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Kerry vs Bush

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Poll Question: Who will you vote for and why?
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JanusRook View Drop Down
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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Kerry vs Bush
    Posted: 25-Aug-2004 at 15:24

b) false (the nations supported and harbored terrorists)

Technically we should invade ourselves, everyday we knowingly harbor and support previous terrorists, current terrorists and future terrorists.

They are doing their best to protect the innocent; if they pulled out now their would be far worse chaos and carnage.  If they left Saddam in there would be his repression and killing of his own people, plus the threat that he would finish his development of WMD, as I suspect Iran probably is trying to do.  At least somebody in Iran.

So what if he oppressed his people, we're only telling people we fought for that. Currently we support Saudi Arabia, where Magic the Gathering card GAME(!!!) is illegal and you or I must drive on a special "heathen" highway.

Besides this is how I saw the whole Iraq war.

Bush: Saddam get rid of your WMDs

Saddam: Ok

UN guys: Ok he's agreed let us in

Saddam: Ok [hides weapons so deep in the desert he can't even get to them for the next 5 years]

UN guys: Uh we didn't find anything

Saddam: See nothing to hide

Bush: He's lying

UN guys: No he's not?!?!

Bush: So he's lying, american public can you believe he's lying! That's it he tried to kill my daddy* he's supporting Osama [the most secular leader in the region a religious fanatic] and he has WMD's.

Some washington guy: Don't forget the violent regime

Bush: uh yea that too, let's get him!

 

*sorry about the you tried to kill my daddy comment, the whole things is basically a joke (much like the Iraqi War)

Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.

Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.
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  Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2004 at 16:14

Originally posted by MixcoatlToltecahtecuhtli


No, he hasn't overthrown the worst ones. In early 2003 human rights groups made a list of the 10 worst dictatorships. The worst was off course North Korea, the second Saudi Arabia (that nice US ally) and Iraq was third. (IIRC Turkmenistan, also a US ally was 4th, so that means the USA has 2 allies amongst the 3 worst dictatorships).

Besides: How on earth can you justify the attack of a sovereign state by saying you want to bring democracy if you meanwhile support many dictatorships?

Good point.  I agree. I am, as I mentioned, an isolationist, when at all possible.  I do not advocate messing with the rest of the world; I have just been defending Bush's moves so far.  I would actually hope to pull out of the UN, break off all treaties, and focus strictly on national security.  Before 9/11 I would have advocated this, without reservation, but now I think that it was necessary to be preemptive regarding this threat.  I do not think that any more action is warranted, unless a further attack can be traced to another government, and then the example of these two can be used to pressure any government that sponsors terror.  See the example of Libya.

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  Quote Roughneck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2004 at 18:44

Liberal New Yorkers welcome conservative Republicans - sort of

From false directions to sassy T-shirts, residents greet conventioneers in authentic and irreverent ways.

By Harry Bruinius | Correspondent of The Christian Science Monitor

NEW YORK - When Peter Shankman was a smart-aleck teen carousing on the streets of Manhattan years ago, he and his buddies would sometimes make fun of the deer-in-the-headlight tourists gaping at maps, trying to find their way.

"Oh, you want to get to the Statue of Liberty?" they would snicker to themselves. "OK, easy. Get on the uptown No. 1 train, get off at 137th Street. Make sure you're wearing a lot of jewelry, then ask anyone there - and make sure you tell them you're a tourist!" (Hint: That's a stop in Harlem, a 40-minute subway ride from the Statue of Liberty.)

They never actually followed through, says Mr. Shankman, now a marketing executive in the city where he was born and raised. But as New Yorkers brace for an onslaught of Republican delegates this weekend, a handful are saying they just might take up such "disinformation campaigns" as the Republicans come to town. In fact, the former three-term mayor, Ed Koch, has been urging his notoriously liberal fellow citizens to "make nice" with their conservative GOP guests.

It's not just that 5 out of 6 registered voters here are Democrats. New York has long been a bastion of artistic libertines and avant-garde intellectuals, as well as workaday unionists, making it one of the most left-leaning regions in the country. Socialists still hand out pamphlets on college campuses - and are taken seriously - and anarchists aren't simply teens with body piercings and a fondness for punk.

Of course, such political eccentricity can make New Yorkers myopic and parochial, too. As film critic Pauline Kael said in bewilderment after Richard Nixon trounced George McGovern in 1972, "Nobody I knew voted for Nixon!"

Add to this political bent New Yorkers' infamous in-your-face demeanor, and some begin to worry. Philadelphia votes almost as Democratic as New York City, after all - as do most big cities - but no one had to urge the "City of Brotherly Love" to "make nice" when the Republicans held their convention there four years ago.

"New Yorkers, obviously, have a reputation for expressing their opinions," says Jonathan Tisch, chairman of NYC & Co., the city's convention and tourism bureau. "And so even though they may see some Republicans and tell them how they feel politically, my sense is that they'll do it with a smile, and they'll help find a restaurant or the Museum of Modern Art."

City boosters may have a reason to proclaim their confidence that New Yorkers will make nice next week, of course, but a significant number of residents are indeed planning to express their ire in a more civil way. And while much is being said about visiting protesters and fears of violence, most of the locals are looking for particularly New York ways to counter the Republican deluge.

"A lot of people are upset - it's like New Yorkers are being used for political gain," says Randy Anderson, a playwright who decided to organize "The Unconvention: An American Theater Festival," a series of politically charged plays and panel discussions that will be held three blocks from the convention.

"The big driving force is that we're choosing to respond to the Republicans choosing New York City as their convention site and moving it so close to Sept. 11," Mr. Anderson says. "Our main focus with these productions is to get people to think more politically and to become more actively engaged as citizens, so it's not as if we're bashing folks."

Indeed, this will be the first time the GOP will hold its convention in New York City, while the Democrats have held five conventions here, including 1976, 1980, and 1992. "The general feeling is, of all the cities you could pick, why New York?" asks Shankman. "If the World Trade Center had been in Akron, Ohio, the convention would be there right now. They come here, shut everything down, just for a political prop."

