Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
Flipper
Arch Duke
Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813
|
Quote Reply
Topic: Who are the ancient Macedonians ? Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 12:14 |
Originally posted by akritas
Flipper if we continue with that way the AE will lock and this thread.Until now we have the most clear and full argyment debate thread in the net as I ve seen now.Avoid the nationalistic flash!! |
I suggest removal again...
|
Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
|
|
Menumorut
Chieftain
Joined: 02-Jun-2006
Location: Romania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1423
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 13:09 |
Very good question... Ionia is a bit difficult though...You could in the same way doubt the Athenians based on what the Spartans thought about them and the opposite. You could doubt the Aeolians with the same logic. |
What I think is wrong with the adepts of Macedonians=Greeks theory is that they exclude the posibility that Macedonians were not Greeks.
We have the examples of populations in Minor Asia which became Greeks by hellenization, why shouldn't happen the same with Macedonians, when even the Northerner Thracians were completely hellenized?
However, you can see that authors first seem to distinct them but later refer to them as Greeks (ex. Strabo). |
This is not the case with Syracusians or other sure Greeks. I think is explainable: a hellenized population is considered by earlier authors as not-Greek and by later ones as Greek.
My question is, why does nobody dare to question Aristoteles as a Greek? He was from Macedonia...
It was a city in Macedonia that preffered to be independent and democratic...That is why Philip burned it. The city is called Stagira and exists today...
Olynthos is also a Macedonian city that got independence and entered the Athenian league...Now lets see...A city in Macedonia entering a Hellenic league? And oh yeah, they were members of the Panhellenion as well...So was the Kindom of Macedonia.
For some reason when I do questions about Aristotle and his origins people change subject directly...
|
Stagira was founded in 665 by Ionian Greek colonists from Andros. How could be founded a Greek colony in Greek land? A similar history have had all the Greek cities in Chalcidice peninsula, including Olynthos.
Now tell me a good reason why the Macedonians would spead Hellenistic culture and not their own. Why would they care to adopt a "foreign language" and develop it? Besides, doesn't culture and speech define the Hellenes (Isokrates)? |
Look my theory: Macedonians were not a Greek people but Thracians or other ethnic group (maybe a mixage of Thracians and Greeks) which got almost completely hellenized untill 5th century but they preserved the conscience of their non-Greek apartnence untill Alexander. Rome was not yet a great power, the most prestigious was the Greek people and civilization so the Macedonians wished to consider themselves Greeks and to spread the Greek culture.
If a people have Greek culture and language we may consider them Greeks but also we have to clarify their origin.
Remember that before the Hellenistic years and the years when Koine was the common language of the Greeks, the Persians called the Macedonians Yaunas. This was during the war between Greeks and Persians. Doesn't that mean that their pre-Koine language (Makedonisti) was considered Greek to the Persians? |
I think yes. I think the original language of Macedonians vanished earlier.
Do you see any other conqueror to spread diffrent civilization from those that has? |
Yes. The Romans of the Roman empire were, excepting the first centuries of their history, not the people from Rome but the different origin peoples from Italy and later from the whole Mediteranean area.
The ancient authors consider the Macedonians as Greeks. |
From what I have read, I think only the late and uninformed of them considered this.
Can you show me one author that doubt the non-Greek origin of them? |
Many. Look a small part of them in my message in this topic from 17 October 2006 at 6:31pm.
Can someone of the deniers of the macedonians' greekness explain me how had they hellenised from the evil greeks according to your opinion?
Were they conquered by southern Greeks?? |
They were not conquered by Greeks but hellenized voluntary. We see how the voluntary hellenization of Thracians took place:
Most of the Thracians would eventually become Hellenized (in the province of Thrace) or Romanized (in Moesia, Dacia, etc.).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians
|
|
|
akritas
Chieftain
Hegemom
Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Location: Greek Macedonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1460
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 14:22 |
Originally posted by Menumorut
Many. Look a small part of them in my message in this topic from 17 October 2006 at 6:31pm. |
Your source is known(even you avoided for obvious reasons to show it) and I don't have time to debate one to one...I will stay in this
Originally posted by Menumorut
Some of the authors are very explicit, I copy again Strabo: The Thessalians in particular wore long robes, probably because they of all the Greeks lived in the most northerly and coldest region.
