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Should evolution or creationism be tought in schools?

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  Quote Idanthyrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Should evolution or creationism be tought in schools?
    Posted: 23-Mar-2005 at 12:44
Leave theology to sunday school, leave science to public school. All practicing Christians learn about the creation stories anyway, and if some fundementalist doesnt want her children to learn about evolution, she should send them to private school.
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  Quote Teup Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2005 at 14:44

Originally posted by Idanthyrus

Leave theology to sunday school, leave science to public school. All practicing Christians learn about the creation stories anyway, and if some fundementalist doesnt want her children to learn about evolution, she should send them to private school.

I'd go even further, I'd say the gov should protect children from that.. don't know if that would work though, the parents always have the final say of course.

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  Quote white dragon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2005 at 20:43
Originally posted by Teup

Originally posted by Idanthyrus

Leave theology to sunday school, leave science to public school. All practicing Christians learnabout thecreation stories anyway, and if some fundementalist doesnt want her children to learn about evolution, she should send them to private school.


I'd go even further, I'd say the gov should protect children from that.. don't know if that would work though, the parents always have the final say of course.


that would start the government too much in on the personal life of citizens. plus in america that would be against the constitution
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  Quote Idanthyrus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 03:05

There is nothing wrong with people learing about the creation stories. But they have their own place; and it is not in public school. While I think that the original intent of the U.S. Constitution with regards to the separation between curch and state was to prevent the country from turning into a theocracy, the modern paradigm should be considered. The ones pushing most vigiously for re-introducing creationism to public schools tend to be evengelicals who are usually defined by the zeal with which they attempt to legislate their own morality unto everybody else. We need to protect everybody's rights as best we can. Most Christians today tend to regard the stories as the figurative rather than the literal truth anyway.

 

On the other hand I think state's rights are very important. States that tend to be more fundementalist have the same right to self-governance as all the other states. However this too can have inherent problems; before the civil war for instance, slavery was often justified using various religious sanction.

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 03:21
I cant honestly think of a time when the states where right about a major issue and the government was not, not only slavery but integration and often criminal law as well.
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  Quote Capt. Lubber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 03:29
Atheism isn't a belief, it is the lack of one.
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 03:33
or as I view it, a disdain for jumping to conclusions without proof.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 08:32
Originally posted by Capt. Lubber

Atheism isn't a belief, it is the lack of one.

"Someone who turns atheist doesn't stop do believe in something, he starts to believe in everything."
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  Quote Teup Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 08:50

Originally posted by white dragon


that would start the government too much in on the personal life of citizens. plus in america that would be against the constitution

Maybe, but you have to draw the line somewhere; beating up your kids isn't OK either. I'm not comparing religious school to beating, but prohibiting it wouldn't be introducing anything new. And besides your children are not completely your own personal life.

Originally posted by Capt. Lubber

Atheism isn't a belief, it is the lack of one.

I don't agree with that. If there's an unknown suitcase on the street, and someone guesses it's empty, it's not a lack of believing it has a contents, it's believing it has a lack of contents. It's not like being atheist grands you 'being right in case the other ones are wrong', it's a belief all the same.



Edited by Teup
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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 09:01
Originally posted by MixcoatlToltecahtecuhtli


Originally posted by Capt. Lubber

Atheism isn't a belief, it is the lack of one.

"Someone who turns atheist doesn't stop do believe in something, he starts to believe in everything."


Your line sounds pretty, but it is empty. It is hard to figure out what you mean. The second clause can be interpreted in many ways. Instead of specifying what exactly does the atheist "believe," you hide your opinion behind the word "thing."

Is "everything" objects? If so, do atheists begin worshiping Barbie dolls, popcorn, shoe polish, and manila folders? Is "everything" imaginary beings? Then atheist must believe in Santa Clause, UFOs, gnomes, and Ronald McDonald. Is "everything" abstract concepts? Do they believe then in algorithms, subtractions, justice, and imaginary numbers?

