Yugoslav wars

Originally posted by TheDiplomat Originally posted by Ovidius The Attatchment of a genocidal tag to the Serbs is NOT happening, its is part of a victimisation complex. Bosnia is not starting any wars, nor are they aggressive towards Serbia. The Genocidal tag is not about the Serbian nation, but about those that were involved in the Genocide. Its absolutely VITAL that the Serbs DISTANCE themselves from Genocide, rather than DENIAL. This is possibly the most serious boundary for Reconcilation, denial is inherent amongst Serbs, even Serbs outside of Serbia.   Very very wisely spoken, Ovidius

However one could say that Bosnia is (because of the 1990s) hostile towards Serbia and unendingly aggressive towards its Serb citizens. Serbia has normal relations only with 49% of Bosnia, and although I myself support the reunification of BH by abolishing the entities that further divide the respective peoples, some Sarajevo politicians are extremely aggressive, using ethnic slurs and hate speeches in election campaign on remarks how they will "destroy the Chetnik creation" - while at the same time from Banja Luka we hear threats of independence of the Serbian Republic.

Originally posted by The Grim Reaper Originally posted by Yugoslav However one could say that Bosnia is (because of the 1990s) hostile towards Serbia and unendingly aggressive towards its Serb citizens. Serbia has normal relations only with 49% of Bosnia, and although I myself support the reunification of BH by abolishing the entities that further divide the respective peoples, some Sarajevo politicians are extremely aggressive, using ethnic slurs and hate speeches in election campaign on remarks how they will "destroy the Chetnik creation" - while at the same time from Banja Luka we hear threats of independence of the Serbian Republic.   50,000 Muslim women and girls raped and gang-raped, held in concentration camps and impregnated so that they would "give birth to Chetniks" is not a heinous act of genocide??   The massacres of unarmed Muslim men and boys is not an act of genocide???   Driving Muslims and Croats from their homes and making them refuges is not an act of genocide??   And, didn't the Serb paramilitary forces conduct themselves in the same exact fashion against Muslim Albanians in Kosovo??   I don't recall ever hearing of Muslims or Croats holding Serbian women and girls in rape camps or massacring thousands of unarmed men and boys, or driving Serbs from their homes -and if it did occur, it was no where near the level at the atrocities committed by the Serb forces.   So, yeah, the Muslims, Croats, and Serbs did commit war crimes -just so happens that the Serbs committed them on a much larger scale.

I am talking about present time. Those all things happened in the 1990s, and I am talking about the present situation.

However, crimes were committed by the other sides too.

In 1995 Croatia conducted two offensives, Operation Storm and Operation Flash, in which around 3,500 Serbs (of whom only several hundred were soldiers) were killed and up to 300,000 ethnically cleansed by general Ante Gotovina (now at the Hague). After a long and horrible war, 450,000-600,000 were permanently driven out of Croatia in an act that the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia is considering to note as an act of genocide. Franjo Tudjman and his closest men conspired, planned, attempted, helped occur, conducted the mass removal of the Serbs in Croatia, reducing their numbers from 600,000-750,000 before the war down to 150,000 after.

In 1991 there was a massive riot pogrom on Serbs all across Dalmatia were masses robbed, destroyed and burned their property. In 1990-1991 in Croatia all notable Serbs were fired from jobs, world-renown actor Rade Serbedzija was exiled for being a Serb and their status was downgraded from a constitutive people to a rightless national minority. Tens of thousands were in 1990-1991 forcibly removed, altogether 300,000 left permanently Croatia up to 1993 arrival of UN protection.

Between 1,000 and 2,000 Serbs in eastern Bosnia and Herzegovina (Serbs say 3,500) were murdered by Naser Oric's troops in 1992-1995. The Croatian and Bosnian armed forces under Atif Dudakovic have just after Operation Storm expelled 150,000 Serbs from western Bosnia.

The Kosovar Albanian KLA is known for around 300 occasions of kidnapping, including children and elder people. The threats were either to recognize independence of Kosovo, or they execute them (and they did). They were a globally-recognized terrorist organization.

In March of 2004 a massive pogrom was held against Muslims, Croats, Serbs and Roms (even several Jews too) in Kosovo in which all refugees that returned since 1999 were expelled, in addition to several more people.

The most frequent notion that the Serbs were the "biggest bad guys" basing on the fact that there are 150 Serbs and Montenegrin in the Hague (and only 20 Croats) is often misused for present stereotype issues, and the fact is there that they fought the Slovenes, Croats, Bosniaks, Albanians - so it's expected. If you accumulate all crimes committed by other sides together you'd get shocking figures too.