|
[12] There is an ancient story of the Armenian race to this effect: that Armenus of Armenium, a Thessalian city, which lies between Pherae and Larisa on Lake Boebe, as I have already said,26 accompanied Jason into Armenia; and Cyrsilus the Pharsalian and Medius the Larisaean, who accompanied Alexander, say that Armenia was named after him, and that, of the followers of Armenus, some took up their abode in Acilisene, which in earlier times was subject to the Sopheni, whereas others took up their abode in Syspiritis, as far as Calachene and Adiabene, outside the Armenian mountains. They also say that the clothing of the Armenians is Thessalian, for example, the long tunics, which in tragedies are called Thessalian and are girded round the breast; and also the cloaks that are fastened on with clasps, another way in which the tragedians imitated the Thessalians, for the tragedians had to have some alien decoration of this kind; and since the Thessalians in particular wore long robes, probably because they of all the Greeks lived in the most northerly and coldest region, they were the most suitable objects of imitation for actors in their theatrical make-ups. And they say that their style of horsemanship is Thessalian, both theirs and alike that of the Medes. To this the expedition of Jason and the Jasonian monuments bear witness, some of which were built by the sovereigns of the country, just as the temple of Jason at Abdera was built by Parmenion.
The era that Strabo mention was before the Macedonian migration in Emathia.The era was the at the known Argonaut Campaign.You know of course in what year ? Do you?
Strabo was clear for the Macedonia
There remain of Europe, first, Macedonia and the parts of Thrace that are contiguous to it and extend as far as Byzantium; secondly, Greece; and thirdly, the islands that are close by. Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece,
[Strabo, Geography,book 7,Fragm,9]
Menumorut please next time mention and the number of the quote ..will be usefull.Thank you
Edited by akritas - 25-Oct-2006 at 14:23
|
|
|
Anton
Caliph
Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 14:33 |
Originally posted by akritas
Your source is known(even you avoided for obvious reasons to show it) and I don't have time to debate one to one...I will stay in this |
Nice tactics to avoid explanation of uncomfortable facts Sources are Strabo and others.
|
.
|
|
Anton
Caliph
Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 14:40 |
Originally posted by akritas
Strabo was clear for the Macedonia
There remain of Europe, first, Macedonia and the parts of Thrace that are contiguous to it and extend as far as Byzantium; secondly, Greece; and thirdly, the islands that are close by. Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece,
[Strabo, Geography,book 7,Fragm,9]
|
Of course it was part of Greece in the time of Strabo. Thanks to Alexander. The question is who were they before that time.
|
.
|
|
Flipper
Arch Duke
Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 14:54 |
Originally posted by Menumorut
We have the examples of populations in Minor Asia which became Greeks
by hellenization, why shouldn't happen the same with Macedonians, when
even the Northerner Thracians were completely hellenized?
|
It was the Carrians (GK. Karres)...An anatolian tribe that were considered Greeks after the 5th centrury. As for the Macedonians we do not have a record like in the case of the Carrians that they became Hellenized...Thrace was Hellenized in many regions...The coast was Ionian so I'm not talking about that, but the rest of Thrace, which even though we have evidence that they were Hellenized , they are never mentioned as Greeks (I exclude the Ionian cities). This is not the case again with Macedonia.
This is not the case with Syracusians or other sure Greeks. I think is explainable: a hellenized population is considered by earlier authors as not-Greek and by later ones as Greek.
|
Wrong! You have very few records making geographic distinctions and you have many records recognising them in the same period.
Stagira was founded in 665 by Ionian Greek colonists from Andros. How could be founded a Greek colony in Greek land? A similar history have had all the Greek cities in Chalcidice peninsula, including Olynthos.
|
Cities are founded they do not exist forever. The rest is covered by Akritas post...And in the end, add that to the Greek presence in Macedonia.