Yet, even as "Republicans Go Home" signs are displayed in apartment windows, thousands of residents have also volunteered to serve as "ambassadors" for the delegations coming in from around the country, says Mr. Tisch. And while out-of-towners may try to cause trouble, most New Yorkers plan to express their own displeasure in more benign ways.

"Our method of street protesting has gotten a little more peaceful, because we don't want to see the violence - that doesn't get anything accomplished," says Anderson. "I think people are little wiser to that, whereas the pranks and the off-the-wall stuff that a lot folks were doing in the '60's doesn't really apply to what's in our society today."

Alice Leeds, a communications director for Parents, Families and Friends of Lesbians and Gays, is planning to march with her chow chow dog. She'll wear a white T-shirt emblazoned with a red, white, and blue elephant lying dead on its back. Her dog, too, will be wearing a shirt: one featuring a "W" slashed through with the red prohibition symbol.

"As a proud New York City resident and equally proud Democrat, I'm proud to show my stripes - in a gentle way," Ms. Leeds says. "At least I'm actually staying in town. Most of my friends are fleeing."

"But in the end, if one of the invading Republican throng were to ask me for directions or where to find a public john - el grande problemo - I know I'll be friendly and kind," she continues. "I have no choice: My dog has one of those dropped-jaw, perpetually smiling and inviting dog faces that fairly screams, 'Welcome.' "

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Aug-2004 at 21:14
the right wing protects constitution freedoms????????? Maybe back before I was born, ever heard of the patriot act?  Just the fact that Johnny Ashcroft hold any position outside a Klan rally is too much.
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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  Quote warlord Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2004 at 01:43
...

Edited by warlord - 16-Jun-2008 at 06:35
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2004 at 07:53
Originally posted by Roughneck


Wouldn't be so sure. Britain was numero uno in 1900. Where were
they within 50 years? Each subsequent dominant power gets to spend
less time at the top.



I agree China will be next.

For the Iraqi subject. I am very clear and simple: "If you want to help
someone go to Sudan but please leave the Iraqi's alone."
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  Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2004 at 13:00

Originally posted by Tobodai

the right wing protects constitution freedoms????????? Maybe back before I was born, ever heard of the patriot act?  Just the fact that Johnny Ashcroft hold any position outside a Klan rally is too much.

Generally the right wing does, though sometimes "in the interest of national security" they do something wrong like that.  Also a new, bad encroachment was the McCain-Feingold campaign finance law.  A blatant infringement.  Nevertheless, it is usually the coservative judges who support the constitution, and the liberal ones that favor revisionism.  The left wing (I speak in generalities) usually supports redistribution of wealth by means of taxing .

The government has no constitutional right to tax in order to redestribute!  Every handout had to be taken from someone else, with a nice thick cut off the top going to beaurocracy.

On an unrelated note, recently the media have stated that since the taxcuts, the rich's share of taxation has decreased.  That is true, but not the whole truth.  Actually, this is a product of the contraction of the economy.  If everyone's income falls 10%, the rich's share will fall since they pay a higher marginal rate.  Further, a Treasury Department report indicates that this year the top 1% will pay 32.3% of taxes, but if the tax cuts hadn't occured, they would have paid only 30.5%.  Also, note that the tax cuts took millions of low income households off the tax rolls completely....

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Aug-2004 at 21:45

I totally agree with you here. I am 100% capitalist and I dont like income redistribution one bit.   Same with gun ownership, you could count me most extremely conservative on that issue than any other.

But I also dont like politicians that want to meddle in peoples personal lives, conservative laws regulating consensual sex, who can marry who, abortions etc.  If government can regulate these things..thats just damn scary.

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I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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  Quote Rebelsoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2004 at 04:01

JanusRook

 

I'd like to say I disagree with you but I don't both of those people are/were dangerous. So do you think right-wing = dangerous or right-wing idiot = dangerous?


Well, weve established that ultra-right wing = extremely dangerous, so the idiot part is just to add flavor


True it was a cheap shot but it wasn't without justification. We don't know the ramifications on this war on terror (which at least publically has some justification i.e. get rid of terrorists). However the US had a valid excuse to attack Afghanistan (they harbored Osama). I do agree that Iraq had no justification, but hey nations all over the world engage in stupid invasions. (Falklands anyone?)


Yes, Afghanistan could be justified under extreme circumstances. But the excuses for Iraq were not only poor, not only silly, but downright fabricated and fake. And even after admitting yeah, we lied to you, but it was all in the best intentions, nobody has resigned for blatantly lying to the public about such an issue.


Those are indications that democracy does not work in neither USA nor UK. In a democratic country Bush and Blair would be now under trial for treason. In USA and UK  they keep on governing and they even got a decent chance to get reelected! If that aint absurd and dangerous, I dont really know the meaning of these words.


 

Again I still don't think Bush deserves as much distaste from you as he receives but then again I'm as stubborn as anyone else here so I'm unlikely to change my opinion. (Unless there's some really huge scandal or something.)


what I mention above does not constitute a really huge scandal? Enron wasnt a really huge scandal? What would be a really huge scandal? Hmm according to what many Americans consider a scandal, that would be to screw his secretary 
 

I like to play devil's advocate. They don't call me the lord of chaos and wisdom for nothing.


I think you are just of the playful kind


DSMyers1


Reagan was very sharp; and his administration through its aggrexive confrontation of the Soviets brought about the end of the Soviet Union.  I do believe that the beaurocracy has grown far beyond reason, and does to some extent drive the elected official's results.  I don't know who you think is driving this presidency, the oil industry perhaps?  I don't buy it.  Oil has some influence, but not that much.


