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eaglecap 
Tsar 
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 15-Feb-2005 Location: ArizonaUSA Online Status: Offline Posts: 3959 |
 Quote Reply
 Topic: Greek OrthodoxyPosted: 07-Dec-2007 at 19:55 |
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Akolouthos thanks for the info the icon belonged to my late Yia Yia who was from Korinthos but came to America in the 1920's. There is a lady at the Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox church in Spokane who knows a lot about icons. It was funny when she pointed out a worn out area on the face of the icon and indicated that is where your late Yia Yia kissed her icon. It is probably this very icon she prayed over when my papoo did not come home one night. He worked in the forests of upstate New York gathering evergreens to sell to whole sellers, his own buisness. It turned out he had been mugged by some bad guys in the woods and left for dead. She had spent the whole night, I read, praying to God, Jesus and probably this saint and others.
The icon is from Greece- the motherland |
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Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε
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Akolouthos
Sultan 
Joined: 24-Feb-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2091 |
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Posted: 08-May-2008 at 07:16 |
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No problem. Always happy to help someone acquaint themselves with the Fathers. Most of the opposition to orthodox Christian truth derives from people being unaware of or unacquainted with the finer points of the history of Christian theology. The issue of the veneration of icons is a perfect example. I trust your grandfather made it home safe that night?
-Akolouthos
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Nestorian
Pretorian 
Joined: 08-Jul-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 161 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 31-Aug-2008 at 15:38 |
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I dont believe in the use of icons myself personally, but neither do I have any opposition to it. But it interests me the role of images in religious life and practice. The Orthodox/Catholics are one end of the "image use" spectrum while the Protestants are on the opposite "no image use" end.
Me, I'm not too bothered about it. Sometimes I have a print out of a Medieval Roman (Byzantines - I hate that term!) icon in my room. I don't pray to it. I have it because I like it :)
I respect Orthodox Christianity very highly, I wanted to be one when I was 14yrs of age or so. Ended up being Pentecostal. Now, I'm non-denominational, but still practising.
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Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign
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arch.buff
Colonel 
Joined: 18-Oct-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 606 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 31-Aug-2008 at 16:56 |
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Hello Nestorian,
I couldn't agree with you more! I also very much so appreciate Orthodox Iconography. This may be a silly question, seeing as how you've already stated you are non-denominational, but are you opposed to praying to the actual saint that is depicted in the icon? Prayers are directed to the saint associated with the icon; not the actual icon itself. Just a lil clarification.
Abundant blessings,
arch.buff
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Be a servant to all, that is a quality of a King.
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Vorian
Colonel
Joined: 06-Dec-2007 Location: Greece/Hellas Online Status: Offline Posts: 566 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 31-Aug-2008 at 17:16 |
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I was born Orthodox (now I am not so sure) and i have a real problem with saints. They practically are just replacements of local deities and heroes of paganist times.
St. Nicholas protector of sailors St. Ilias whose churches are always built on mountain peaks and he supposedly went to heaven on a fire chariot (smells of Apollo and the sun god or what?) etc etc |
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Akolouthos
Sultan
Joined: 24-Feb-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2091 |
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Posted: 31-Aug-2008 at 18:21 |
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Well, the difference is that we do not pray to the saints for action, but for intercession. We do not believe they have any intrinsic power associated with their persons. We do believe that they are great intercessors by virtue of their close union with God. It really helps to view prayer to the saints as another form of asking others to pray for us, which we do on a daily basis. As for their association with specific topics of intercession, we must remember that they experienced the same ups and downs of life that we do, and it is this sympathy to which the power of God lends special significance. If you have any questions, I'd be happy to discuss them with you.
-Akolouthos
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Vorian
Colonel
Joined: 06-Dec-2007 Location: Greece/Hellas Online Status: Offline Posts: 566 |
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Posted: 31-Aug-2008 at 18:51 |
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I know what it's supposed to be but in essence most people believe that the saint himself performs miracles. In Greece there are churches everywhere for local saints, not mentioning the gazilions of different names for Holy Mother and the miraculous icons that bleed or cry.