Look my theory: Macedonians were not a Greek people but Thracians or other ethnic group (maybe a mixage of Thracians and Greeks) which got almost completely hellenized untill 5th century but they preserved the conscience of their non-Greek apartnence untill Alexander. Rome was not yet a great power, the most prestigious was the Greek people and civilization so the Macedonians wished to consider themselves Greeks and to spread the Greek culture.
|
Do you have evidence that shows any connection to the Thracians? See the Thracian writtings...Greek letters but a language that is not possible to comprehend by a Greek. But YES, there were Phrygian minorities amongst the Macedonians, this is even written in some Greek books. However, we have records of quite many number of Greek migrations to Macedonia, so why should Macedonians specifically be Thracians? Shouldn't the rest of the Greeks know that? Now why would someone want to badly to consider himself Greek? There is no convincing theory. "Cause they admired the culture" is nonsence...Then what about Japanese who admire the western societies? Do they get American passports and stay in Japan?
If a people have Greek culture and language we may consider them Greeks but also we have to clarify their origin.
|
Correct...But how can you know that? The earliest findings are Mychenean. Before that we do not have any records...Besides mate, mine and yours origins if we look back 30 000 is around Caucasus and some other areas over there. If we look more back you and I came from Africa. So what??? Those people were Indoeuropeans ok, but nations are born from historical events, culture and common consciousness.
I think yes. I think the original language of Macedonians vanished earlier.
|
What do you base that thought on? Any empirical material?
The ancient authors consider the Macedonians as Greeks. |
From what I have read, I think only the late and uninformed of them considered this.
|
Try Hesiod...Just an example...
Edited by Flipper - 09-Jun-2008 at 14:55
|
Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
|
|
Flipper
Arch Duke
Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 15:02 |
Originally posted by Anton
Originally posted by akritas
Strabo was clear for the Macedonia
There remain of Europe, first, Macedonia and the parts of Thrace that are contiguous to it and extend as far as Byzantium; secondly, Greece; and thirdly, the islands that are close by. Macedonia, of course, is a part of Greece,
[Strabo, Geography,book 7,Fragm,9]
|
Of course it was part of Greece in the time of Strabo. Thanks to Alexander. The question is who were they before that time. |
Strabo again about Macedonia way back in time...(tired of repeating this)...
Strabo Geography
But over all the above mentioned it was the tribe called the Argeadae who made themselves supreme,as did the Chalcidians in Euboea. In fact, the Chalcidians in Euboea actually invaded the land of the Sithones where they jointly founded some 30 cities.
Caranus also came to Emathia with a large band of Hellenes, being insctructed by an Oracle to seek a home in Macedonia.
I don't know if that time is good for you? If you go further back then you have Macedon, son of Aeolus in Macedonia (Mychenean times). If you go way way way back you have the first Phrygian Kindom. No Macedonian Kindom...
|
Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
|
|
akritas
Chieftain
Hegemom
Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Location: Greek Macedonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1460
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 15:07 |
Thanks Flipper
Anton is better to go and read ancient Greek Gramatia (history)
|
|
|
Flipper
Arch Duke
Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 15:21 |
For those who wonder about the early inscriptions in Macedonia I got something to present. Remember we have been speaking about the Dorians...The Corinthians were Dorians as well. I also mentioned in earlier posts that the first man to be called Alexander was the 10th King of Corinth back in the 9th century BC. Now take a look on this... This is one of the earliest inscriptions we have in Macedonia. It is written in the Corynthian alphabet around the late 7th or early 6th century BC. ..ροθεμις μα.. (Latin: ..rothemis ma..) is what is left of it. Is it still a coincidence?
Edited by Flipper - 25-Oct-2006 at 15:22
|
Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
|
|
Anton
Caliph
Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 15:28 |
Originally posted by Flipper
Strabo again about Macedonia way back in time...(tired of repeating this)...
Strabo Geography
But over all the above mentioned it was the tribe called the Argeadae who made themselves supreme,as did the Chalcidians in Euboea. In fact, the Chalcidians in Euboea actually invaded the land of the Sithones where they jointly founded some 30 cities.
Caranus also came to Emathia with a large band of Hellenes, being insctructed by an Oracle to seek a home in Macedonia.