In all fronts across Yugoslavia, over 1,000,000 Serbs were expelled because they were Serbs and 40,000-50,000 died (and no other *side* had such casualties).

Originally posted by dark matter Between 1,000 and 2,000 Serbs in eastern Bosnia and Herzegovina (Serbs say 3,500) were murdered by Naser Oric's troops in 1992-1995.   oh really? why dont you mention this area is srebenica where naser was cornered into tiny pocket with thousands of civilians slowly being killed. anyone would have done the same trying to survive. but serb losses are childsplay compared to what the bosnians in the same area suffered.   The Kosovar Albanian KLA is known for around 300 occasions of kidnapping, including children and elder people. The threats were either to recognize independence of Kosovo, or they execute them (and they did). They were a globally-recognized terrorist organization.   globally? by whom? serbs=global. i cant believe you have the nerve to post such provoktive material when your country is a terrorist state, which is the biggest stage a terrorist organisation can reach. your country is like that of nazi germany, whose crimes are supported by its citizens by a majority. 300?  i cant believe you would use as evidence such a tiny number to demonstrate why KLA is terrorist(globally famous). and of what the wrost crime of all, kidnaping. youre a joke. im not even going to question your claim, its stupid cause to defend.  even before the war in kosovo serbia kidnapped much more albs than what you claim KLA did in war time. lets look albs in hauge, one of kosovo leaders hajdari is bieng tried for what killing like 20 or less people in war time? oh the terrorism. you got orindnary criminals who have bigger numbers on the streets. while serbian war criminals are being tried for killing thousands. be carefull before you throw that terrorism term at us when your country a true terrorist organisation and globally recognised, dont forget how the world responded in 98/99. its a shame the world is trying former KLA leaders for low scale crimes which are bound to happen in any war. its quite obvious the policy of appeasemnt doesnt work, it didnt work with germany and its not working with serbia. it actually is reenforcing their denial.   In March of 2004 a massive pogrom was held against Muslims, Croats, Serbs and Roms (even several Jews too) in Kosovo in which all refugees that returned since 1999 were expelled, in addition to several more people. massive. nazi like propoganda to support your facist politics. muslims  croats there were only like 700 croats in kosovo most left after the war, not 2004. kosovo albs love croatia, they proved that your terrorism can be stoped. my hat to them.   In all fronts across Yugoslavia, over 1,000,000 Serbs were expelled i thought it was 1 billion.

i did not mention the Srebrenica Genocide because I was talking about atrocities against Serbs. The massacre in Srebrenica was committed against Bosnian Muslims a.k.a. Bosniacs, and not Serbs.

You were justifying hatred against Serbs for their crimes in the 1990s, and I was trying to express how erronous and essentially, irredentist and stereotypic is that opinion. That was my sole desire. Comparing crimes is playing with numbers, and spiting on the names of the victims that died.

Global=the world. Please see "Terrorist groups" for example: http://www.cfr.org/publication/10159/

The group was founded in the early 1990s during a backlash against Serbian efforts to eliminate ethnic Albanian political influence inside the former Yugoslavia. President Bill Clinton's special envoy to the Balkans, Robert Gelbard, described the KLA as, "without any questions, a terrorist group." The KLA engaged in tit-for-tat attacks with Serbian nationalists in Kosovo, reprisals against ethnic Albanians who "collaborated" with the Serbian government, and bombed police stations and cafes known to be frequented by Serb officials, killing innocent civilians in the process. Most of its activities were funded by drug running, though its ties to community groups and Albanian exiles gave it local popularity. By 1999, however, the United States had embraced the KLA's cause, if not the group itself, working instead through the ethnic Albanian nationalist politician Ibrahim Rugova. Clinton spearheaded a NATO air war and subsequent invasion of Kosovo aimed at stopping Serbian ethnic cleansing there in 1999. After the war, the KLA was transformed into the Kosovo Protection Corps, which now works alongside NATO forces patrolling the province. Talks aimed at determining Kosovo's final status continue, and in March, the KLA's former leader, Agim Ceku, was elected prime minister of the province.

My country was destroyed in 1992 by the very same kind of hatred speech that you just spread, so I do not know to what you refer.

You think it is a shame to try criminals... so you support criminals, and atrocities against Serbs.

I should report you to an administrator for extremely abusive, disruptive and aggressive comments.

According to the population census, there were exactly 8,062 Croats in Kosovo. They left when Janjevo and Letnica were attacked by KLA. Most lived in enclaves together with Serbs, but they left after the repeated attacks.