I just can't see how it's much different from ancient hero or local god worshiping besides the fact that we believe in One God. Personally I can't believe that any dead human can hear my prayers or intervene to God for me no matter what great Christianic deed he/she did. |
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Akolouthos
Sultan
Joined: 24-Feb-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2091 |
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Posted: 31-Aug-2008 at 19:18 |
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I know, and I sympathize. The answer, however, is vigorous catechesis. There are many aberrant practices and beliefs regarding the veneration of the saints, but the answer is not to throw out proper orthopraxy with the false practices. The answer is to instruct people in precisely what orthodox practice is, and where they have been led astray. And the icons that bleed or cry are used by God to pour forth his grace unto the world. They are not, in themselves, holy; they are holy by virtue of the fact that they represent the divine and project His grace.
But they are not dead, at least not from a Christian perspective, where the dead continue to live in Christ. They are spiritually very much alive in Him, and on the day of Ressurection will be reunited with their glorified human bodies. And they could not hear your prayers, much less answer them, unless God permitted it, which he does as evidenced by the miracles and testimony of the Church down through the ages. If you look to the Book of Revelation, you will note that the dead saints (or "holy ones") are not only alive in Christ, but are also intimately concerned about the well-being of the Church in the world. The Church militant and the Church triumphant are united in Christ who pours forth life upon both.
-Akolouthos
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Nestorian
Pretorian
Joined: 08-Jul-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 161 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 01:48 |
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Hello Nestorian,
I couldn't agree with you more! I also very much so appreciate Orthodox Iconography. This may be a silly question, seeing as how you've already stated you are non-denominational, but are you opposed to praying to the actual saint that is depicted in the icon? Prayers are directed to the saint associated with the icon; not the actual icon itself. Just a lil clarification.
Abundant blessings,
Hey bud. I wouldn't say I'm opposed to praying to an actual saint. Although I've never actually prayed to one. Its something I don't really think about actually! I'd love to own though - although I think modern icons just don't have that "bling" I look for
 My approach to Christianity is based on the Bible and not any tradition of the established churches. Mind you, this is no intended disrepect to the traditions of the Orthodox Church!
If I was suppose to join a denomination though, I'd probably go either:
a) Evangelical
b) Orthodox
c) Church of the East (Assyrian)
But for the meantime, I'm happy to be non-denominational.
Its a bit unfortunate these days that some churches closely identify themselves with a particular ethnic group, political party of a political state. I mean look at Georgia and Russia, both Orthodox Christian states.....I'd hate to think that both sides are claiming God on their side! Whats even worse if both sides are claiming intercession from their respective national patron saints in their wars!
Reading the Letter of James, one gets a clear command that Christians are suppose to live as good citizens of society by living as citizens of Heaven. There is no mention of political partisanship or favouritism towards a particular ethnic group by either Jesus or the apostles. Nor is there a hint of nationalism which was running rampant in Jesus' time with agitation for the re-establishment of the Kingdom of Israel.
Thats why i remain non-denominational, there is just too much baggage with a denominational tag.
 HTen again......maybe I just want to be free! |
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Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign
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Carpathian Wolf
General 
BANNED Joined: 06-Jun-2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 884 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 03:00 |
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For the comment concerning that saints are just replacements for old dieties:
We don't actually pray for them to help us in the literal sense. It is like asking someone else to pray for us.
As for the comment saying that people that are "dead" can not hear us:
Death has been defeated. The veil has been split. There is no barrier between us and those that rest.
