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Topic ClosedProtest to the Lack of Good Threads in Asian History Section

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Direct Link To This Post Topic: Protest to the Lack of Good Threads in Asian History Section
    Posted: 17-Nov-2005 at 15:08
Originally posted by demon

 
must say the quality of the threads in Asian History is vastly inferior to those in some other sections.  When I compare the recent threads in the Steppe History section and the Asian History section, I must say the Steppe History section's more recent threads have a much more scholarly tone. 

Most of the more recent Asian History threads contain nothing but China/Korea/Japan bashing/attack and couterattack.  Except for a few threads such as Ancient Chinese seigeweapons, where forumers contribute scholarly information to the threads, there is not much substance and information.

Help! I implore fellow forumers to make this section more scholarly.  When forumers are debating a topic, please stay on topic and use historical examples to support claims.  This is a place for intellectual and historical debates, not mindless trolling and hate.

 

Thank you!

poirot

It's not really the quality we are missing.  Asian history is rich.  But it's the right intellectuals we are missing.  There's not enough smart people in Asian threads enough to keep a good thread moving.

 

I am working with Gubook to start new threads that have a more scholarly approach.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2005 at 15:29

and I apologize to other forummers for this unfairly lenient treatment of NCAA.

I've seen you in other posts and you appear to be a good sport, and I surmise from your name that you're a sport fan, probably of American football, and I'm a big American football fan myself.  I'd therefore hate to ban you.

I take this as your  show of golden mean of confucianism.

You need not to apologize, im not going to appreciate it anyway. But at least you acknowledged the fact yourself that you failed to do your job.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2005 at 15:32
Originally posted by demon

 
must say the quality of the threads in Asian History is vastly inferior to those in some other sections.  When I compare the recent threads in the Steppe History section and the Asian History section, I must say the Steppe History section's more recent threads have a much more scholarly tone. 

Most of the more recent Asian History threads contain nothing but China/Korea/Japan bashing/attack and couterattack.  Except for a few threads such as Ancient Chinese seigeweapons, where forumers contribute scholarly information to the threads, there is not much substance and information.

Help! I implore fellow forumers to make this section more scholarly.  When forumers are debating a topic, please stay on topic and use historical examples to support claims.  This is a place for intellectual and historical debates, not mindless trolling and hate.

 

Thank you!

poirot

It's not really the quality we are missing.  Asian history is rich.  But it's the right intellectuals we are missing.  There's not enough smart people in Asian threads enough to keep a good thread moving.

 



Does anyone gave a warning to this person?

He's simply implying that we are stupid, not smart enough to produce decent discussion.

All the posts that we have made while wasting our time, are toilet tissue to this person.

If he can imply that other people are stupid, he should at least take a warning, to be fair.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2005 at 15:37
Originally posted by Beijingguy

Ok, NCAA, i offer one last and only chance to telling you this, while most of your posts are nationalistic, with remarks inclined to racism.

I do agree with some points of yours regarding Mongol history, for example, its quite true like you said that Chinggis didnt necessarily need to be at war with  the Khwarezm, as indeed he sent a trading delegation(instead of an army initially) of 450 men with 500 camel carrying goods to open trade relations with the Khwarezm. But the governor of EdaLa city YiNaLeChuHei(HaiErHan) murdered all Mongols and took all the goods.

This breached the previous treaty between the 2 nations, and angered Chinggis greatly, but unlike as perhaps many would assume that actually Chinggis didnt just send army to retaliate, but instead he send 3 special emissaries headed by BaHela to the Khwarezm to inquire the incident and demanded hand over of the guilty to the Mongol. But the Ala' ad-Din Muhammad Shah refused and had BaHela killed, while the other 2 emissaries got their beard shaved as a way of intimidation by the Khwarezm.

That made Chinggis really furious, and the war became inevitable.

I hope this would bring some "common sense".



Ok. I got it.

Then please tell me why there is no action taken againt the member who said "mongols are not to be reasoned with"? He must be a troller since it is total nonsense.






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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2005 at 16:20

Originally posted by NCAA

Does anyone gave a warning to this person?

He's simply implying that we are stupid, not smart enough to produce decent discussion.

All the posts that we have made while wasting our time, are toilet tissue to this person.

If he can imply that other people are stupid, he should at least take a warning, to be fair.

You can't expect the mods to be monitoring the boards 24/7.  It happens that I went out to lunch when he made his comments.