I don't know if that time is good for you? If you go further back then you have Macedon, son of Aeolus in Macedonia (Mychenean times). If you go way way way back you have the first Phrygian Kindom. No Macedonian Kindom...
|
Yeah, and the same Strabo--"The Thessalians in particular wore long robes, probably because they of all the Greeks lived in the most northerly and coldest region" [11.14.12].
|
.
|
|
Anton
Caliph
Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 15:34 |
Originally posted by Flipper
The coast was Ionian so I'm not talking about that, but the rest of Thrace, which even though we have evidence that they were Hellenized , they are never mentioned as Greeks (I exclude the Ionian cities). This is not the case again with Macedonia.
|
Sorry for the oftop, but in which exactly regions Thracians were hellenized (except obviously regions around Constantinople), when they were hellenized and what are the evidences? And why authors like Procopius, Malala and John from Lydia mentioned them in 6th AD? I ask here because actually it is difficult to prove something on the basis of anything other doubtful.
|
.
|
|
akritas
Chieftain
Hegemom
Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Location: Greek Macedonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1460
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 15:35 |
Anton my answer in Strabo quote given 3 posts earlier
and you are OFF THE TOPIC as I explained you via PM in a message that I do not deleted
Edited by akritas - 25-Oct-2006 at 15:37
|
|
|
Flipper
Arch Duke
Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 15:40 |
Originally posted by Anton
Yeah, and the same Strabo--"The Thessalians in particular wore long robes, probably because they of all the Greeks lived in the most northerly and coldest region" [11.14.12].
|
Irrelevant... Strabo again... ...After having described as much of the western parts of Europe as
is comprised within the interior and exterior seas, and surveyed all
the barbarous nations which it contains, as far as the Don and a small part of Greece, namely, Macedonia we propose to give an account of the remainder of the Helladic geography.
...but after they had intrusted to Lycurgus the formation of a political constitution, they acquired such a superiority over the other Greeks, that they alone obtained the sovereignty both by sea and land, and continued to be the chiefs of the Greeks, till the Thebans, and soon afterwards the Macedonians, deprived them of this ascendency.
With all respect Anton I believe you're out for something else here. Sofistics that bring confusion in constructive threads maybe?
Edited by Flipper - 25-Oct-2006 at 15:43
|
Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
|
|
Anton
Caliph
Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 15:47 |
Originally posted by akritas
Anton my answer in Strabo quote given 3 posts earlier
Ooops! Sorry. That sounds like an explanation indeed!
and you are OFF THE TOPIC as I explained you via PM in a message that I do not deleted
Did you mean that one where I promissed you to flame? I do not consider it as a private
|
|
.
|
|
akritas
Chieftain
Hegemom
Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Location: Greek Macedonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1460
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 15:52 |
Originally posted by Anton
Did you mean that one where I promissed you to flame? I do not consider it as a private
|
Sent by : Anton Sent : 25 October 2006 at 1:07pm
Akritas, I respect your feelings and interest in your history. Whatever they were, Macedonians are part of your history anyway. You started interesting topics where one can found many interesting information but if you not stop call Salvic Macedonians -- FYROMians I promise you to fill this interesting thread and possible others with flame war untill it is locked. If one son of as bitch behaves bad it is not a reason to offend the whole nation this guy belong to.
Yes the above PM that you threat me to trolling and spaming the specific thread in order to lock by the mods . I want to see the mods what will to do with this
Is obvious you already started
Edited by akritas - 25-Oct-2006 at 15:56
|
|
|
Menumorut
Chieftain
Joined: 02-Jun-2006
Location: Romania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1423
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 15:56 |
It was the Carrians (GK. Karres)...A Tyrhenian tribe that were considered Greeks after the 5th centrury. |
We also could mention Frygians, Lydians, Lycians, Cilicians, Galatians and other nations.
As for the Macedonians we do not have a record like in the case of the Carrians that they became Hellenized...Thrace was Hellenized in many regions...The coast was Ionian so I'm not talking about that, but the rest of Thrace, which even though we have evidence that they were Hellenized , they are never mentioned as Greeks (I exclude the Ionian cities). This is not the case again with Macedonia. |
That because Thrace was not in direct contact with the Greek regions, like Macedonia so the native culture and language was preserved later.