As for the comment "My approach to Christianity is based on the Bible and not any tradition of the established churches. Mind you, this is no intended disrepect to the traditions of the Orthodox Church!":
But the Bible does just that. It does talk about Tradition. The term gets a bad reputation if you study it through Protestant eyes which look at the many mistakes the papal church in the west made concerning indulgences and selling "shards of the true cross" etc. The bible specifies that we must follow tradition spoken and written. When choosing what christian faith you want to be a part of you must look at the church because the church isn't just a building you get in together. It is a living thing, the Body of Christ. And you must ask yourself does this Body of Christ reach back to Christ himself, and if it does not can it really be considered the body of Christ?
To explain a bit my perspective, I was born an Orthodox Christian but my parents were never really that faithful. We didn't go to church that often. When I was younger my mother worked for a Lutherin Church and we went to one of the services. And I said to my parents "I don't want to be Orthodox Christian anymore. Just Christian. Why split myself up from everyone else? We should be unified." I did my last two years of high school in a protestant private school and there is where I became closer to the Orthodox Church.
Going back to my statement of "Does this Body of Christ go back to Christ himself" which can also be said "Does this Church go back to Christ's Church or the Church of the 1st century itself." I challenge you to ask yourself this any time you go to a non Orthodox Church. The Bible says "The gates of hell shall NOT prevail against my Church." Meaning that there will never be a moment in which the Church shall fall under heresy, never falter, never cease to exist. Is the Church perfect? Now you may quickly say "But the Orthodox Church isn't perfect either." I say it is. What you are speaking of is the people in it, and all people are flawed. We are like flawed beads in a perfect bowl.
Next because the Orthodox Church is the Body of Christ and it is perfect, as God is perfect we must also consider that any tiny small deviation is no longer Orthodox, is no longer the Body of Christ, it is no longer of God. So while non denominational may seem like neutral ground, I personally consider it a form of theological purgatory. (Ironic huh) I'm not placing judgement on you, no where near that, just giving you my opinion. We are all on our journey. Here's a story however. Several years ago I went to the Antiochian Village in PA and there I met a short Greek man. He must have been in his late 60s or 70s. He told me how he grew up Orthodox but by college left the Church. He wanted to be a psychiatrist. He became an atheist. Frued and Nietzsche were his gods. He himself said he was very arrogant and would often debate his peers. Even though he was very short and old he seemed very sharp and strong willed. After school he got a job as a psychoanalysis for the mental criminals on death row. After many years of doing that he concluded that there had to be a God. Something while doing that convinced him. So he went to a baptist church and met his wife and from there those two researched church history and they both returned to Orthodox Christianity. It took him a life time to find his place but he did it. I'll always remember that story and it's been inspiring to me.
If you have any more questions post here and if I don't get to it in a few days PM me. I'd love to discuss it more and it probably keeps me from doing dumber things like worrying about crap in the politics section. :p It all comes and passes but God is Eternal.
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Nestorian
Pretorian
Joined: 08-Jul-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 161 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 08:30 |
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Yes, the Bible does specify about traditions. If I recall, Paul himself made mention of traditions of his day. However, they are reflections of contemporary practice in his times. Traditions are called traditions because of their complimentary nature to the commandments of scripture. Now whether they are observed from generation to generation is a different story. Indeed, traditions change over the centuries according to specific and localised influences over time. My faith is simple. I don't follow any traditions, but I respect the right of other Christians to practise them. As far as I'm concerned, the Church is the body of Christ regardless of sect, denomination or organisation. The problem of saying "my Church is the right church, yours is not" is the power struggle that inevitably occurs. I was once a Pentecostal who thought that any Christian who wasn't a Pentecostal was wrong. I am glad to admit, I am wrong. I appreciate the practices of Catholics, Orthodox and other Protestant groups. THey may have practices are contradictory in terms of tradition and teaching, but they all agree on matters of orthodoxy regarding the Trinity, Salvation, Eternal Life and person of Christ. Choosing a denomination - especially one which asserts it is the only spokesperson of Christ - will mean I have to take sides in futile power-play.