In all fairness, his comment that we are not smart enough would include himself.  In that case, it's difficult to make a strong case that he was trying to insult someone, especially since he did not pinpoint any individual.  He is nonetheless warned (see below.)



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2005 at 16:20

Originally posted by NCAA

Ok. I got it.

Then please tell me why there is no action taken againt the member who said "mongols are not to be reasoned with"? He must be a troller since it is total nonsense.

If you can find out who said this, I'll issue him a warning.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2005 at 16:28

[QUOTE=demon] It's not really the quality we are missing.  Asian history is rich.  But it's the right intellectuals we are missing.  There's not enough smart people in Asian threads enough to keep a good thread moving./QUOTE]

Warning: potential ad hominem comment.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2005 at 16:34
Originally posted by NCAA

Originally posted by Beijingguy

Ok, NCAA, i offer one last and only chance to telling you this, while most of your posts are nationalistic, with remarks inclined to racism.

I do agree with some points of yours regarding Mongol history, for example, its quite true like you said that Chinggis didnt necessarily need to be at war with  the Khwarezm, as indeed he sent a trading delegation(instead of an army initially) of 450 men with 500 camel carrying goods to open trade relations with the Khwarezm. But the governor of EdaLa city YiNaLeChuHei(HaiErHan) murdered all Mongols and took all the goods.

This breached the previous treaty between the 2 nations, and angered Chinggis greatly, but unlike as perhaps many would assume that actually Chinggis didnt just send army to retaliate, but instead he send 3 special emissaries headed by BaHela to the Khwarezm to inquire the incident and demanded hand over of the guilty to the Mongol. But the Ala' ad-Din Muhammad Shah refused and had BaHela killed, while the other 2 emissaries got their beard shaved as a way of intimidation by the Khwarezm.

That made Chinggis really furious, and the war became inevitable.

I hope this would bring some "common sense".



Ok. I got it.

Then please tell me why there is no action taken againt the member who said "mongols are not to be reasoned with"? He must be a troller since it is total nonsense.




From the example of Khwarezm i gave you, you should understand what i tried otherwisely to tell you by using your nation's own history, that arrogance towards others will draw oneself into trouble, look at the example of Khwarezm. Their arrogance towards the Mongol nation made them pay dearly.

And im against any racism, if some one calling todays Mongols "bunch of bloodsucking heathens" simply because what happened in the past, then i would urge the moderators to take action against such just the same as i'd urge them to take action against similar behaviours ofyours. But i care about Asian section most. Thats why exactly i said " i dont look at 21th century Mongols as an ever and only-menacing enemy of China, consider this is not middle-age anymore".

And you didnt give me any chance to let me tell you what i talked with the Outer-Mongolian girl who mistook me as her fellow, under friendly atmosphere, we were talking about history of Chinggis and Kubilaikhan, without any attach to political or racial bias.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2005 at 18:21

I can see why NCAA would be angry at the Chinese. Hasnt Gengis Kahn been portrayed as a Chinese man by the PRC?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2005 at 18:35
Originally posted by Loknar

I can see why NCAA would be angry at the Chinese. Hasnt Gengis Kahn been portrayed as a Chinese man by the PRC?

That's like hating all Americans for what the Bush presidency does.  Not all Chinese agree with the PRC (and I'm not certain if the PRC has made a definitive statement about this.  Even if they did, my point stands the same: you can't equate the PRC government with all Chinese in the world.)  Furthermore, disagreement is not a license for personal attacks.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2005 at 18:39
Originally posted by MengTzu

Originally posted by Loknar

I can see why NCAA would be angry at the Chinese. Hasnt Gengis Kahn been portrayed as a Chinese man by the PRC?

That's like hating all Americans for what the Bush presidency does.  Not all Chinese agree with the PRC (and I'm not certain if the PRC has made a definitive statement about this.  Even if they did, my point stands the same: you can't equate the PRC government with all Chinese in the world.)  Furthermore, disagreement is not a license for personal attacks.

 

Actually, you're right about all of that. I didnt mean to say all Chinese people.

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2005 at 20:44
Originally posted by Loknar

I can see why NCAA would be angry at the Chinese. Hasnt Gengis Kahn been portrayed as a Chinese man by the PRC?

You havent kept a good track of his behaviours or you wouldnt ask this ignorant and irrelevent question.