Well, again, thats your opinion. If you wish for a stereotypical answer, you can take the infamous military/industrial complex as one not that youd buy it, but thats a valid answer.  As I said, Ronnies presidency shaped the world, but Ronnie himself was the last man who got to knew what was going on a mere puppet.


a) true
b) false (the nations supported and harbored terrorists)
c) the right wing generally protects our constitutional rights better than the democrats
d) the poor would be considered pretty rich in many nations, and they do have some hope of advancement through hard work.  Besides, the rich obtained their money lawfully (for the most part), usually from their ancestor's hard work.  The rich here are mostly rich because of what they or their family contributed to society.  They have a right to that reward; it is not the government's right to redistribute personal property
e) I'm not "tolerant,"  I try to stick with what the Bible says.  And if you consider the democrats right wing, I am really glad we don't have left-wingers!


a) OK
b) Wrong (Iraq wasnt and that is proven, and since when supporting terrorism is a reason to invade? By that criteria we should invade USA, its supporting more terrorists than Afghanistan has population)
c) Your constitutional rights do not coincide with the international law and order as a matter of fact, usually its colliding with it. And since Reps tend to operate like USA is the best, screw the rest (while the Dems at least listen to the international community) I dont like them.
d) Thats an old and rather silly excuse. Poor in Europe faire 100% better than their US counterparts we dont have 10 mi. homeless in the whole continent, with 440 mi. population. And about the rich obtaining their money lawfully well, thats reasonable and sure they did: the Rich have manufactured and voted for the laws they are making their money on. If the fact that 1% of the nation is commanding 84% of the nations wealth, while paying only 30% of the nations taxes, isnt alarming, I think you really deserve whats coming towards you (that would be neo-feudalism, with 99% of the Americans as neo-serfs).
e) you seem to stick to the Old testament part of the bible, then. And, yes, by any European criteria, the Dems are quite right wing (with some center elements, as I said in a previous post). But then again, even the traditional Left (social democrats, for instance) in Europe has turned Central-Right (with a couple of noticeable exceptions) so its not that gross anymore.


 

I have seen no reason to consider him an idiot.


I think you should go to your optical, you need new glasses.


 

Well, I'm glad then!  We have some solid standards of right and wrong still!

 

Keep them, keep them for yourself, please.


 

I am not saying that poor stewardship is acceptable, just that I think the environmental problems are often overblown.  The US does a better job with keeping the environment clean than many other nations (I'm thinking China here..)


No its not. USA is contributing to the global pollution as much as the whole frigging world combined together. So, how are you doing a better job???


 

They are doing their best to protect the innocent; if they pulled out now their would be far worse chaos and carnage.  If they left Saddam in there would be his repression and killing of his own people, plus the threat that he would finish his development of WMD, as I suspect Iran probably is trying to do.  At least somebody in Iran.


Ill refrain from commenting on that

 



Edited by Rebelsoul
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  Quote Gallipoli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2004 at 08:58

 

STOP DISCUSSING

FAKE PRESIDENTS

SEE AND READ THE REAL ONES

HERE ARE SOME SPEECHES FROM JOHN F KENNEDY WHO WAS BRUTALLY MURDERED ON NOVEMBER 22 1963 BY CONSPIRATORS WHO RANGED FROM THE DALLAS POLICE OFFICIALS TO LYNDON BAILES JOHNSON AND TO RICHARD NIXON.

"Ask not what your country can do for you;ask what you can do for your country"

Kennedy's Words After His Inaguration

Kennedy's Berlin speech

Berliners are marking the 40th anniversary of former US president John F Kennedy's "Ich bin ein Berliner" speech.

The speech was perhaps the most famous single moment of the Cold War.

More than a million West Berliners had gathered to hear the US president, and they responded with a great roar of approval.

The text of the speech, made in Berlin on 26 June 1963:

I am proud to come to this city as the guest of your distinguished Mayor, who has symbolised throughout the world the fighting spirit of West Berlin.

And I am proud to visit the Federal Republic with your distinguished chancellor who for so many years has committed Germany to democracy and freedom and progress, and to come here in the company of my fellow American, General Clay, who has been in this city during its great moments of crisis and will come again if ever needed.

There are many people in the world who really don't understand, or say they don't, what is the great issue between the free world and the Communist world - let them come to Berlin
John F Kennedy

Two thousand years ago the proudest boast was "civis Romanus sum". Today, in the world of freedom, the proudest boast is "Ich bin ein Berliner".

I appreciate my interpreter translating my German!

'Vitality and force'

There are many people in the world who really don't understand, or say they don't, what is the great issue between the free world and the Communist world. Let them come to Berlin.

There are some who say that Communism is the wave of the future. Let them come to Berlin.

And there are some who say in Europe and elsewhere we can work with the Communists. Let them come to Berlin.

And there are even a few who say that it is true that Communism is an evil system, but it permits us to make economic progress. Lass' sie nach Berlin kommen. Let them come to Berlin.

All free men, wherever they may live, are citizens of Berlin, and, therefore, as a free man, I take pride in the words "Ich bin ein Berliner".
John F Kennedy

Freedom has many difficulties and democracy is not perfect, but we have never had to put a wall up to keep our people in, to prevent them from leaving us.

I want to say, on behalf of my countrymen, who live many miles away on the other side of the Atlantic, who are far distant from you, that they take the greatest pride that they have been able to share with you, even from a distance, the story of the last 18 years.

I know of no town, no city, that has been besieged for 18 years that still lives with the vitality and the force, and the hope and the determination of the city of West Berlin.

'Part of the main'

While the wall is the most obvious and vivid demonstration of the failures of the Communist system, for all the world to see, we take no satisfaction in it, for it is, as your mayor has said, an offence not only against history but an offense against humanity, separating families, dividing husbands and wives and brothers and sisters, and dividing a people who wish to be joined together.

Freedom is indivisible, and when one man is enslaved, all are not free
John F Kennedy

What is true of this city is true of Germany - real, lasting peace in Europe can never be assured as long as one German out of four is denied the elementary right of free men, and that is to make a free choice.

In 18 years of peace and good faith, this generation of Germans has earned the right to be free, including the right to unite their families and their nation in lasting peace, with good will to all people.

You live in a defended island of freedom, but your life is part of the main.

So let me ask you as I close, to lift your eyes beyond the dangers of today, to the hopes of tomorrow, beyond the freedom merely of this city of Berlin, or your country of Germany, to the advance of freedom everywhere, beyond the wall to the day of peace with justice, beyond yourselves and ourselves to all mankind.

'Front lines'

Freedom is indivisible, and when one man is enslaved, all are not free.