Looking at the early history of the Church (after Constantine I), they were more concerned with the prestige of offices based on what Apostle visited where and who had the relics of such and such. All these things are so shallow and earthly. Patriarchs were more interested in defending the prestige of their See and involved themselves to vie for temporal influence.
You misunderstand me though. I'm not looking for a perfect church. I'm just not interested in affiliating with a particular Church. When I mean baggage, I'm not talking "bad deeds". I can tell the difference between those who are Christian and those who are "Christian".
As for my theological position, here it is. I believe that:
1. Jesus is the Son of God, is God, is unbegotten, uncreated and is the Creator
2. There is only One God, there are no other gods
3. God is a Trinity
4. Jesus was crucified, died on the cross and rose from the dead
5. My only mediator is Christ alone
6. The only authority to whom I am accountable to is God
7. The Church is the body of Christ regardless of sect, denomination or traditions
Maybe the term "non-denominational" carries its own baggage too. I don't see the need or imperative to be part of a denomination. Do I need to be part of a denomination?
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Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign
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Carpathian Wolf
General
BANNED Joined: 06-Jun-2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 884 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 09:33 |
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Perhaps Paul wasn't refering to the specific tradition of the times and many have survived from his time. But following tradition itself. For example crossing myself is a tradition and I try to do it before I eat, before I commence a task etc. To some this is pointless but to me, each time I do it it reminds me of God. As long as that tradition points toward God I think it is worth having.
But they don't all agree on the Trinity, Salvation or Eternal life or Christ. Some say the Holy Spirit comes from the Father and the Son. You may think of this as semantics but if you follow this conclusion you will lead yourself to a very un trinitarian theology. Father Son and Holy Spirit are all God and one, but they are 3 different persons with their own uniqueness about it. If both Father and Son have the same begotteness nature it destroys the Trinity. Papists realize this and because of it the Holy Spirit becomes more of an "aura" between Father and Son while installing Mary as the third person in the trinity. Salvation like wise, take baptism. Sprinkling or submersion. It is very clear concerning the latter. Likewise what is marriage and what role does it play, clergy and so on and so forth. When two things contradict they can not be both right and if you say that something that is wrong is part of Christ then Christ is inperfect, so he is not God. I mean this is what you are telling me.
I'm not denominational either. I'm pre denominational if you want to be technic about it. Being "non denominational" for the sake of not debating others I think is a poor choice in my humble opinion but yours to make.
I don't think the Orthodox Church has ever claimed to be the spokesperson for Christ. The Orthodox Church is like a hospital for sick souls, not a political house even though some corrupt emperors and bishops may have tried to use it as such.
Which people were concerned with this? What Patriarchs? These are empty accusations unless you specify who and back it up. And even if these people made the mistakes that they did, even if some follow the Faith poorly does this mean the Faith is bad?
If you are not looking for a Perfect Church you are not looking for the Body of Christ (who is perfect.) A flawed church will teach a flawed faith. Am I wrong?
You don't need to do anything. If you want to follow Christ's teachings as intended however you must find the Church that has maintained the Faith for 2,000 years. If not they are simply the ideas and notions of man.
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Nestorian
Pretorian
Joined: 08-Jul-2006 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 161 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 12:22 |
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Perhaps Paul wasn't refering to the specific tradition of the times and many have survived from his time. But following tradition itself. For example crossing myself is a tradition and I try to do it before I eat, before I commence a task etc. To some this is pointless but to me, each time I do it it reminds me of God. As long as that tradition points toward God I think it is worth having.
Even if it is worth having, is it mandatory? I think not. The Pharisees had a lot of traditions themselves, good in intention, but was it mandatory?