I dont know what of NCAA makes other chinese forumers argued with him, but for me, i merely exchanged some of my personal experiences, thats neither necessarily attached to political nor racial divergence. And has nothing to do with what you stated here, you need to stop trying to mislead, and divert attentions.

Check that thread which got NCAA the warnings, and check the posts and replies between me and him, then you can come back and  tell yourself why i was offended.

You have the right to protest to History Channel's accuracy, so with the same manner i protest to your ignorance regarding  this matter.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2005 at 20:53
Originally posted by MengTzu

Originally posted by Loknar

I can see why NCAA would be angry at the Chinese. Hasnt Gengis Kahn been portrayed as a Chinese man by the PRC?

That's like hating all Americans for what the Bush presidency does.  Not all Chinese agree with the PRC (and I'm not certain if the PRC has made a definitive statement about this.  Even if they did, my point stands the same: you can't equate the PRC government with all Chinese in the world.)  Furthermore, disagreement is not a license for personal attacks.

Then what makes you failed to react quickly to such racist behaviours, or rather those behaviours thats obviously violated the rules of this forum. GJ atleast gave him a verbal warning, what did you do as a moderator?

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2005 at 20:59

Originally posted by Beijingguy

Then what makes you failed to react quickly to such racist behaviours, or rather those behaviours thats obviously violated the rules of this forum. GJ atleast gave him a verbal warning, what did you do as a moderator?

I wasn't even here until very recently.  Look, I was a global mod.  I wasn't even named a mod of this particular forum, so I have no particular responsibility for this forum (you can blame me as much as you can blame any mod.  Tobodai is on sabbatical.)  I just happened to stumble upon his remarks today.  When I said "I wish I had stepped in earlier," I should've said "I wish I had seen this earlier."  I had no idea what was going on until today.  I'm a mod, but I don't go on here 24/7.

Things are different from today: I've just been named a mod for this forum.  I'll try my best.  As it is, this is perhaps the most heated forum of all (and ironically, it is severely lacking in serious academic discussions.)

If you want more efficient mod work, you guys can help us out: report.  I can't be here 24/7.  You guys can help me by reporting.

Btw: advice (not warning) regarding your comment that Loknar's question is "ignorant."  It's one thing to follow forum rules, it's another thing (also important) to be tactful.  Let's not create the occassion where angry debates can result from.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2005 at 22:23
Originally posted by MengTzu

Originally posted by Beijingguy

Then what makes you failed to react quickly to such racist behaviours, or rather those behaviours thats obviously violated the rules of this forum. GJ atleast gave him a verbal warning, what did you do as a moderator?

I wasn't even here until very recently.  Look, I was a global mod.  I wasn't even named a mod of this particular forum, so I have no particular responsibility for this forum (you can blame me as much as you can blame any mod.  Tobodai is on sabbatical.)  I just happened to stumble upon his remarks today.  When I said "I wish I had stepped in earlier," I should've said "I wish I had seen this earlier."  I had no idea what was going on until today.  I'm a mod, but I don't go on here 24/7.

Things are different from today: I've just been named a mod for this forum.  I'll try my best.  As it is, this is perhaps the most heated forum of all (and ironically, it is severely lacking in serious academic discussions.)

If you want more efficient mod work, you guys can help us out: report.  I can't be here 24/7.  You guys can help me by reporting.

Btw: advice (not warning) regarding your comment that Loknar's question is "ignorant."  It's one thing to follow forum rules, it's another thing (also important) to be tactful.  Let's not create the occassion where angry debates can result from.

I know you are not specially assigned to this section, still, when you posted your reply to NCAA in that thread, those racist remarks were already there  in his previous posts, but you failed to notice and "advice" to him then, compare the frequency of your "advice"  to me. Perhaps you are not responsible as a global mod but  as a viewer of the thread, you are still responsible for yourself to have better and more comprehensive understanding of the thread by studying other forumers who participated there,because you failed to do so, you failed to realize the problem quickly as a viewer, also failed to react quickly as a mod. Despite you are not responsible for the section, you are still responsible for the matter, since you are part of the team, and the section is part of the forum.

Besides what happened around this heated thread does make me seriously question the efficiency of those who supposed to guard the forum rules.

It is still acceptable if this section is less academic, but unacceptable if ther e are too much racist remarks or those kind of behaviours breaching the forum rules but less counter-measures. The difference is that of quality and that of credibility.

