"god, good spirit" in Hindu religion, from Skt. deva "a god," originally "a shining one," from *div- "to shine," thus cognate with Gk. dios "divine" and Zeus, and L. deus "god" (O.Latin deivos);
O.E. Tiwesdæg, from Tiwes, gen. of Tiw "Tiu," from P.Gmc. *Tiwaz "god of the sky," differentiated specifically as Tiu, ancient Gmc. god of war, from PIE base *dyeu- "to shine"
Some non-Iranians do know the history of Iranian languages better than most of the Iranians because of a simple fact: they bloody know the linguistics and dealed with the subject. I don't want to be mean, but you on the other hand, didn't know even the basic phonetic terms like fricative or plosive before I introduced them in a debate about Avestan phonology, let alone the comparative method, so what's up?? Of course, I'm not one of those.
Accordingly, some non-Germanic-speaking people (even Persians, Pashtoons etc.) know the history of Germanic languages much better than most of Norwegians, Swedes, Germans, English etc. for the very same reasons.
It has been said numerous times to you, that mass comparison is not science anymore and the others have given you articles dealing with the subject. You used some silly we-are-not-talking-about-some-unrelated-languages argument, which implies, that you didn't understand the article at all.
So unless you prove by comparative method, that 'teva' is the cognate to deva and not 'div', you have nothing.
A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.
The problem is that you think there is just a single unchangeable law of sound change about Iranian languages, but it is certainly wrong, you will be right, if you say the Persian word for "two" is "do", not "to", but what is the Persian word for "to", again "do"?
O.E. to "in the direction of, for the purpose of, furthermore," from W.Gmc. *to (cf. O.S., O.Fris. to, Du. too, O.H.G. zuo, Ger. zu "to"), from PIE pronomial base *do- "to, toward, upward" (cf. L. donec "as long as," O.C.S. do "as far as, to," Gk. suffix -de "to, toward," O.Ir. do, Lith. da-).
You should believe that in numerous cases, proto-IE "d" has been changed to "t" in the Iranian languages too, this is the reason that Teva is very holy word but Daeva which could be just a loanword from the rival Indian religion, is one of the most sinister words in the Iranian languages.
"god, good spirit" in Hindu religion, from Skt. deva "a god," originally "a shining one," from *div- "to shine," thus cognate with Gk. dios "divine" and Zeus, and L. deus "god" (O.Latin deivos);
supreme god of the ancient Greeks, 1706, from Gk., from PIE *dewos- "god" (cf. L. deus "god," O. Pers. daiva- "demon, evil god," O.C.S. deivai, Skt. deva-), from base *dyeu- "to gleam, to shine;" also the root of words for "sky" and "day" (see diurnal). The god-sense is originally "shining," but "whether as originally sun-god or as lightener" is not now clear.
Much depends on the meaning of the word daiva,
which clearly means
'demon' and looks similar to the word daeva in the Avesta,
the holy book of Zoroastrianism
.
If daiva and daeva are
identical, we can assume that the
rebels lived in Iran, where the Zoroastrian religion was influential.
However, if these
words are not the same, daiva
may refer to the gods of Babylonia
or Egypt.
on..
4. King Xerxes says:
when I became king, there was among these countries one that was in
rebellion.
Ahuramazda bore me aid. By the grace of Ahuramazda I smote that country
and put it down in its place.
And among these countries there was a place where
previously demons
(daiva) were worshipped. Afterwards, by the grace of
Ahuramazda
I destroyed that sanctuary of demons, and I proclaimed: 'The demons
shall
not be worshipped!' Where previously the demons were worshipped, there
I worshipped Ahuramazda at the proper time and in the proper manner.
And
there was other business that had been done ill. That I made good. That
which I did, all I did by the grace of Ahuramazda. Ahuramazda bore me
aid
until I completed the work
You should believe that in numerous cases, proto-IE "d" has been changed to "t" in the Iranian languages too, this is the reason that Teva is very holy word but Daeva which could be just a loanword from the rival Indian religion, is one of the most sinister words in the Iranian languages.
I know that you aren't much of a friend with sources, but could you give me any claiming that Teva is related to Deus, that there was a prevocalic d -> t shift in Iranian languages and that Persian تا is an inherited word and cognate to English 'to'?? Because I found just that it's a loanword from Sanskrit यथा (yathā). This is on wiktionary though, and I don't consider it a trustworthy source.
Edited by Slayertplsko - 19-Apr-2009 at 11:29
A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.
"ta" has some different meanings in Persian, I can say for sure that one of it meanings is "two", as you read here: http://www.wikiled.com/persian-english-t_00e2-Default.aspx its first meaning is a "fold", the reason is that the middle Persian verb Tavistan means "to twist, to double up, to divide in two", the interesting thing is that for this reason modern Persian "tabidan" and "taftan" not only mean "to shine" but also "to twist".