But they don't all agree on the Trinity, Salvation or Eternal life or Christ. Some say the Holy Spirit comes from the Father and the Son. You may think of this as semantics but if you follow this conclusion you will lead yourself to a very un trinitarian theology. Father Son and Holy Spirit are all God and one, but they are 3 different persons with their own uniqueness about it. If both Father and Son have the same begotteness nature it destroys the Trinity. Papists realize this and because of it the Holy Spirit becomes more of an "aura" between Father and Son while installing Mary as the third person in the trinity. Salvation like wise, take baptism. Sprinkling or submersion. It is very clear concerning the latter. Likewise what is marriage and what role does it play, clergy and so on and so forth. When two things contradict they can not be both right and if you say that something that is wrong is part of Christ then Christ is inperfect, so he is not God. I mean this is what you are telling me.
I refer to Churches with the specific meaning of those who accept the Chalcedonian and Nicene Creeds - regardless of current sectarian/denominationa differences. I know there are Christians who don't believe in the Trinity. As for micro-details like the filioque, I tend to agree more with the Orthodox side. But its a micro-detail, its inconsequential...Micro-details have caused a lot of stupid arguments and schisms to the detriment of laymen everywhere.
I am not telling you Christ is imperfect at all, you're trying to find a monster under a rock.
Which people were concerned with this? What Patriarchs? These are empty accusations unless you specify who and back it up. And even if these people made the mistakes that they did, even if some follow the Faith poorly does this mean the Faith is bad?
Aren't you aware of the competition between the Patriarchates for influence, prestige and power. Patriarch Nestorius was a victim of theological slander and was exiled from office thanks to the Alexandrian Patriarch.
Oh geez, what the heck are you on! I know the difference between religion and someone not following the religion...I'm not saying the Orthodox Church (or any Church) is bad at all....I'm just saying the behaviour of people - leadership - was pretty appalling and embarrassing.
I'm not denominational either. I'm pre denominational if you want to be technic about it. Being "non denominational" for the sake of not debating others I think is a poor choice in my humble opinion but yours to make.
Well good for you. I didn't choose the term "non-denominational" to make friends or please people. If you think its a poor choice....its really up to you. I couldn't care less about your pedantic technicalities.
I don't think the Orthodox Church has ever claimed to be the spokesperson for Christ. The Orthodox Church is like a hospital for sick souls, not a political house even though some corrupt emperors and bishops may have tried to use it as such.
If it doesn't speak for Christ what does it speak for? Or is the Catholic Church the true Church and only Church for God to do his will? The established ancient Churches all claim a singular exclusive right of being the sole and only true representative of the universal body of Christ.
If you are not looking for a Perfect Church you are not looking for the Body of Christ (who is perfect.) A flawed church will teach a flawed faith. Am I wrong?
Aw geez, here we go again. Makin assumptions about me again. I'm not looking for perfect Church means I'm not looking for a perfect flawless Church which is sinless and faultless. People think that I dont choose a denominational because no Church is sinless...thats rubbish if it was misinterpreted in that manner. And who says people have to rely on the Church to teach them about their faith anyway?
A Christian's journey is individual, they can't simply rely on the Church to teach them everything can they?
I choose not to become a part of a denomination simply because of the baggage that entails being part of a denomination such as its traditions. Am I doing something wrong by refusing to partake of the traditions?
You don't need to do anything. If you want to follow Christ's teachings as intended however you must find the Church that has maintained the Faith for 2,000 years. If not they are simply the ideas and notions of man.
If I want to folow Christ's teachings, a denomination is not important at all. Who says I need to join a denomination or Church? Traditions are also ideas and notions of man. They are complimentary practices alongside Biblical commandments developed by the faithful over time.
Is it so bad to be non-denominational? I'm not criticising any Church at all, I've made that clear.
I give up.......no wonder why Christians are doomed to fight each other. |
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Isa al-Masih, both God and Man, divine and human, flesh and spirit, saviour, servant and sovereign
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Carpathian Wolf
General
BANNED Joined: 06-Jun-2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 884 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 19:04 |
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Even if it is worth having, is it mandatory? I think not. The Pharisees had a lot of traditions themselves, good in intention, but was it mandatory?