After hellenization, Thracians started to be called Greeks, like Macedonians after Alexander, they lost their national identity.
According to Esychius Thracians are called Ionians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Thrace
Cities are founded they do not exist forever. |
Could you give examples of Greek cities which have been founded in greek land by not-Local population?
Do you have evidence that shows any connection to the Thracians? |
The non-Greek words of late Macedonian language could be explained elseway?
See the Thracian writtings...Greek letters but a language that is not possible to comprehend by a Greek. |
Only four Thracian inscriptions have been found ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language ) but the Greek inscriptions in Thracia, before the Macedonian conquest, is great.
Now why would someone want to badly to consider himself Greek? |
Living in the closeness of Greek land and their cities considered the most civilised by all the peoples, would be inapropiate to wish to preserve and even promote your Barbarian culture, in the conception of that time.
Correct...But how can you know that? The earliest findings are Mychenean. Before that we do not have any records... |
I cann't believe the earliest findings are Mychenean, it should be stone age.
Besides mate, mine and yours origins if we look back 30 000 is around Caucasus and some other areas over there. If we look more back you and I came from Africa. So what??? Those people were Indoeuropeans ok, but nations are born from historical events, culture and common consciousness. |
So, the History is an inutile science? Not a good idea, especialy on a history forum.
What do you base that thought on? Any empirical material? |
We cann't think that Greek was the language from imemorial times. If we try answer when started Greek to be spoken there, we find these posibilities:
1.-It was spoken from Mycenian times by Greek speaking tribes, ancestors of Macedonians
2. -It was spoken from a later period, replacing the former language sometime in the centuries BC.
I think the first variant cann't be accepted because such a greta longeivty of Greek communities would lead to creation of city-states like in other Greek lands, especialy in a region like Macedonia with such contacts and posibility of comerce.
|
|
|
Flipper
Arch Duke
Joined: 23-Apr-2006
Location: Flipper HQ
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1813
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 16:02 |
@ Akritas >> Well...I don't know what I should say now. This was a discrace... @Menumorut >> I'll be back with feedback tomorow I agree on some parts but can't analyze the rest at this time of the day. Sorry for the delay...
|
Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va!
|
|
akritas
Chieftain
Hegemom
Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Location: Greek Macedonia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1460
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 16:05 |
Originally posted by Flipper
@ Akritas >> Well...I don't know what I should say now. This was a discrace...
|
Yes I know
I tried to ignore him.......but he started his "flame" war. I hope the mods do not lock this thread as Anton want for obvious reasons!!!
Edited by akritas - 25-Oct-2006 at 16:08
|
|
|
Anton
Caliph
Joined: 23-Jun-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2888
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 25-Oct-2006 at 16:28 |
I apologize for my behaviour. I promise not to flame anymore.
The only thing I would like to mention is that real disgrace is to humiliate a one million nation by calling them by nonexsistable words and what is more important to call their language Slav(e)ic :
Edited by Anton - 25-Oct-2006 at 20:44
|
.
|
|
Sharrukin
Chieftain
Joined: 04-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1314
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 26-Oct-2006 at 01:25 |
I guess I have a lot of catching up to do, but, oh well. At this point, because there is now a lot of overlap, I will only address bits of various threads, since there has been duplication of material already covered.
flipper
That was a nice point Brainstorm. Macedonia was indeed Emathia and Pieria in the beginning. However, the date you gave is when the Argeads settled the Kindom. Before that other events happened in Macedonia.
After the migration of the Phrygians to the east, other Archaic, Ionian, Cadmian and Aeolic tribes moved to Macedonia. We have the Bottiaei from Crete (Strabo Geography), we have the Chalkideans from Eubia and then we have Macedon son of Aeolus who lead a group of people (possibly from Thessaly or the Kindom of Elli in Phthiotis) to Macedonia and then comes Caranus (the first King) with a large band of Hellenes. |
According to the tradition recorded by Herodotus, which he got from the Macedonians, the Phrygians (or when they were still in Europe, the Briges) were still present when the Macedonians were there. (7.73) Hence, no migration after the others. The Macedonians were already there. The Brigian presence can be seen with many archaeological artefacts throughout Macedonia, but especially at Vergina dating from between about 1150 to 800 BC. Indeed, this "Brigian dominance" seemed to have been widespread, having even conquered into southern Epirus, based on the archaeological evidence. According to legend, Odysseus, after his return to Ithaca, was defeated by the Brigians when he tried to aid the Thesprotians. If the Macedonian story is true, then they were already present since before 800 BC.