When all are free, then we can look forward to that day when this city will be joined as one and this country and this great continent of Europe in a peaceful and hopeful globe.

When that day finally comes, as it will, the people of West Berlin can take sober satisfaction in the fact that they were in the front lines for almost two decades.

All free men, wherever they may live, are citizens of Berlin, and, therefore, as a free man, I take pride in the words "Ich bin ein Berliner".

Kennedy's Speech At The American University 10 June 1963

President Anderson, members of the faculty, board of trustees, distinguished guests, my old colleague, Senator Bob Byrd, who has earned his degree through many years of attending night law school, while I am earning mine in the next 30 minutes, ladies and gentlemen:

     It is with great pride that I participate in this ceremony of the American University, sponsored by the Methodist Church, founded by Bishop John Fletcher Hurst, and first opened by President Woodrow Wilson in 1914. This is a young and growing university, but it has already fulfilled Bishop Hurst's enlightened hope for the study of history and public affairs in a city devoted to the making of history and the conduct of the public's business. By sponsoring this institution of higher learning for all who wish to learn, whatever their color or their creed, the Methodists of this area and the Nation deserve the Nation's thanks, and I commend all those who are today graduating.

     Professor Woodrow Wilson once said that every man sent out from a university should be a man of his nation as well as a man of his time, and I am confident that the men and women who carry the honor of graduating from this institution will continue to give from their lives, from their talents, a high measure of public service and public support.

     "There are few earthly things more beautiful than a university," wrote John Masefield in his tribute to English universities--and his words are equally true today. He did not refer to spires and towers, to campus greens and ivied walls. He admired the splendid beauty of the university, he said, because it was "a place where those who hate ignorance may strive to know, where those who perceive truth may strive to make others see."

     I have, therefore, chosen this time and this place to discuss a topic on which ignorance too often abounds and the truth is too rarely perceived--yet it is the most important topic on earth: world peace.

     What kind of peace do I mean? What kind of peace do we seek? Not a Pax Americana enforced on the world by American weapons of war. Not the peace of the grave or the security of the slave. I am talking about genuine peace, the kind of peace that makes life on earth worth living, the kind that enables men and nations to grow and to hope and to build a better life for their children--not merely peace for Americans but peace for all men and women--not merely peace in our time but peace for all time.

     I speak of peace because of the new face of war. Total war makes no sense in an age when great powers can maintain large and relatively invulnerable nuclear forces and refuse to surrender without resort to those forces. It makes no sense in an age when a single nuclear weapon contains almost ten times the explosive force delivered by all the allied air forces in the Second World War. It makes no sense in an age when the deadly poisons produced by a nuclear exchange would be carried by wind and water and soil and seed to the far corners of the globe and to generations yet unborn.

     Today the expenditure of billions of dollars every year on weapons acquired for the purpose of making sure we never need to use them is essential to keeping the peace. But surely the acquisition of such idle stockpiles--which can only destroy and never create--is not the only, much less the most efficient, means of assuring peace.

     I speak of peace, therefore, as the necessary rational end of rational men. I realize that the pursuit of peace is not as dramatic as the pursuit of war--and frequently the words of the pursuer fall on deaf ears. But we have no more urgent task.

     Some say that it is useless to speak of world peace or world law or world disarmament--and that it will be useless until the leaders of the Soviet Union adopt a more enlightened attitude. I hope they do. I believe we can help them do it. But I also believe that we must reexamine our own attitude--as individuals and as a Nation--for our attitude is as essential as theirs. And every graduate of this school, every thoughtful citizen who despairs of war and wishes to bring peace, should begin by looking inward--by examining his own attitude toward the possibilities of peace, toward the Soviet Union, toward the course of the cold war and toward freedom and peace here at home.

     First: Let us examine our attitude toward peace itself. Too many of us think it is impossible. Too many think it unreal. But that is a dangerous, defeatist belief. It leads to the conclusion that war is inevitable--that mankind is doomed--that we are gripped by forces we cannot control.

     We need not accept that view. Our problems are manmade--therefore, they can be solved by man. And man can be as big as he wants. No problem of human destiny is beyond human beings. Man's reason and spirit have often solved the seemingly unsolvable--and we believe they can do it again.

     I am not referring to the absolute, infinite concept of peace and good will of which some fantasies and fanatics dream. I do not deny the value of hopes and dreams but we merely invite discouragement and incredulity by making that our only and immediate goal.

     Let us focus instead on a more practical, more attainable peace-- based not on a sudden revolution in human nature but on a gradual evolution in human institutions--on a series of concrete actions and effective agreements which are in the interest of all concerned. There is no single, simple key to this peace--no grand or magic formula to be adopted by one or two powers. Genuine peace must be the product of many nations, the sum of many acts. It must be dynamic, not static, changing to meet the challenge of each new generation. For peace is a process--a way of solving problems.

     With such a peace, there will still be quarrels and conflicting interests, as there are within families and nations. World peace, like community peace, does not require that each man love his neighbor--it requires only that they live together in mutual tolerance, submitting their disputes to a just and peaceful settlement. And history teaches us that enmities between nations, as between individuals, do not last forever. However fixed our likes and dislikes may seem, the tide of time and events will often bring surprising changes in the relations between nations and neighbors.

     So let us persevere. Peace need not be impracticable, and war need not be inevitable. By defining our goal more clearly, by making it seem more manageable and less remote, we can help all peoples to see it, to draw hope from it, and to move irresistibly toward it.

     Second: Let us reexamine our attitude toward the Soviet Union. It is discouraging to think that their leaders may actually believe what their propagandists write. It is discouraging to read a recent authoritative Soviet text on Military Strategy and find, on page after page, wholly baseless and incredible claims--such as the allegation that "American imperialist circles are preparing to unleash different types of wars . . . that there is a very real threat of a preventive war being unleashed by American imperialists against the Soviet Union . . . [and that] the political aims of the American imperialists are to enslave economically and politically the European and other capitalist countries . . . [and] to achieve world domination . . . by means of aggressive wars."