Has anyone ever forced you to kiss an icon? To cross yourself? To confess?
I refer to Churches with the specific meaning of those who accept the Chalcedonian and Nicene Creeds - regardless of current sectarian/denominationa differences. I know there are Christians who don't believe in the Trinity. As for micro-details like the filioque, I tend to agree more with the Orthodox side. But its a micro-detail, its inconsequential...Micro-details have caused a lot of stupid arguments and schisms to the detriment of laymen everywhere.
I am not telling you Christ is imperfect at all, you're trying to find a monster under a rock.
These "micro-details" if incorrect lead to very macro problems concerning the theology. There is no opinion to be had on Truth. It either is or it is not.
Aren't you aware of the competition between the Patriarchates for influence, prestige and power. Patriarch Nestorius was a victim of theological slander and was exiled from office thanks to the Alexandrian Patriarch.
Oh geez, what the heck are you on! I know the difference between religion and someone not following the religion...I'm not saying the Orthodox Church (or any Church) is bad at all....I'm just saying the behaviour of people - leadership - was pretty appalling and embarrassing.
Nestorius was a heretic that taught the nature of Christ was split.
Sometimes the leadership was bad. I don't disagree with that. Again how does this fault Orthodoxy? I believe it faults only the person. Just as I say Orthodoxy does not automatically make someone rightous, I also say the unrightous does not make Orthodoxy automatically flawed.
As a side note the Orthodox Church is set up is that when one of the Bishops falls into heresy a council can be held and the heresy can be discussed. When for example the pope falls into heresy, the entire papal church goes with it.
Well good for you. I didn't choose the term "non-denominational" to make friends or please people. If you think its a poor choice....its really up to you. I couldn't care less about your pedantic technicalities.
That's fine.
If it doesn't speak for Christ what does it speak for? Or is the Catholic Church the true Church and only Church for God to do his will? The established ancient Churches all claim a singular exclusive right of being the sole and only true representative of the universal body of Christ.
Why does it have to speak for anything? You're thinking is very western oriented in my opinion. Again the Church isn't a political building but a hospital. Yes the Orthodox Church claims to be the Body of Christ. And?
Aw geez, here we go again. Makin assumptions about me again. I'm not looking for perfect Church means I'm not looking for a perfect flawless Church which is sinless and faultless. People think that I dont choose a denominational because no Church is sinless...thats rubbish if it was misinterpreted in that manner. And who says people have to rely on the Church to teach them about their faith anyway?
A Christian's journey is individual, they can't simply rely on the Church to teach them everything can they?
But there is a Church that is faultless and sinless. The bible says so. The gates of hell shall not prevail against God's Church. The issues you have with man you must forgive and let go. The issues you have with the Church are simply due to misunderstanding.
Didn't the Ethiopian say "How will I know unless you teach me?" in scripture?
I choose not to become a part of a denomination simply because of the baggage that entails being part of a denomination such as its traditions. Am I doing something wrong by refusing to partake of the traditions?
I think you have to figure out for yourself what traditions you have a problem with and why. It states clearly in scripture to follow them, but at the same time they are not an end in and by themselves. It isn't "kiss the icon go to heaven." It is "Kiss the icon to aim yourself more toward God." All holy traditions point toward God.
If I want to folow Christ's teachings, a denomination is not important at all. Who says I need to join a denomination or Church? Traditions are also ideas and notions of man. They are complimentary practices alongside Biblical commandments developed by the faithful over time.
Alright if you are Holy enough to do everything for yourself more power to you. I hope to get to heaven with you.
Again the bible specifies we should follow tradition.
Is it so bad to be non-denominational? I'm not criticising any Church at all, I've made that clear.
I think there are better choices to be made that's all.
I give up.......no wonder why Christians are doomed to fight each other.