Regarding the "advice", im sorry,i hold no golden mean of confucianism. Im a simple straight person, ignorance is ignorance. From what i have  listed  of NCAA's remarks(which mostly were directed at me) here, and what Loknor tried to assert in his, i cannot find another proper "tactical" word than using the word "ignorance" to say of him.

And i retain that position. Whether this could result in angry debates, its only what you think, as perhaps yet again you failed to notice one thing, that although NCAA used many racist remarks regarding the Chinese, i never used same sort of language regarding his nation.

Since we all want the section  to be more "academic", then i have no doubt he will not follow the path of that of NCAA.



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2005 at 22:39
Originally posted by Beijingguy

Originally posted by NCAA

Originally posted by Beijingguy

Ok, NCAA, i offer one last and only chance to telling you this, while most of your posts are nationalistic, with remarks inclined to racism.

I do agree with some points of yours regarding Mongol history, for example, its quite true like you said that Chinggis didnt necessarily need to be at war with  the Khwarezm, as indeed he sent a trading delegation(instead of an army initially) of 450 men with 500 camel carrying goods to open trade relations with the Khwarezm. But the governor of EdaLa city YiNaLeChuHei(HaiErHan) murdered all Mongols and took all the goods.

This breached the previous treaty between the 2 nations, and angered Chinggis greatly, but unlike as perhaps many would assume that actually Chinggis didnt just send army to retaliate, but instead he send 3 special emissaries headed by BaHela to the Khwarezm to inquire the incident and demanded hand over of the guilty to the Mongol. But the Ala' ad-Din Muhammad Shah refused and had BaHela killed, while the other 2 emissaries got their beard shaved as a way of intimidation by the Khwarezm.

That made Chinggis really furious, and the war became inevitable.

I hope this would bring some "common sense".



Ok. I got it.

Then please tell me why there is no action taken againt the member who said "mongols are not to be reasoned with"? He must be a troller since it is total nonsense.




From the example of Khwarezm i gave you, you should understand what i tried otherwisely to tell you by using your nation's own history, that arrogance towards others will draw oneself into trouble, look at the example of Khwarezm. Their arrogance towards the Mongol nation made them pay dearly.

And im against any racism, if some one calling todays Mongols "bunch of bloodsucking heathens" simply because what happened in the past, then i would urge the moderators to take action against such just the same as i'd urge them to take action against similar behaviours ofyours. But i care about Asian section most. Thats why exactly i said " i dont look at 21th century Mongols as an ever and only-menacing enemy of China, consider this is not middle-age anymore".

And you didnt give me any chance to let me tell you what i talked with the Outer-Mongolian girl who mistook me as her fellow, under friendly atmosphere, we were talking about history of Chinggis and Kubilaikhan, without any attach to political or racial bias.



Wait a mintue, now she is an "outer" Mongolian girl? Wasn't she "inner"?

When did you managed to say: "i dont look at 21th century Mongols as an ever and only-menacing enemy of China, consider this is not middle-age anymore"?

Aren't you the one who didn't know Mongols speak Mongolian?

Please understand, I don't have spare time to play with "strange" people like you.


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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2005 at 22:57
Originally posted by NCAA

Originally posted by Beijingguy

Originally posted by NCAA

Originally posted by Beijingguy

Ok, NCAA, i offer one last and only chance to telling you this, while most of your posts are nationalistic, with remarks inclined to racism.

I do agree with some points of yours regarding Mongol history, for example, its quite true like you said that Chinggis didnt necessarily need to be at war with  the Khwarezm, as indeed he sent a trading delegation(instead of an army initially) of 450 men with 500 camel carrying goods to open trade relations with the Khwarezm. But the governor of EdaLa city YiNaLeChuHei(HaiErHan) murdered all Mongols and took all the goods.

This breached the previous treaty between the 2 nations, and angered Chinggis greatly, but unlike as perhaps many would assume that actually Chinggis didnt just send army to retaliate, but instead he send 3 special emissaries headed by BaHela to the Khwarezm to inquire the incident and demanded hand over of the guilty to the Mongol. But the Ala' ad-Din Muhammad Shah refused and had BaHela killed, while the other 2 emissaries got their beard shaved as a way of intimidation by the Khwarezm.

That made Chinggis really furious, and the war became inevitable.

I hope this would bring some "common sense".



Ok. I got it.