     Truly, as it was written long ago: "The wicked flee when no man pursueth." Yet it is sad to read these Soviet statements--to realize the extent of the gulf between us. But it is also a warning--a warning to the American people not to fall into the same trap as the Soviets, not to see only a distorted and desperate view of the other side, not to see conflict as inevitable, accommodation as impossible, and communication as nothing more than an exchange of threats.

     No government or social system is so evil that its people must be considered as lacking in virtue. As Americans, we find communism profoundly repugnant as a negation of personal freedom and dignity. But we can still hail the Russian people for their many achievements--in science and space, in economic and industrial growth, in culture and in acts of courage.

     Among the many traits the peoples of our two countries have in common, none is stronger than our mutual abhorrence of war. Almost unique among the major world powers, we have never been at war with each other. And no nation in the history of battle ever suffered more than the Soviet Union suffered in the course of the Second World War. At least 20 million lost their lives. Countless millions of homes and farms were burned or sacked. A third of the nation's territory, including nearly two thirds of its industrial base, was turned into a wasteland--a loss equivalent to the devastation of this country east of Chicago.

     Today, should total war ever break out again--no matter how--our two countries would become the primary targets. It is an ironic but accurate fact that the two strongest powers are the two in the most danger of devastation. All we have built, all we have worked for, would be destroyed in the first 24 hours. And even in the cold war, which brings burdens and dangers to so many nations, including this Nation's closest allies--our two countries bear the heaviest burdens. For we are both devoting massive sums of money to weapons that could be better devoted to combating ignorance, poverty, and disease. We are both caught up in a vicious and dangerous cycle in which suspicion on one side breeds suspicion on the other, and new weapons beget counterweapons.

     In short, both the United States and its allies, and the Soviet Union and its allies, have a mutually deep interest in a just and genuine peace and in halting the arms race. Agreements to this end are in the interests of the Soviet Union as well as ours--and even the most hostile nations can be relied upon to accept and keep those treaty obligations, and only those treaty obligations, which are in their own interest.

     So, let us not be blind to our differences--but let us also direct attention to our common interests and to the means by which those differences can be resolved. And if we cannot end now our differences, at least we can help make the world safe for diversity. For, in the final analysis, our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this small planet. We all breathe the same air. We all cherish our children's future. And we are all mortal.

     Third: Let us reexamine our attitude toward the cold war, remembering that we are not engaged in a debate, seeking to pile up debating points. We are not here distributing blame or pointing the finger of judgment. We must deal with the world as it is, and not as it might have been had the history of the last 18 years been different.

     We must, therefore, persevere in the search for peace in the hope that constructive changes within the Communist bloc might bring within reach solutions which now seem beyond us. We must conduct our affairs in such a way that it becomes in the Communists' interest to agree on a genuine peace. Above all, while defending our own vital interests, nuclear powers must avert those confrontations which bring an adversary to a choice of either a humiliating retreat or a nuclear war. To adopt that kind of course in the nuclear age would be evidence only of the bankruptcy of our policy--or of a collective death-wish for the world.

     To secure these ends, America's weapons are nonprovocative, carefully controlled, designed to deter, and capable of selective use. Our military forces are committed to peace and disciplined in self- restraint. Our diplomats are instructed to avoid unnecessary irritants and purely rhetorical hostility.

     For we can seek a relaxation of tension without relaxing our guard. And, for our part, we do not need to use threats to prove that we are resolute. We do not need to jam foreign broadcasts out of fear our faith will be eroded. We are unwilling to impose our system on any unwilling people--but we are willing and able to engage in peaceful competition with any people on earth.

     Meanwhile, we seek to strengthen the United Nations, to help solve its financial problems, to make it a more effective instrument for peace, to develop it into a genuine world security system--a system capable of resolving disputes on the basis of law, of insuring the security of the large and the small, and of creating conditions under which arms can finally be abolished.

     At the same time we seek to keep peace inside the non-Communist world, where many nations, all of them our friends, are divided over issues which weaken Western unity, which invite Communist intervention or which threaten to erupt into war. Our efforts in West New Guinea, in the Congo, in the Middle East, and in the Indian subcontinent, have been persistent and patient despite criticism from both sides. We have also tried to set an example for others--by seeking to adjust small but significant differences with our own closest neighbors in Mexico and in Canada.

     Speaking of other nations, I wish to make one point clear. We are bound to many nations by alliances. Those alliances exist because our concern and theirs substantially overlap. Our commitment to defend Western Europe and West Berlin, for example, stands undiminished because of the identity of our vital interests. The United States will make no deal with the Soviet Union at the expense of other nations and other peoples, not merely because they are our partners, but also because their interests and ours converge

     Our interests converge, however, not only in defending the frontiers of freedom, but in pursuing the paths of peace. It is our hope-- and the purpose of allied policies--to convince the Soviet Union that she, too, should let each nation choose its own future, so long as that choice does not interfere with the choices of others. The Communist drive to impose their political and economic system on others is the primary cause of world tension today. For there can be no doubt that, if all nations could refrain from interfering in the self-determination of others, the peace would be much more assured.

     This will require a new effort to achieve world law--a new context for world discussions. It will require increased understanding between the Soviets and ourselves. And increased understanding will require increased contact and communication. One step in this direction is the proposed arrangement for a direct line between Moscow and Washington, to avoid on each side the dangerous delays, misunderstandings, and misreadings of the other's actions which might occur at a time of crisis.

     We have also been talking in Geneva about the other first-step measures of arms control designed to limit the intensity of the arms race and to reduce the risks of accidental war. Our primary long range interest in Geneva, however, is general and complete disarmament-- designed to take place by stages, permitting parallel political developments to build the new institutions of peace which would take the place of arms. The pursuit of disarmament has been an effort of this Government since the 1920's. It has been urgently sought by the past three administrations. And however dim the prospects may be today, we intend to continue this effort--to continue it in order that all countries, including our own, can better grasp what the problems and possibilities of disarmament are.