I'm not fighting anybody. |
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Antioxos
Consul 
Joined: 26-Apr-2006 Location: Hellas Online Status: Offline Posts: 340 |
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Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 20:55 |
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In Orthodoxy Christianity praying in icons is very strong traditions.Thats why almost every orthodox family house s has iconostasis - icon corner usually in the bedroom where the icons are in a corner of the room .
Well here is my icon corner in the bedroom of my house with two icons and a cross .
In one from the icons i have also inside the crowns of my marriage .
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Carpathian Wolf
General
BANNED Joined: 06-Jun-2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 884 |
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Posted: 01-Sep-2008 at 23:56 |
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And even then we do not pray to the paint or the wood but to God. An icon was first used to help people who could not read, understand the bible. In a way it is another form of writing and reading using pictures. Just as with the cross we do not worship the cross but God and the act of love he did for us.
I believe it was Saint John of Damascus who said "When the cross is whole I kneel down infront of it and pray, but when the wooden bars are broken apart, i throw it into fire for embers." This was done in refrence (IIRC) concerning the use of Icons. |
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Vorian
Colonel
Joined: 06-Dec-2007 Location: Greece/Hellas Online Status: Offline Posts: 566 |
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Posted: 02-Sep-2008 at 01:07 |
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@ Akolouthos Yeah, but the question here is......how do we know which has God proclaimed saints? Cause it's the church that decides and not all decisions were right. Even emperor Constantine the Great and his mother was named a saint for PR reasons. |
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Akolouthos
Sultan
Joined: 24-Feb-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 2091 |
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Posted: 02-Sep-2008 at 01:20 |
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Actually, his mother, St. Helen, was quite pious. You will remember that it was she who likely had a good deal of influence on his conversion, and that she toured the Levant founding Churches, patronizing existing communities, and collecting relics. We trust in the guidance of the Holy Spirit, present in the Church, to determine who has been received as a saint. In a broader context, we are all saints, and indeed called to be saints.
-Akolouthos
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Vorian
Colonel
Joined: 06-Dec-2007 Location: Greece/Hellas Online Status: Offline Posts: 566 |
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Posted: 02-Sep-2008 at 01:28 |
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St. Helen was pious but so is my grandmother. She even gathered money to travel to Israel and pray in the Holy Lands, much greater sacrifice than the mother of an emperor.
And what St.Helen had was abundant imagination finding things and naming them relics from a time 3 centuries before her. I guess one of history's mysteries is whose poor soul's cross as the one that she dubbed as Christ's And the Church. both Orthodox and Catholix has been ruled by really not pious men who judged people as saints. Do you see my doubts now? |
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arch.buff
Colonel
Joined: 18-Oct-2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 606 |
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Posted: 02-Sep-2008 at 04:30 |
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Hello again Nestorian!
Thank you for your response. I can certainly see how you would feel more free in your present non-denominational church. I myself am a member of the Catholic church and feel myself bound to those truths revealed through apostlic tradition. St. Ireneaus gives a good example of how we view this tradition:
"That is why it is surely necessary to avoid them [heretics], while cherishing with the utmost diligence the things pertaining to the Church, and to lay hold of the tradition of truth. . . . What if the apostles had not in fact left writings to us? Would it not be necessary to follow the order of tradition, which was handed down to those to whom they entrusted the churches?" (Ireneaus, Against Heresies 3:4:1)
When St. Ireneaus talks of -"those to who they entrusted the churches"- he is making an allusion to St. Paul's speech to Timothy:
"What you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Timothy 2:2)
This here is referred to as apostolic succession, a succession that is carried on today. This Tradition is not the same thing as human traditions, which are liable and able to change with the winds.
However, I whole heartedly agree with you in regards to nationalism. Especially when its taken to the max. That is, when certain peoples view themselves as "the elect nation", and hold themselves to be incomparably holy people. Such is the matter, if Im not mistaken, in the case of the Orthodox Church of Serbia in the mid 20th Century.
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Be a servant to all, that is a quality of a King.
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