If atheists believe in everything, and someone who believes everything is called gullible, are atheists gullible? If so, then explain who come many became atheist by doubting the stories that their elders told them. Are they first skeptical Cartesians, only to become the must trusting fools once they reject god?

Please explain exactly what you mean.


Edited by hugoestr
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  Quote Teup Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 09:23

Maybe it's about that mentality that alot of people here have, that are just like "well, I dunno, so I guess I'll be an atheist, that way I'll be right if the rest is wrong, I'll be right in case of 'all other possibilities'"

Which kind of annoys me, IMO you're either agnostic, or you're atheist and accept it as a belief, which is not 'IF NOT (the others) THEN (me)' but just 1 belief, like everybody else's.

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 09:53
Originally posted by hugoestr

Originally posted by MixcoatlToltecahtecuhtli


Originally posted by Capt. Lubber

Atheism isn't a belief, it is the lack of one.

"Someone who turns atheist doesn't stop do believe in something, he starts to believe in everything."


Your line sounds pretty, but it is empty. It is hard to figure out what you mean. The second clause can be interpreted in many ways. Instead of specifying what exactly does the atheist "believe," you hide your opinion behind the word "thing."

Is "everything" objects? If so, do atheists begin worshiping Barbie dolls, popcorn, shoe polish, and manila folders? Is "everything" imaginary beings? Then atheist must believe in Santa Clause, UFOs, gnomes, and Ronald McDonald. Is "everything" abstract concepts? Do they believe then in algorithms, subtractions, justice, and imaginary numbers?

If atheists believe in everything, and someone who believes everything is called gullible, are atheists gullible? If so, then explain who come many became atheist by doubting the stories that their elders told them. Are they first skeptical Cartesians, only to become the must trusting fools once they reject god?

Please explain exactly what you mean.

Actually I don't mean anything specific, it's just some famous quote (I forgot whose) I remeber.
I guess it means that atheist have the possibility to be more open-minded. (which doesn't say atheists always are)
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  Quote Capt. Lubber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 10:22
Well, I still believe atheism to not be a belief. Bear with me here because I don't know how to word myself.

When you strip away all religions, atheism is what you are left with, it is like a tree trunk is to branches. You can choose to divert from being an atheist, and be religious. But atheism is the basis of sorts. The people who look upon atheism as a belief, are often religious themselves, but i feel that I should be able to not have a belief. I feel indifferent to religion, I have never thought about believing for myself, I have always just thought that worshipping a god or a prophet is as good as worshipping chocolate bananas. I can't see the point and I think that a belief-less existence is what you have when you don't have a religion. I don't feel like "I dunno", I am quite positive there is no deities of any sort, and that belief is redundant and old-fashioned. As much as I feel it silly to bow to the all-mighty espresso maker, because if I don't I won't go to capucchino-heaven. I can't understand, or relate to the religious who say that atheism is just another belief. Because faith is second-nature to them, I don't need a faith, I am just a bit puzzled that lack of faith should even need a label, "atheist", like it was something unnatural. Like calling people with two eyes anything other than normal compared to a person with one eye. Because the world isn't divided into different belifs, wherein atheism is counted, but between believers, non-believers, and the "dunno" lot.

I believe in nothing, atheist is a silly label. I don't accept it as a belief, it has come quite natural to me from thinking, and parents who also have no beliefs. Religion is indoctrinated, "atheism" would be the result of a liberated mind.

I don't know if any of you understood any of that, but I really can't express what I feel about it in a good way. Hope I didn't step on too many toes on the way.

I think it all boils down to that it annoys me that in the 21st century there are still people who can't imagine life without this belief of theirs, and must label those heathens who will surely go to hell as atheists.
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  Quote Dawn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 10:32
well I for one understand what you were saying  perfectly and agree whole heartedly.
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  Quote Teup Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 10:35

I hear you, but that's exactly what I don't agree with.

Originally posted by Capt. Lubber

When you strip away all religions, atheism is what you are left with, it is like a tree trunk is to branches. 