     The one major area of these negotiations where the end is in sight, yet where a fresh start is badly needed, is in a treaty to outlaw nuclear tests. The conclusion of such a treaty, so near and yet so far, would check the spiraling arms race in one of its most dangerous areas. It would place the nuclear powers in a position to deal more effectively with one of the greatest hazards which man faces in 1963, the further spread of nuclear arms. It would increase our security--it would decrease the prospects of war. Surely this goal is sufficiently important to require our steady pursuit, yielding neither to the temptation to give up the whole effort nor the temptation to give up our insistence on vital and responsible safeguards.

     I am taking this opportunity, therefore, to announce two important decisions in this regard.

     First: Chairman khrushchev, Prime Minister Macmillan, and I have agreed that high-level discussions will shortly begin in Moscow looking toward early agreement on a comprehensive test ban treaty. Our hopes must be tempered with the caution of history--but with our hopes go the hopes of all mankind.

     Second: To make clear our good faith and solemn convictions on the matter, I now declare that the United States does not propose to conduct nuclear tests in the atmosphere so long as other states do not do so. We will not be the first to resume. Such a declaration is no substitute for a formal binding treaty, but I hope it will help us achieve it.

     Finally, my fellow Americans, let us examine our attitude toward peace and freedom here at home. The quality and spirit of our own society must justify and support our efforts abroad. We must show it in the dedication of our own lives--as many of you who are graduating today will have a unique opportunity to do, by serving without pay in the Peace Corps abroad or in the proposed National Service Corps here at home.

     But wherever we are, we must all, in our daily lives, live up to the age-old faith that peace and freedom walk together. In too many of our cities today, the peace is not secure because the freedom is incomplete.

     It is the responsibility of the executive branch at all levels of government--local, State, and National--to provide and protect that freedom for all of our citizens by all means within their authority. It is the responsibility of the legislative branch at all levels, wherever that authority is not now adequate, to make it adequate. And it is the responsibility of all citizens in all sections of this country to respect the rights of all others and to respect the law of the land.

     All this is not unrelated to world peace. "When a man's ways please the Lord," the Scriptures tell us, "he maketh even his enemies to be at peace with him." And is not peace, in the last analysis, basically a matter of human rights--the right to live out our lives without fear of devastation--the right to breathe air as nature provided it--the right of future generations to a healthy existence?

     While we proceed to safeguard our national interests, let us also safeguard human interests. And the elimination of war and arms is clearly in the interest of both. No treaty, however much it may be to the advantage of all, however tightly it may be worded, can provide absolute security against the risks of deception and evasion. But it can--if it is sufficiently effective in its enforcement and if it is sufficiently in the interests of its signers--offer far more security and far fewer risks than an unabated, uncontrolled, unpredictable arms race.

     The United States, as the world knows, will never start a war. We do not want a war. We do not now expect a war. This generation of Americans has already had enough--more than enough--of war and hate and oppression. We shall be prepared if others wish it. We shall be alert to try to stop it. But we shall also do our part to build a world of peace where the weak are safe and the strong are just. We are not helpless before that task or hopeless of its success. Confident and unafraid, we labor on--not toward a strategy of annihilation but toward a strategy of peace.

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  Quote JanusRook Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2004 at 10:27

But the excuses for Iraq were not only poor, not only silly, but downright fabricated and fake. And even after admitting yeah, we lied to you, but it was all in the best intentions, nobody has resigned for blatantly lying to the public about such an issue.

Agreed:

I do agree that Iraq had no justification

what I mention above does not constitute a really huge scandal? Enron wasnt a really huge scandal?

Enron was a large scandal but it was separate from the current administration and connected to the government at whole. Enron started their dirty tricks during the Clinton administration, they just happened to be caught during Bush's administration.


A really huge scandal to me would be something like Bush is actually getting nations/groups to perform terrorist attacks on the US so he can go on "just" wars.

Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative.

Unless otherwise noted source is wiki.
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  Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2004 at 12:55

Originally posted by Gallipoli

STOP DISCUSSING

FAKE PRESIDENTS

SEE AND READ THE REAL ONES

This thread is about the campaign

Rebelsoul:  I would like to hear what you believe the ideal governmental positions for the US are.  What you think their position should be on all the major issues that you can think of.  Please be precise.  Then I will answer them with my positions and what errors I see in yours.  Then you reply.  Sort of a debate with a more exact format.

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  Quote Roughneck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 22:52

A really huge scandal to me would be something like Bush is actually getting nations/groups to perform terrorist attacks on the US so he can go on "just" wars.

While I don't think Bush allowed 9/11 to happen (although he did "allow" it), he did clearly take advantage of it to further his family's own personal agenda.  That qualifies as a big scandal to me, one truly worthy of impeachment.  And Cheney as head of Halliburton during the 90s while it worked in Iraq...if Iraq was truly our enemy (and they were, just not a dangerous one), then he is guilty of treason.

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  Quote Roughneck Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Aug-2004 at 23:00
Conservatives for Kerry? Here's Your Man.
An Old Nixon Hand Smacks the Bushes

By Michael Powell
Washington Post Staff Writer
Sunday, August 29, 2004; Page D01

LITCHFIELD, Conn. -- Utter three words -- George Walker Bush -- and watch eminent author Kevin Phillips, a longtime Republican, a former Nixon aide and past party theoretician, pucker like he has inhaled a pickle.

"I've never understood why we take Bush and his family seriously," he says. "They come from the investment-inherited-money wing of the Republican Party. They display no real empathy for anyone who is not of their class."

He pauses a few seconds as his fingers execute a tap dance on his picnic table.

"They aren't supply-siders; they're crony-siders. As far as I'm concerned, I would put Bush on a slow boat to China with all full warning to the Chinese submarine fleet."

Silence again. Phillips sits on his back porch and looks at you from under hooded eyes, with only the vaguest hint of a chipmunk smile. He's a curious cat, this 63-year-old Nixon-era Republican populist. His best-selling, muckraking book on the family that has held the presidency for eight of the past 16 years, "American Dynasty: Aristocracy, Fortune and the Politics of Deceit in the House of Bush," is a sustained rummage through the Bush family closet. He pulls out all manner of files on the early Bushes and the Walker branch of the family, and their dealings with post-World War I German industrialists and post-World War II Saudi princelings. And he draws a bright connecting line between those wheeler-dealer financiers and their Texas-lite descendants.