Your sarcasm regarding Serbs' atrocities is not humoring anyone. If you want in detail, here: 450,000-600,000 from Croatia, 450,000 from the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina and 100,000-200,000 from Kosovo. Does this satisfy you?

Originally posted by Yugoslav i did not mention the Srebrenica Genocide because I was talking about atrocities against Serbs. The massacre in Srebrenica was committed against Bosnian Muslims a.k.a. Bosniacs, and not Serbs.

sounds like a joke. when has kla crashed planes into buildings? bombed busses? thats real terrorism that effects masses of civilians. killing a traitor who shows paramilitary units the back entry to your home is hardly public disturbance or effects anyone but the collaberator who helped serbian units kill your loved ones. but if the above is terrorism what is srebenica? or serb atrocities during balkan wars?

My country was destroyed in 1992 by the very same kind of hatred speech that you just spread, so I do not know to what you refer.

 and it was serb aggregesion that destroyed it. if serbs didnt feel like killing thousands of people and driving them away from their homes, things would have likely not turn out the way they did.

You think it is a shame to try criminals... so you support criminals, and atrocities against Serbs.

 

minor offenses are nothing, low scale revange attacks, who would have thought it might have happened? just for using such words ill post real atrocities for you kid. the world has the right to know what a sick nation your country is. killing people left and right and now have the balls to acuse the victims.

I should report you to an administrator for extremely abusive, disruptive and aggressive comments.

 

i have no problem taking you on.

According to the population census, there were exactly 8,062 Croats in Kosovo. They left when Janjevo and Letnica were attacked by KLA. Most lived in enclaves together with Serbs, but they left after the repeated attacks.

 

when did they began to migrate away? 1992! in milosevic era when serbs were having killing spree blast.

Your sarcasm regarding Serbs' atrocities is not humoring anyone. If you want in detail, here: 450,000-600,000 from Croatia, 450,000 from the Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina and 100,000-200,000 from Kosovo. Does this satisfy you?

 

your numbes look fake. at most in kosovo its 100,000, and most left at the sight of NATO vehicles. perhaps they did something cruel and were afraid of revange? how many mass graces are still hidden in belgrades suburbs?

Why was Dark Matter banned? 

actually, interestingly, you have stepped accross into the realms of some research that a friend of mine is doing, based on Serb Denial.

Admit Nothing, deflect to Crimes of Enemies. She interviewed Serbs and found that many deflected the issue of crimes like Srebrenica, by talking specifically about Crimes against Serbs or Crimes committed by other groups.

To be honest, this thread is going no where and should be closed. You cannot have a civil discussion on such matters. Is it really tasteful to make comparisons between crimes or to hold up such crimes in some accusatory mannor. How about... Letting go of the past? Or at least attempting to move on from the crimes. Reconciliation for example.

However one could say that Bosnia is (because of the 1990s) hostile towards Serbia and unendingly aggressive towards its Serb citizens. Serbia has normal relations only with 49% of Bosnia, and although I myself support the reunification of BH by abolishing the entities that further divide the respective peoples, some Sarajevo politicians are extremely aggressive, using ethnic slurs and hate speeches in election campaign on remarks how they will "destroy the Chetnik creation" - while at the same time from Banja Luka we hear threats of independence of the Serbian Republic.

One could say that Bosnia is hostile to Serbia, but it would be wrong.

I have heard aggressive ethnic slurs from Serbia as well - but you say that Serbia is completely peaceful. Serbia, in its election, strongly supported the nationalist party. Yet you do not admit that Serbia is radical or in anyway aggressive towards its neighbours - but you accuse Bosnia of this?

Really Yugoslav, come on.

Originally posted by The Grim Reaper Yugoslav,   Why do you deny that the Serbs committed such heinous atrocities?   I don't know what is more sad, the fact that the Serbs raped, gang-raped and murdered innocent Bosnian Muslims and Croats or that the Serbs deny that these atrocities ever happened -almost implying that the Bosnian Muslims and Croats were inferior and deserved what they got.   I hope you realize that this constant denial is the reason that the Western media portrays Serbia as pariahs.