That's the epicentre where we don't agree. I think atheism is based on an assumption, just like other religions are based on assumptions. One example, atheists will believe there's "nothing" after death, whereas Buddhists will believe in reincarnation. Now, it might seem the "nothing" is the base, and that reincarnation is a belief diverting from that, like you'd argue, but I think it's not. You could view it the other way around just as well. Looking at nature, everything moves in cycles and nothing is lost or added. Reincarnation could be the 'base', and the "nothing" would be the alternative assumption, the alternative belief. You see? Neither have evidence (if there is evidence on post mortem acitivity, let's disregard it for the moment), it comes down to what basic assumtion you make. Both are equal assumptions IMO. Now of course, it mustn't get in the way of actual fact. But on areas there is no scientific evidence or research, all explainations and assumptions are just as fine to me.

Back on the evolution/creationism topic; To me creationism does seem to get in the way of fact. That's why I think it should not be taught. I think evolution should be taught because it's the leading theory; it is either right (which i assume) or it will be rejected in the future by scientists that were taught this theory, so they were familiar with it and could reject it rightfully. Win-win.

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  Quote Capt. Lubber Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 10:41
Great Then we'll just agree to disagree! I understand quite perfectly where you're coming from, and you understand where I'm coming from. I will never talk you into coming over to the dark side, and I will never be religious.

Just needed to get all of that off my chest

I believe religion is based on assumption, and that atheism is the "inner core" of things

Edited by Capt. Lubber
Loke, Attila, the grete conqueror,
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Bleedinge ay at the nose in dronkenesse,
A captayin shoulde live in sobrenesse
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  Quote Teup Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 11:11

I'm not saying I'm religious, I'm saying you are . But that's just what I believe, so.. hmm that makes me religious as well  I think everyone either believes something or does not, in the 'not' case is not atheism but agnosticism. Your inner core is my bark. My bark is your inner core. I just wanted to point that out, the "inner core" is no mathematical truth, it depends on your perspective 

I'm just an agnost most of the time by the way, different views don't bother me, the only thing that bothers me is fundamentalism (in any religion, including (and especially sometimes) atheism the way I see it), but I think all posts in this topic have been great

And no more votes for creationism 



Edited by Teup
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  Quote eaglecap Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 15:45
Originally posted by SearchAndDestroy

"Your argument is weak becuse you have a closed mind, but I will agree that religion should not be taught in public schools although I see no problem bringing up, briefly, the theory or belief in creation. I have taken many biology classes and it is still a theory and not a fact!!! Not all wars were fought over religion but in fact most are for socioecconomic reasons, for power and land. Religion is often a good excuse but no matter people would still find reasons to kill each other without religion. I prefer to steer from oraganized religion but I do believe in God. If you want to believe in evolution then it is by faith and not fact but I respect your choice. If you can prove it then Dr. Hovind will give you a large sum of money."


I wouldn't say I'm closed minded, I went to a catholic school and thats where I came to the conclusion it wasn't real but more of a fairy tale like the hundred other religeons either before or after christianity. I beleave Judaism or Islam, not sure which order they came in, came from a Egyption religeon that didn't last long at all where for the first time a pharoah said there was one god, after he died his followers went into hiding that still beleaved and the religeon was broken up. From there I beleave it all just evolved into Judaism and Islam, from Judaism came Christianity, whether it was from Jesus or if Jesus was just chosen as a poster boy idk.


Theres a whole lot more proof of evolution then there will ever be of a god existing. They just keep finding more and more proof of evolution. Infact earlier this month or late last month they found some skeletons in ethopia linking some bon es. They also found another set of bones in south asia of another human sub-species that they nicknamed a hobit.


Its just hard for me to beleave in a religeon that has so many sub groups I guess you can say so that it better fits how people feel or to move with science since they can't really prove wrong except make up explanations on dinosuars being around with humans when theres more evidence and its a known fact of what time period they were from and that they were from a time period of pre-primape species'.