Phillips's bottom line is unsparing. He describes the Bushes as second-tier New England monied types who made the strategic move from Greenwich, Conn., to Midland, Tex., just as the nation's power pendulum took a southern swing. This was not a particularly daring strike into the interior. Rather, like proper Wall Street capitalists, the Bushes and many other financier families had sniffed the scent of sweet cash and sent a relative or two to investigate.

Texas, Phillips writes, "represented one of the century's great American wealth opportunities."

The Bushes settled in a west Texas city that, far from being the cowboy wildcatter's paradise of political myth, was a leafy enclave thick with Ivy League scions, street names such as Princeton and Harvard, and enough Wall Street gilt to keep everyone in country club fees.

As it happens, this state and that family have come to embody everything that Phillips can't stand about turn-of-the-century America. Texas is wealthy and obsessed with the accumulation of more. It's economically polarized and ranks 42nd in per-capita state spending. Its Republican elite seem splendidly immune to guilt.

"Texas civic culture," Phillips writes, "more akin to that of Mexico, Venezuela and Brazil, has accepted wealth and its benefits with minimal distraction by guilt and noblesse oblige."

Phillips elaborates on this critique during an interview. "George W. is the first president to come directly out of the oil industry, even if he was a failure at the actual business of looking for it," he says. "And who did he pick as his vice president? Another man from the oil industry. It's astonishing that nobody really questions the implications of this."

It's a righteous rap, and the sort of angry and richly detailed critique that one might expect from any number of left-liberal luminaries working the Bush-Just-Might-Signal-the-End-of-the-World circuit. These authors and filmmakers are the toast of Santa Monica and Madison and Cambridge and Montclair and Burlington, and they fire up the Democratic faithful. Except that Phillips doesn't remotely hail from there.

He's a New Yorker, yes, but also a Republican born and bred, a kid who couldn't stand that liberal Republican Nelson Rockefeller. He penned "The Emerging Republican Majority" in 1969, one of the first books to argue that the Sunbelt could catapult the Republicans to national power. And he locates the source of his populist scorn for Bush not in the polemics of the left but in the politics of his hero, Dwight Eisenhower. The former general was a politician who embraced a top marginal tax rate of 90 percent, who warned of the abuses of the military-industrial complex and who -- in Phillips's telling -- had little use for the country club Republican set.

"The Republicans I respected really cared about the meatloaf crowd," Phillips says. "The Bush crowd can call me a pinko if they want, but that really doesn't go down well with people who know anything about politics."

Phillips mentions a recent television appearance with a panel of liberal historians, including Arthur Schlesinger Jr. As Phillips recalls the moment, his fellow panelists spoke of Bush and the Republicans in terms, to Phillips's mind, that were far too mild and tempered. When Phillips's turn came, he said to Schlesinger: "Now you're about to hear the real Republican viewpoint."

And with that Phillips fired both rhetorical barrels at Bush.

As you might expect, Phillips's salvos, and his essays for such liberal magazines as the Nation and the American Prospect, don't amuse conservative Republicans. They talk and write of this former Republican theorist -- now a registered independent -- as a nephew might of a favorite uncle grown dyspeptic and perhaps daft. They describe him as a relic of the Nixon era, which in the vernacular of modern conservatism connotes something akin to dangerous liberalism.

"Like many Nixon admirers, Kevin Phillips left the Republican Party when it shifted its attention away from the nanny state towards a resurgent conservatism," writes Meghan Keene in a review of "American Dynasty" for the American Enterprise Institute. "Phillips . . . has long since distanced himself from Republican principles."

Some go further still. Robert Locke, a columnist with arch-conservative Frontpage.com, lacerated another conservative magazine for daring to print an essay by Phillips. To do so, Locke argues, "is very disturbing, and indeed bordering on political treason." Phillips, he says, has "descended into the muck of crude economic populism."

It's a strange business, this notion that Phillips is beyond the conservative pale and that Richard Nixon was a closet liberal and lover of the welfare state. Except that perhaps there's some truth to this. Nixon endorsed a 50 percent tax rate on the wealthy, courted labor unions and had an instinctive feel for lower-middle-class economic resentments. And far from destroying the welfare state, he proposed a guaranteed minimum income.

Several prominent old Nixon hands, from Patrick Buchanan to former Treasury secretary Peter Peterson, have enunciated tough critiques of Bush's foreign policy and his tax cuts. (Asked recently by Bill Moyers if he needed the Bush tax cuts, Peterson replied: "I'm really almost embarrassed by the idea . . . that I'm going to be getting tax cuts so that my 6-year-old . . . grandchildren can pay bigger taxes in the future.")

None of this surprises Phillips.

"Every time I wrote an attack on Bush Sr., Nixon would send me a handwritten note of praise," Phillips says. "People ask why I won't register as a Democrat. I tell them that after Bush, the [Republican] party may come back. I'm historiographically a Republican."

Phillips has sailed far from the Republican ports of his youth, but he's not comfortable throwing down an anchor in a Democratic harbor. He congratulates Democrats on their journey away from their political and cultural irrelevancy of the 1980s. As he puts it, they learned "the art of shutting up." But he sees a party that, like the Republicans, has developed an umbilical taste for the campaign money flowing from the Wall Street and media elites.

"The Democrats understand that they killed themselves politically when they reached a point where they couldn't talk to the blue-collar worker in South Philadelphia or Queens," he says. "But now they just want to raise as much money as the Republicans, and so they're mute."

He's confounded, too, by the Democrats' inability to savage their opponents. He frowns -- it's as if someone took pliers and pulled out the party's canine teeth. "The Democrats accumulated all this dirt on Bush, but they wouldn't use it," he says. "These people have no taste for the jugular."

Phillips's critique meets with eager nods from the Democratic left. Richard Borosage, a longtime left thinker and activist, has urged Democrats, particularly those of patrician mien like John Kerry, to adopt a populist edge, the better to defuse the cultural attacks of the Republicans. "Phillips has always been scornful of Wall Street Republicans, and he understands that the Republicans are scared of a populist critique," Borosage says. "Phillips and Lee Atwater always warned that a populist Democratic candidate would cause the most problems for Republicans."