Originally posted by Ovidius actually, interestingly, you have stepped accross into the realms of some research that a friend of mine is doing, based on Serb Denial. Admit Nothing, deflect to Crimes of Enemies. She interviewed Serbs and found that many deflected the issue of crimes like Srebrenica, by talking specifically about Crimes against Serbs or Crimes committed by other groups. To be honest, this thread is going no where and should be closed. You cannot have a civil discussion on such matters. Is it really tasteful to make comparisons between crimes or to hold up such crimes in some accusatory mannor. How about... Letting go of the past? Or at least attempting to move on from the crimes. Reconciliation for example. However one could say that Bosnia is (because of the 1990s) hostile towards Serbia and unendingly aggressive towards its Serb citizens. Serbia has normal relations only with 49% of Bosnia, and although I myself support the reunification of BH by abolishing the entities that further divide the respective peoples, some Sarajevo politicians are extremely aggressive, using ethnic slurs and hate speeches in election campaign on remarks how they will "destroy the Chetnik creation" - while at the same time from Banja Luka we hear threats of independence of the Serbian Republic. One could say that Bosnia is hostile to Serbia, but it would be wrong. I have heard aggressive ethnic slurs from Serbia as well - but you say that Serbia is completely peaceful. Serbia, in its election, strongly supported the nationalist party. Yet you do not admit that Serbia is radical or in anyway aggressive towards its neighbours - but you accuse Bosnia of this? Really Yugoslav, come on.

The Serbian government does, however Yugoslav has not personally denied genocide against Bosnian Muslims, atrocities against Croats, the only thing he added was that the Serbian side suffered some atrocities too, which is a true statement, it is not to the extent that one propaganda video made by the radical party made, but it did happen. Many sides participated in the war, it is deeper than the CNN coverage on it. The lines were not as rigid, nor was the conflict monolith even in a small country as BiH, region by region there were differences in conflict, response, and the demographics of the armies even. Sarajevo for example had defenders of all "ethno-religious" backgrounds, the commander of the BIH Armed Forces was himself a Bosnian Orthodox Serb, the military hand of the Bosnian Muslim President of BiH. It is really hard to understand the intricacies of this conflict for an outsider, Balkan people can partially understand some of it, however to truly understand it you would have been there, or from there.

Originally posted by Ovidius Originally posted by Yugoslav Originally posted by Ovidius actually, interestingly, you have stepped accross into the realms of some research that a friend of mine is doing, based on Serb Denial. Admit Nothing, deflect to Crimes of Enemies. She interviewed Serbs and found that many deflected the issue of crimes like Srebrenica, by talking specifically about Crimes against Serbs or Crimes committed by other groups. To be honest, this thread is going no where and should be closed. You cannot have a civil discussion on such matters. Is it really tasteful to make comparisons between crimes or to hold up such crimes in some accusatory mannor. How about... Letting go of the past? Or at least attempting to move on from the crimes. Reconciliation for example. However one could say that Bosnia is (because of the 1990s) hostile towards Serbia and unendingly aggressive towards its Serb citizens. Serbia has normal relations only with 49% of Bosnia, and although I myself support the reunification of BH by abolishing the entities that further divide the respective peoples, some Sarajevo politicians are extremely aggressive, using ethnic slurs and hate speeches in election campaign on remarks how they will "destroy the Chetnik creation" - while at the same time from Banja Luka we hear threats of independence of the Serbian Republic. One could say that Bosnia is hostile to Serbia, but it would be wrong. I have heard aggressive ethnic slurs from Serbia as well - but you say that Serbia is completely peaceful. Serbia, in its election, strongly supported the nationalist party. Yet you do not admit that Serbia is radical or in anyway aggressive towards its neighbours - but you accuse Bosnia of this? Really Yugoslav, come on. This has got nothing to do with individualized incidents, but the country's official policy. BH is working hard on an international level to revise the decision of the International Court of Justice, again accusing Serbia for genocide (that's aggressive). And I was referring more to some Sarajevo politicians' attitudes on the Serbian Republic, and not Serbia. And of course I agree with you. The damned Balkaners (us) need to learn to stop living in a twisted world of nationalism that brings only destruction... *sigh* Wait a minute... what denial are you talking about? BH accuses Serbia of Genocide because the Serbian Government continually avoids the issue. It hasn't apologised for the crimes nor has officially accepted any guilt by the Serbian Government either. No idea whether thats a defensive strategy to appease the internal opposition to such apologies etc, or just the general beliefs of the people in government.

1. President of Serbia Boris Tadic apologized in public for all the crimes committed in the name of Serbdom in 1992-1995 in Bosnia and Herzegovina

2. It's questionable whether Serbia is responsible for it. It's especially questionable, because the ICJ found Serbia not guilty, and found that it did not commit genocide in Bosnia - so there's a dead end in there.

3. That's an official policy of the Government of Bosnia and Herzegovina, and it works in collaboration with the government of Croatia. The goal is to revise the sentence of the International Court of Justice that freed Serbia from accusations of committing genocide.