Its known that the moon was made after a mars sized rock slammed into earth. So during the 7 days we were created a few million years later a asteroid hit earth that would kill everyone and everything, and yet we just magicly poped up again? Well I guess its possible since someone did make a planet in 7 days.....


Alright I have to stop or i'll be hijacking this topic further... All I want to really say is its beyond me how people can still beleave in a god, or a religeon with such violent histories. But I will also respect the people, just not the religeon.



Thank you for sharing! I understand and I agree with some of the things you stated. I went to a Baptist elementry school and they did teach it like a fairy tale although they included aspects of evolution. I avoid organized religion but I have studied history enough to know that even without religion people would still kill each other, it is our nature. I avoid organized religion but I spend a lot of time in the wild and I see the hand of a creator everywhere I look.
Maybe when we evolve spiritually enough the concept of God will be no big deal. I argue off and on with my Christain friends but I support freedom of thought and religion.
The problem with evolution is there is no evidence of Macro evolutiion or one species slowly evolving into another. I agree in micro evolution or adaption such as the Polar bears who developed webbed feet but they are still bears. Maybe it is all an illusion-
The argument can go on forever so if you want to believe in this theory then I respect that.
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  Quote Teup Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 16:02

Originally posted by eaglecap

The problem with evolution is there is no evidence of Macro evolutiion or one species slowly evolving into another.

This has 2 causes:

1. If it's true, one still can't directly observe this as it's a slow process and "you can't observe a chance unless the chance is already underway". But maybe this is what you meant with 'problem'.

2. 'Species' doesn't have a proper definition, it's kind of arbitrary. What's your definition?

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  Quote SearchAndDestroy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 19:07

Actually there is a evolution that can be viewed besides with bacteria.

Heres a example of re-evolution, its shows DNA always holds the make up for what was past and if its ever needed again, for a advantage in nature, it can come back. Now this species didn't have wings for 50 MILLION years.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/01/15/1042520672205.html ?oneclick=true

This isn't the site with the info I wanted, but its the same two species. One species of stick bug evolved in two, one grew a stripe, but did come from a species that didn't have it. This happened recently, well within 10-15 years and I beleave its called rapid evolution.

http://www.smithsonianmag.si.edu/smithsonian/issues02/oct02/ phenomena.html

Heres one last example: http://www.dinosauria.com/jdp/evol/lizard.html

Now for religeon, while religeon isn't always the reason for war, it seems to be used for a major tool for war. A few examples, like in the crusades the Pope called on knights, he said that all knights who would fight for the cause and went to the holy land would get redemption and go to heaven no questions asked. Now knowing that knights fight and kill all the time, according to their religeon they'd be going to hell. So ofcourse every knight went, it was their profession basicly to fight and kill but none wanted to goto hell.

WW2, Hitler said jews were evil, just because of their religeon, and because of religeon millions were killed, just for what they beleaved in. Now if Judaism didn't exist these people might have all lived, ofcourse another group would have been chosen, but I'm willing to bet it wouldn't have been as easy of a target as the jews were.

Now-a-days Osama bin laden called a jihad, so muslims who probably wouldn't have joined felt the need to, they were taught not to allow the Christians who defended thejews into their holy lands. The terrorist, insurgents, or whatever you want to call them always claim they are working for their god and beleave when they die they will be given a spot in heaven and virgin wives.

So to me religeon is away for propaganda, so bring people raised in their religeon to fight for a cause that they probably wouldn't do if taught differently. Religeon is dangerous, there are other spiritual paths to take. But having a god who can sit back and allow his own people to fight, to hardwire brutal intentions in our minds that come to us so naturally so it seems, but then says not to kill?

Evolution made us a competitor, we evolved to fight and its what made us survive. We are a exploring species always leaping forward in technology to reach for what we want, we are a species of curiosty always wanting to know whats beyond a point, and we are a species of war, the farther down the line we go we still have wars perhaps tribal instincts embedded in our minds that evolution hasn't taken out, a primal instinct.

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