Phillips's populism was not bred in the bone. He grew up a bright lad in a middle-class neighborhood of the Bronx. His parents were active Republicans and he found in voting trends and political history the same fascination that his teenage friends discovered in batting averages. Even today, if you ask Phillips about a particular hill county in Tennessee, he will walk you back to the Scots-Irish and their antipathy toward the royalist Cavaliers, and then take you forward to last year's Senate race.

It's this talent, slightly nerdy and invaluable, that piqued the curiosity of Nixon. The presidential candidate heard Phillips expound on how Republicans could reach southern working-class whites and northern Catholics who had been turned off by the Democratic Party's turn to the cultural and social left. "I argued that there were a lot of white ethnics for whom a vote for [John F.] Kennedy was a last hurrah," Phillips recalls.

Nixon hammered at these themes and took key border states in his 1968 election. Nixon sent Phillips to work as a political aide for Attorney General John Mitchell, but Phillips didn't care for much of the Nixon crowd -- H.R. Haldeman and John Ehrlichman deep-sixed most of the young aide's ideas. But he developed an enduring fondness for his strangely awkward president. Nixon was an inchoate man after Phillips's own heart.

"Nixon only liked first-generation millionaires, the guys who had four car dealerships in Los Angeles," Phillips says. "He probably wanted to get into the private golf clubs, but he always knew it would be an uphill struggle."

Phillips left the Nixon White House after about a year. While his writing remained influential within Republican circles for the next decade, he never became a political consultant. Instead he has written 11 well-respected books on history and economics, and made a considerable pile of money writing business newsletters and giving speeches on politics. "I've done well with Bush-o-nomics, no doubt," he says. "Unfortunately, it's disastrous for the country."

Phillips's antipathy for the Bushes took root in the Nixon administration. Nixon, he says, regarded the elder Bush as a lightweight and so assigned him to the United Nations. Nixon then appointed him as chairman of the Republican National Committee, where Bush proved swell at sweet-talking donors into parting with large sums of money for the sake of the party. (In this way, Phillips says, the father prefigured the son. George W. Bush never ran a profitable oil business, but he was terrific at raising copious sums of finance capital and walked away from each oil venture with a fatter bank account).

In the end, though, it's not the money that most galls Phillips, nor even the unseemly origins of the Bush fortune. (Earlier generations of Bushes apparently profited handsomely from World War I contracts and from the reckless lending of bonds to a collapsing Weimar Republic government, not to mention some Bush-Harriman investments in Germany as it rearmed during the 1930s.) Phillips is too much the scholar not to know that scoundrels stand behind most great fortunes.

What bothers him is that generation after generation of Bushes are so unwilling to transcend their class interests.

"An old buccaneer and bootlegger like Joe Kennedy became an SEC head for Roosevelt and cracked down on his own class," Phillips says, adding: "The Bush family would just appoint a Gucci-shoe-licking sycophant. The family has simply developed a culture of being enormously supportive of their class."

Even the president's Texas twang grates on Phillips, whose own accent is clipped and clear and, we must note, a tad patrician. "Listen to them! Assemble the very best panel of linguists you could find and have them listen to brothers Jeb and G.W. -- they wouldn't even guess they're in the same family," Phillips says. "G.W. talks like a cowboy and he's no more a backwoods Texan than I am."

So what's an Nixon-Eisenhower Republican to do when he steps inside a voting booth in November 2004? Phillips shrugs. As it stands, Kerry has his vote, although the text of Phillips's endorsement probably won't appear in any Democratic ads. "I'm hoping that Kerry's a seven on a scale of 10, but I'm afraid maybe he's just a five," Phillips says. "But Kerry's running against a zero. So my choice is clear."

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 00:07
There are alot of people with deep conservative convictions that do not like Bush, as I heard it said, Conservatism has and will survive a term or two under Kerry, but its legitimacy will not survive another term of Bush.
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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  Quote DSMyers1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 07:46

From Rasmussen Reports:

Electoral College 2004

Date Bush Kerry
Aug 29 213 207
Aug 28 200 190
Aug 27 183 193
Aug 22 183 203
Aug 20 183 223
Aug 18 192 223
Aug 17 192 228
Aug 9 197 228
Aug 5 197 232
Aug 3 197 227
July 23 208 227
July 12 197 254
July 9 203 247
July 8 203 226
July 7 203 237
June 21 203 210
June 17 188 227
June 9 177 227

RasmussenReports.com

These are the electoral votes in states that have more than a 5% lead for either one of them.  It seems that Bush has been steadily gaining for about a month now.



Edited by DSMyers1
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  Quote Rebelsoul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 05:34
Originally posted by DSMyers1

Rebelsoul:  I would like to hear what you believe the ideal governmental positions for the US are.  What you think their position should be on all the major issues that you can think of.  Please be precise.  Then I will answer them with my positions and what errors I see in yours.  Then you reply.  Sort of a debate with a more exact format.

 

Well, since you are the American one (and the election involves many more domestic than international issues) I think it would be wise to do it the other way around. You take a stab at it and I'll follow

In the meantime, here's a nice way to to start each day with a positive outlook:

1. Open a new file in your PC (This should work on an Apple, as well)

2. Name it "George W. Bush"

3. Send it to the trash.

4. Empty the trash.

5 Your PC will ask you, "do you really want to get rid of George W.Bush?"

6. Answer calmly, "yes" and press the mouse button firmly.

7. Feel better and vote in November.....

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 05:58
Originally posted by Rebelsoul

1. Open a new file in your PC (This should work on an Apple, as well)

2. Name it "George W. Bush"

3. Send it to the trash.

4. Empty the trash.

5 Your PC will ask you, "do you really want to get rid of George W.Bush?"

6. Answer calmly, "yes" and press the mouse button firmly.

7. Feel better and vote in November.....


LOL!

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  Quote Gallipoli Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 07:36
Well I guess those 400.000 protestors really wanted to get rid of him.
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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2004 at 12:01
It may just be the largest protest in US history, now theres a historical precident Bush can set.
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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