Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Nazi-Japanese relation...
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123
Author
  Share Topic Share Topic  Topic Search Topic Search  Topic Options Topic Options
Temujin View Drop Down
King
King
Avatar
Sirdar Bahadur

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: Eurasia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Nazi-Japanese relation...
    Posted: 30-Mar-2009 at 20:17
Originally posted by shugo

Temujin name one general!
 
Happen to know the death rate and average lifespan in the gulags?
 
sorry but to say this a myth is like saying there is no holocaust.


i didn't said people didn't died in Gulags but do you know what a Gulag is in the first place? and don't compare simple peons to generals and aircraft designers. one of the famous russian aircraft designers also was in a Gulag. i can't remember either the name of the General(s) nor the aircraft designer but maybe other members can contribute those
 
Never wondered why so many German women got raped at the end of WW2?


that's got nothign to do with Soviet leadership at all...
 
but ok I get  it you're a leftist version of Williamson ;) your location already hinted at that ;)


i seriously doubt you have a clue where i come from and it's really stupid to judge other persons based on their location...
Back to Top
Bernard Woolley View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian


Joined: 11-Jun-2008
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 154 		  Quote Bernard Woolley Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Mar-2009 at 02:56

Originally posted by shugo

It managed to beat back on its own, because the Germans weren't getting supplies, because their industries were getting bombed. I keep telling you people, these things are connected and you keep leaving out the fact that the Americans sens planes too, which was important in the chain of events.

This was in 1942, before the bombing campaign had started to find its feet. The Americans in particular took quite a while to work out how to successfully carry out their daylight raids (the British, having settled on night bombing, had an easier time of it), and weren't yet doing much damage.

Originally posted by shugo

Move the British out of Egypt and they'll be fighting in the desert (more damage to their already dismal tanks) and they would be the ones out of resupplies.

Some of the British tanks were dismal, others (like the Matilda II) were actually quite good. Either way, Rommel couldn't go around Egypt. Even if he had been more successful than he was, he would still have eventually had to attack Egypt and face the enormous disparity in numbers.

Originally posted by shugo

"I don't see much likelyhood that the Japanese would have chosen a northern push over a southern one."

Look I don't see that happening either and i agree with you on that, but that's not the point, it is what would have been necessary to keep the U.S. out of the war, which is what we are assuming.

In my view, the only alternative under which the Japanese would have done better than in reality would be if they managed to ake the British and French territories in Asia without drawing a direct reprisal from the US. If they had gone north again they likely would have just been crushed again. Any army sent to Siberia would have been more useful in China, fighting an enemy they could actually beat.

Originally posted by shugo

http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/EARS/Hallionpapers/battleofbritainsep98.htm

you do the math. particularly look at table 2. Leave out the american supplies in the battle of britain.

Since this is referring to things that happened before the America's entry into the war, I don't see how it supports your argument that the whole conflict turned on that event. If anything, it supports the argument that, if it wasn't attacked, the US didn't really have to officially join the war at all.

Now should you decide to respond to this, I would appreciate your showing at least a basic level of civility by keeping any judgements about me that you're harbouring to yourself.
Back to Top
ericbell46 View Drop Down
Immortal Guard
Immortal Guard


Joined: 29-Mar-2009
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 0 		  Quote ericbell46 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 04-Apr-2009 at 19:24
The german plan was going very well, because they were scared of a two front war.  They had taken on the allies in the west and won.  Britain (far as they were concerned) was nothing more than a mopping-up operation.  Now, the germans knew that Japan wanted to have a go at Russia, and, because the german's whole outlook on strategy (due to Germany's geographical position) was directed towards avoiding wars on two fronts, invaded Russia on the basis that because germany was allied with japan, the japanese would attack Russia from the east.  And thus Russia would be fighting on two fronts. And, apart from this intelligence from Tokyo from this Serge chap, Stalin would have had to keep guarding the East.  The divisions that relieved Moscow would have had to stay in the east.  The germans would probably have won at Moscow.

cheers

Eric    
Back to Top
shugo View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary


Joined: 23-Mar-2009
Location: groningen
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 20 		  Quote shugo Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2010 at 03:00
 with regard to 3. the allies played with formally invading Spain, but couldn't because the casus belli wasn't good enough... not that it  would have helped much for other geographic reasons
 
bernard you're wrong about it being 1942... the early orders are  placed in 1941 as you can clearly see from the stats, which in fact makes it 1940! Which means I'm right and you're wrong pretty much about everything...
 