Strabo, Geography
"This land was inhabited by some Epirotans and Illyrian people, but mostly by the Bottiaei and the Thracians, the former being purportedly Cretans and having Botton as their leader."
"But over all the above mentioned it was the tribe called the Argeadae who made themselves supreme,as did the Chalcidians in Euboea. In fact, the Chalcidians in Euboea actually invaded the land of the Sithones where they jointly founded some 30 cities."
"Caranus also came to Emathia with a large band of Hellenes, being insctructed by an Oracle to seek a home in Macedonia. "
|
I've already dealt with the "Caranus tradition" in other postings. However, where is this Caranus passage in Strabo?
"Macedonia is ofcourse also a part of Hellas". |
Yes, in the time of Strabo (1st century AD) this is so, but, Strabo also says that Macedonia "is held by the barbarians" (7.7.1; cf. 8.1.1)
The existence of a Mychenean culture in Macedonia shows clearly that Archaic tribes settled there in the late bronse age. Here is some info about the artifacts. This is a typical example used by Hammond in "History of Macedonia" Volume 1.
"West of Agios Dimitrios at a 1.100 meters height and a place called Xirolakas a Mycenaean cementary from 1200 BC was discovered. This finding in the northwestern part of Olympus is of significant importance for the history of Macedonia, since it is the first time the presence of a Mycenaean civilization is discovered in the area of Macedonia.
This finding gives life to the theories that the Macedonian dynasty has it roots in the Mycenaean tradition, says the archeologist Efi Poulaki. It is a proof of the close relations the Macedonians had with the southern tribes of Greece in the early years. The tombs have always been the the most important archeological evidence for the Ancient Macedonians. Before these excavations, some scientists believed that the Myceneaen civilization did not reach above Olympus. With those findings this theory is now rejected and give new dimentions to the history of the Macedonians. The tombs that are over 24 , are box-formed with rectangular plates and have according to the Myceneaen habits more than two bodies. The ceilings are stamped for waterproof with a thick layer of clay. A sword of type Σ (Sigma) with an ivory handhold was rescued as well as the remains of its wooden sheath, a cupreous peak of wooden spear, necklaces of women made by glassmass and stone seals. The vessels are mainly chrismals. The necklaces made from tree glue in their number and quality are very important. The findings of 23 stone seals are very important according to archeologists. The character of seals of Olympus is always abstract with stereotyped forms or linear subjects. They belong in the group of magic seals and were worn in the breast as amulets. The sought aim of magic depended from the type of stone, but also from its form, as well as from the symbolic seal that it portrayed. The seals are connected with the Orpheus, a magic musician and a mythical character that imported the deamons and marked the antiquity. The cemetery of late bronse age proves that the current passages of Olympus existed as traditional paths for the residents of region 3000 years ago. " |
The present consensus is that Macedonia was not Mycenaean. While it is true that Mycenaean artefacts have been found there, the literature generally describes it as either being "imports" or "imitation". Taking all of the artefacts into consideration we have instead a Macedonia which borrowed from all the surrounding cultures. The following quotes will suffice:
"Neither Macedonia or Epirus in the west were ever part of the Mycenaean Greece".
K.A. Wardle "Mycenaean Trade and Influence in Northern Greece," Wace and Blegen, Pottery as Evidence for Trade in the Aegean Bronze Age: 1939-1989, Zerner, Zerner, and Winder, editors, page 117.
".....Macedonia was never part of the Mycenaean koine. Indeed, one has to admit that, despite evidence of contact and exchange with neighboring areas to the north and south. Macedonia, in the Bronze Age, has a character and identity of its own."
A. Cambitoglu and J.K. Papadopolous, "The Earliest Mycenaeans in Macedonia", (same volume), page 289.
|
|