Then please tell me why there is no action taken againt the member who said "mongols are not to be reasoned with"? He must be a troller since it is total nonsense.




From the example of Khwarezm i gave you, you should understand what i tried otherwisely to tell you by using your nation's own history, that arrogance towards others will draw oneself into trouble, look at the example of Khwarezm. Their arrogance towards the Mongol nation made them pay dearly.

And im against any racism, if some one calling todays Mongols "bunch of bloodsucking heathens" simply because what happened in the past, then i would urge the moderators to take action against such just the same as i'd urge them to take action against similar behaviours ofyours. But i care about Asian section most. Thats why exactly i said " i dont look at 21th century Mongols as an ever and only-menacing enemy of China, consider this is not middle-age anymore".

And you didnt give me any chance to let me tell you what i talked with the Outer-Mongolian girl who mistook me as her fellow, under friendly atmosphere, we were talking about history of Chinggis and Kubilaikhan, without any attach to political or racial bias.



Wait a mintue, now she is an "outer" Mongolian girl? Wasn't she "inner"?

When did you managed to say: "i dont look at 21th century Mongols as an ever and only-menacing enemy of China, consider this is not middle-age anymore"?

Aren't you the one who didn't know Mongols speak Mongolian?

Please understand, I don't have spare time to play with "strange" people like you.


my original:"i had an experience,a Mongolian girl study in China once mistook me as one of her country fellow...

I was talking with an American student, just this Mongolian girl came to me, saying frankly Mongolian to me, i was confused, i friendly asked her in English "why you mistook me as a Mongolian", She says "you look very much like my people"

Afterwards i consulted with my classmate who is a Mongolian from Inner-Mongolia, that whether i really look like a Mongol? She told me "yes, you do look like""

and "The Mongolian from inner-Mongolia is a Chinese citizen, but the Mongolian girl mistook me as a Mongol was from "outer-Mongolian", who was an overseas student  study in China.Both are Mongolian ethnicity..."

Is it not clear?  

my original:"...i didnt view them as "the one and only ever-menacing enemy: the Mongols".... "

your response:"And I was refering to that ancient Mongols. Not 21th century Mongols. "

my response:"Well, i only wanted to show that i have nothing against the Mongols consider this is not middle-age anymore, i treat them as equal as any other people in the world."

the conclusion is equal to what i've said in the statement"i dont look at 21th century Mongols as an ever and only-menacing enemy of China, consider this is not middle-age anymore"?"

BTW: perhaps i should use the word "expressed", not "said", since this confused you.

 



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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2005 at 23:01
Originally posted by Loknar

I can see why NCAA would be angry at the Chinese. Hasnt Gengis Kahn been portrayed as a Chinese man by the PRC?



They are trying to, which is outragous to the point of retardness.

If one needs to repeat the obvious facts Chingis was born in Mongolia, he spoke Mongolian, and he was the king of Mongols.

All Chingis and Mongols EVER had to do with Chinese was to invade and use them.

The implication of accusing Chingis Khaan's Chinese nationality is all Mongols are Chinese. What Chinese are trying to accomplish is a "historical hijacking".




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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2005 at 23:05
Originally posted by NCAA

Originally posted by Loknar

I can see why NCAA would be angry at the Chinese. Hasnt Gengis Kahn been portrayed as a Chinese man by the PRC?



They are trying to, which is outragous to the point of retardness.

If one needs to repeat the obvious facts Chingis was born in Mongolia, he spoke Mongolian, and he was the king of Mongols.

All Chingis had to do with Chinese was to invade and use them.

The implication of accusing Chingis Khaan's Chinese nationality is all Mongols are Chinese. What Chinese are trying to accomplish It is a "historical hijacking".


the "adviser" should now understand why i insisted that Loknar has been "ignorant" .

 

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Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2005 at 23:07
What exactly is it that you want Beijingguy?  You've complained, complained, and complained.  I agree, things arn't going to well in the Asian Forum, but that's been obvious for awhile.  What are you proposing we do?

Poirot and I are attempting to dilute the forum with more academic threads.

Maybe you can take part in those.

Mengtzu and I are trying to get some peace in here, but despite your good intentions you seem to be making it worse.

I asked you to PM one of us if you had any further complaints, yet you further aggravating NCAA in this thread.  Yes, you're aggravating him.  No matter how justified you are in doing so, you're still prodding him to act up.


You're a simple guy right?  What exactly is it that you want to happen?
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