Happen to know how you can tell it's 1940?
 
it's warehouse stock!
 
rule no1 with history, never look at it with modern eyes, which is what you did... you wrongly assumed the allies had a Just-In-Time concept of production, which wasn't developed until full well after the war and they developed it from a  japanese concept
 
 
bottomline is that when you are wrong about it being 1942, you are also wrong about everything else due to the knock-on effects
 
and guess what, you are wrong...about everything! better leave the strategy of war to the real generals bernard... you'd better stick to being a secretary or civil servant ;)
Back to Top
lirelou View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 26-Mar-2009
Location: Tampa, FL
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 528 		  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2010 at 15:18
As Catalan noted, the Japanese also signed a non-Aggression Pact with the USSR in April 1941. Jst about the time Kim Il-sung and the survivors of the Northeast Asia Anti-Japanese United Army was wrapped up in Manchuria, and fled to the USSR. Where, as virtual unknowns in the Soviet pantheon of trusted Communists, they were promptly thrown into a detention camp. On 21-22 June 1941, Stalin suddenly found a need for someone to keep an eye on the Japanese in Manchuria. Coincidentally, Kim Il-sung and his former partisans were incorporated into the 88th Independent Infantry Brigade, which included Chinese, Koreans, Jurchens. Mongolians, etc. What the 88th "Snipers" did in the war is still disputed. Some claim it was an unbrella special warfare organization, some insist that it was a strategic reconnaissance asset, and others insist that it was merely another Soviet Independent Infantry Brigade that was disbanded as promptly as the war ended. The only thing absolutely certain is that some of its veterans ended up in high positions in both the Chinese and North Korean governments. 
Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
Back to Top
Cryptic View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 05-Jul-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2010 at 08:06
Originally posted by lirelou

The only thing absolutely certain is that some of its veterans ended up in high positions in both the Chinese and North Korean governments. 
And especially the North Korean military. Most of the North Korean batalion, regimental and divisional commanders had served in the Soviet Army.  I imagine that this was mainly with the 88th Brigade. In the North Korean Army, the talent and expertise of these men allowed the surprisingly lethal North Korean army to win a series of battles with U.S. units.
 
It is entirely possible that the purpose of the 88th Brigade was cadre (identify and develop leadership talent).  These men then returned to their home countries as "ready made" commanders and.... they also had combat experience.
 
 


Edited by Cryptic - 01-Feb-2010 at 08:12
Back to Top
lirelou View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 26-Mar-2009
Location: Tampa, FL
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 528 		  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Feb-2010 at 19:54

Cryptic, the earliest commanders of what became the KPA came from the 88th, and had all served with Kim Il-sung. However the great majority of Nork field commanders from company up came out of the Chinese PLA in late '49, when they were transferred en masse from the PLA to the KPA. James M. Minnich's "The North Korean People's Army: Origina and Current Tactics" (Naval Institute Press, 2005) gives a pretty good breakdown in his chapter on the expansion of the NK People's Army. The 88th Brigade folks, 30 or so of whom came in with KIS in September 1945, became the top commanders because they were the most trusted. Joe Bermudez covers them pretty well in his book "North Korean Special Operations Forces", and Minnich has a pretty good wrap-up. Bermudez makes the mistake of labelling them the "Kaspen" group, whereas Minnich has it right as the "Kapsan" (or Gapsan in the new romanization system) group. Minnich speaks, reads, and writes Korean. Both books are dry reading for the generalist, but a "must have" for any Nork specialist. Considering the prices of Bermudez' books, I'd take Minnich's over his if my budget was limited.

Regarding the 88th "Strelnaya" (Sharpshooter), I have seen sources that painted it as a unit meant to be the spearhead for "communization" of Northeast Asia, and that may very well be true. However, KIS's late arrival in Wonson by ship suggests that if such plans had been drawn up, they were pretty much ignored in 1945. There were some 5,000 Soviet Koreans in the Soviet Army, and after the war ended, many sere sent into Korea to get the new government, its constabulary, and the later KPA on their feet.

Edited by lirelou - 01-Feb-2010 at 20:01
Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
Back to Top
Cryptic View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke

Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 05-Jul-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1962 		  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2010 at 15:30
Thanks for the specific information. I am surprised that most senior commanders came out of the PLA.  I thought that the Soviets would have ensured that only men with the "right" communist idealogical training (Soviet trained verse Maoist philosophy) would be given senior command positions.  


Edited by Cryptic - 02-Feb-2010 at 15:31
Back to Top
lirelou View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel


Joined: 26-Mar-2009
Location: Tampa, FL
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 528 		  Quote lirelou Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Feb-2010 at 15:45
Cryptic, those closest to Kim Il-sung came out of the 88th "Snipers".  By sheer numbers, the 35-45,000 PLA Koreans that Mao sent in were bound to outnumber the rest. The great majority of these entered Chinese military service after 1945, so they would have been the KPA enlisted and junior officers. The number of Soviet Koreans has been given as 5,000, but these included governmental advisors and technicians. The old 88th Brigade clique was not 'purged' (put out to pasture in most cases) until the failure of the Nork infiltrations of the south in 1968. The Chinese and Soviet leaders were purged before the "Kapsan" clique, and I believe that in the case of the Soviets, most were simply sent back there. (Dr. Andrei Lankov argues that but for an accident of history, Kim Il-sung may have ended up as just another retired Soviet general.)
Phong trần mài một lưỡi gươm, Những loài giá áo túi cơm sá gì
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <123

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.051 seconds.