1373, from O.Fr. taffetas (1317), from It. taffeta, ult. from Pers. taftah "silk or linen cloth," noun use of taftah, pp. of taftan "to shine," also "to twist, spin." Applied to different fabrics at different times (and cf. tapestry).
1434, variant of tapissery (1426), from M.Fr. tapisserie "tapestry" (14c.), from tapisser "to cover with heavy fabric," from tapis "heavy fabric," from O.Fr. tapiz (12c.), from V.L. *tappetium, from Byzantine Gk. tapetion, from classical Gk., dim. of tapes (gen. tapetos) "tapestry, heavy fabric," probably from an Iranian source (cf. Pers. taftan, tabidan "to turn, twist"). The figurative use is first recorded 1581.
Well, Cyrus, you've just managed to answer your own point: Modern Persian "ta" with the meaning "two" is not ethymologically related to English two, German Zwei, Latin duo of Greek δυο. It is merely a regressive derivate from a verb meaning "to fold", hence "to double up".
Therefore the phonetic law d > t you conjure out of thin air is not proven as applying to Iranian languages.
That is "Tavistan" which comes from "ta/tav", not vice versa, you should know about the origin of the words, you probably say the Modern Persian verb Tarkidan (to split) or Tarke (Twig) -> http://www.wikiled.com/persian-english-tarke-Default.aspx don't relate to "two" but they have also the same origin.
There are numeous words in Persian that we see just Latin/Greek "d" sound has been changed to "t", you can even compare English loanwords, for example Tass, from Persian Tash "dish, bowl" and Latin origin word Dish.
Excuse me, how would dish, from Greek diskos ''disk'' (via Latin), from dikein ''to throw'' be related to tasse, from Persian tasht (via Old French and Arabic)??
A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open.
Could you please analyse the word tekan, indicating which is the root, which is the suffix and listing 2-3 other verbs in the same mood (infinitive, I presume), of the same flexionary class?
I could not locate anything remotely similar either in Old Persian or in Avestan and I am therefore very interested in how Farsi works from a grammatical perspective.
Tekan is actually an action noun which is derived from the verb tekandan (to propel, to push), of course it can be considered as an exception because in Persian action noun is usually formed from the present stem of the verb by adding the suffix -esh but tekan is just the present stem of the verb tekandan, so the proper action noun should be tekanesh that we never use in Persian!
Tekan is actually an action noun which is derived from the verb tekandan (to propel, to push), of course it can be considered as an exception because in Persian action noun is usually formed from the present stem of the verb by adding the suffix -esh but tekan is just the present stem of the verb tekandan, so the proper action noun should be tekanesh that we never use in Persian!
Don't we say "Be'tekanesh" as the action word?
The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest.
~ Khushal Khan Khattak
Iranians never considered Daeva as their god but he was the god their enemies, so we see however Persian kings were tolerant of all religions but they never tolerate those who worshiped Daevas, as Xerxes says: "And among these countries there was a place where previously Daevas were worshipped. Afterwards, by the favor of Ahuramazda, I destroyed that sanctuary of the Daevas, and I made proclamation, The Daevas shall not be worshipped!", XERXES, PERSEPOLIS H. (XPh) ).
I join in the discussion a bit late... It is interesting to note that in literary Finnish the word for "sky" is "taivas" and in some dialects it is still "taevas". This makes me wonder if
a) It is a loanword from Iranian enemies or
b) the Iranian enemies and Finno-Ugrian ancestors may have worshipped the same deity or
c) the Iranian enemies were Finno-Ugrians?
The languages are still spoken fragmentarily in large parts of the central and northern Russia. Furthermore, the fact that those languages are still spoken regardless of the pressure by the Slavic languages makes me hypothesize about connection between Sarmatians or Scythians and Finnic or Ugrian peoples, respectively. Otherwise there is no space for the ancient FU peoples in the world history - where would have they been when Sarmatians and Scythians ruled in the neighborhood?
Finnish "Taivas"could be related to both Germanic Tiwaz and Persian Teva/Tava that I mentioned in the first post of this page, of course the Persian word doesn't mean "sky", but like Sanskrit Deva, it means "a shining one", from the Persian verb Tevan "to shine", for example with the suffix "-esh" that I talked about in my last posts, there is the action noun "Tavesh/Tabesh": http://www.wikiled.com/persian-english-t_00e2besh-Default.aspx that as you see it means "brilliance, light, shining".
The Persian word for sky is Asman, but as I mentioned in this thread: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28631 in the Avestan language, the word Thwasha is also used for "sky", the difference between them is, as you read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asman Asman is the "highest heaven," and is distinguished from the firmament (thwasha), which lies nearer the earth.
Of course it is also said, as you read here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04405c.htm "That Thwasha was once the head of the Iranian pantheon is perhaps indicated by so early a witness as Herodotus (I, cxxxi), and much later by Damascius."
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot create polls in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum