaeologos stayed and fought even when the walls came down, despite the fact he could have escaped. A number of his senior officers remained with him.
Again, start another post about this topic if you like, let's not get sidetracked.
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Komnenos
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Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 06:07 |
Originally posted by Constantine XI
I am with Belisarius on this one. Let's not turn this into another Byzantine dominated post, but I honestly can't help but admire 1453. Had the Byzantines fought with such courage in the previous few centuries they no doubt would have continued as a viable nation. |
Don't get me wrong here.
I don't want to take anything away from the heroic and desperate defense of Constantinople in 1453 and the dignified end of the last Byzantine Emperor, I just wanted to point out that such bravery was not such an unique event.
The last stand of the Cathars comes to mind, the siege of Montsegur in 1244, were 150 soldiers and a few hundred women and children defied the French Royal Army of more than 6000 for over 9 months, and where most of Cathars rather choose death on the stake than renouncing their faith.
On a much smaller scale, maybe, but not less brave.
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Jalisco Lancer
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Posted: 30-Jun-2005 at 12:38 |
I do believe that self sacrifice is the ultimate probe of bravery. However, when conducted to inflict damage on unarmed civilians lacks entirely of bravery and it is replaced by fanatism and madness.
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