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Northeast European Tribe, Scythian

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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Northeast European Tribe, Scythian
    Posted: 18-May-2008 at 13:07
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Simply because Slavs have been there for centuries and may have found that city (in fact they are "official founders" of Uryupinsk), unlike Spanish or Chinese.

Turks, Tatars, Cossacks, Russians, Slovaks, ... Which one? Of course I know it doesn't matter, you just want to be opposed to this very valid Iranian theory.



Nonsense! Slovaks never lived anywhere in Russia.
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-May-2008 at 13:12
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Looks like you have very strange ideas about the geography and particlary where are the geographical boundaries of Caucasus. I suggest you to check any book on geography of Caucasus before claiming smth like this.

Caucasus is not a country with specified boundaries, as I said the region between the Black and Caspian seas is called "Caucasus" and Volgograd is in this region.



The Caucasus is one of the most linguistically and culturally diverse regions on Earth. The nation-states that compose the Caucasus today are the post-Soviet states Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan southwestern Russia. The Russian divisions include Krasnodar Krai, Stavropol Krai, and the autonomous republics of Adygea, Kalmykia, Karachay-Cherkessia, Kabardino-Balkaria, North Ossetia, Ingushetia, Chechnya, and Dagestan. Three territories in the region claim independence but are not acknowledged as nation-states by the international community: Abkhazia, Nagorno-Karabakh and South Ossetia.

Volgograd Oblast is not. There are many oblasti as you can see, but Volgograd not;)
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  Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2008 at 05:34
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri


They still exist, the Urus (Russians)


Comes from ruotsi, the name given to Swedes by Finns, not from urus.


"Ruot" (fi) = Root (eng)

"Ruotsi" = Root-language (Western Scandinavian; Danish/Norwegian/Swedish)

---

"Ruotsinkielli" is the Finnish name on the language spoken by the "Hurri" (Scandinavian-speaking Finns) and the "Ruotsinlainen" (Swedes/Scandianvians). This "root-language" is still spoken in Scandinavia.

Present linguistic models explains that the PRESENT Finnish and Scandinavian langauges are DIRECT branches from the original (proto) "IE" language - arriving to the northern hemisphere with the mesolittic settlers that populated the Eurasian arctic 10.000 years ago.

Analyzing the semantic implications of  IE words and names we may benefit greatly by comparing the cosmology and logic found in the basic elements of the Swedo-Finnish accents of the Scandianvian tounge.

Urus;

"Ur" = Origin (source)
"Us" = Mounth (river-mounth,well)

---

"Au" = River/Stream
"Ra" = Reign; Ra/Re/Rek/Rex/Rig/Rik, as in Norse "Erik" and "Ers"...
"Ro" = Ease/Calm
"Pa" = Pole

Au-Pa
Au-Ro-Pa

---

Ap-ro-po's;

Au-Ra       = Aura
Au-Ro-Ra  = (Heavenly) Ligth

---

"Bo" = Livelyhood/Nest
"Re" = Reign
"Al" = All
"Is" = Ice


In the south "Bo-Re-Al-Is" came to mean "Northern". Thus "Aurora Borealis" came to explain "The Heavenly Ligth of the Arctic", today paraphrased  as "The Northern Ligths".

Thus an old name as "Aurora Borealis" tells quite a few things about what and where it is - as well as that somebody already live and reign there...!

Cheers

Comparing the language of Firdausi, Thales, Herodot, Plato and Jordanes may be very revealing as they all refer the old connections between the old cultures of the Mediterranean antiquity - such as the Libyan/Roman, Egyptian/Greek and Perisan/Scyths.

Even the northern Goths and Celts are repported to have strings attached to the old cultures of Greece, Anatolia and Persia.

From the bronze-age onwards we know that "Perse-gar'd" (and later "Perselpolis") becme capitols of the culture and the population called "Persian".  Their northern neighbours  were already then the culture and population known as "The Scythians". Since mesolithic times this culture already populated the enormous area between Scandinavia and Persia known as "Great Russia"...

Present archaeology explains that the trade of old Persia went out the Gulf and south - as well as to the amber and other treasures that were only fond in the Baltic Ocean. That means that the Persian trade with the Baltics went through the major river-systems of the Scytian kingdom - all the way up to Baltic shores. Obviously the Persian and the Schytian have a long history in common...!







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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2008 at 10:32
That's the first time I've heard it suggested that the Finnish language is Indo-European.
 
I guess you live and learn Smile
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  Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2008 at 02:45
Originally posted by gcle2003

That's the first time I've heard it suggested that the Finnish language is Indo-European.
 
I guess you live and learn Smile


There was a modern myth made in the beginning of last century explaining that that  the  Finns and their laguage originated in "Northeast Asia" - and thus had "Mongol origin".
The immediate difference between the Scandianvian and the Finish tongues respectively, SEEM to be a strong support for this assumption - which have led historians to ASSUME that Finns and Russians had other "roots" than the Scandianvians.

Over the past decade modern genetics have established that the Finns originate from the very same "branch" of modern man as do the "central and western Euopeans". That does imply that this major differentiation of the Eurasian language-group still can be spotted -along the language-border that separate the Fenno/Slavic populations of eastern Europe from the western language-groups of Goths, Celts and Germans...

The recent results from Scandinavian and Finnish DNA clearly shows that the strong diffrentation between this two language-groups is a result of "cultural differences" rather than "genetic".

That fact alone seem to place the Finns WITHIN the Indo-European family of languages - since "Proto-Feno-Ugrian" and "Proto-German" both seem to have co-existed among the pioneers that populated Eurasia imediatly after ice-time. Which again implies that a good number of Finnish and Swedish traders were bi-lingual already during Mesolithic time...!

Still today there is no language-branch closer to the Finns than the "Indo-Eurpean". When the Goths and Celts spread in the west, the Feno-Ugrian Scyts populated central Eurasia.

All the three major groups of the northern neolithics develped close contacts to ancient Greece and Persia. After times of warfare and turmoil the Guti and the Saka even appeared south of their natural bordes - to re-establish agriculture as well as culture - in Anataolia and Greece major.









Edited by Boreasi - 21-May-2008 at 03:01
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2008 at 11:27
Originally posted by Boreasi

Originally posted by gcle2003

That's the first time I've heard it suggested that the Finnish language is Indo-European.
 
I guess you live and learn Smile


There was a modern myth made in the beginning of last century explaining that that  the  Finns and their laguage originated in "Northeast Asia" - and thus had "Mongol origin".
I never heard of that either. All my books, in particular the Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language, refer to Finnish as a member of the Uralic group (Finno-Ugric subgroup, then Baltic-Finnic) along with Hungarian, Estonian, Lapp and a few other minor groups. Nothing to do with Mongols at all - Mongolian belongs to the Altaic group.
 
None of this has anything whatsoever to do with race or genetics. So your arguments from genetics and DNA are irrelevant.

The immediate difference between the Scandianvian and the Finish tongues respectively, SEEM to be a strong support for this assumption - which have led historians to ASSUME that Finns and Russians had other "roots" than the Scandianvians.
Similarities between languages indicate nothing about similar genetic origins or racial relationships. West Indians speak the same language (allowing for dialectical differences) as I do, but we have very different racial backgrounds.

Over the past decade modern genetics have established that the Finns originate from the very same "branch" of modern man as do the "central and western Euopeans". That does imply that this major differentiation of the Eurasian language-group still can be spotted -along the language-border that separate the Fenno/Slavic populations of eastern Europe from the western language-groups of Goths, Celts and Germans...

The recent results from Scandinavian and Finnish DNA clearly shows that the strong diffrentation between this two language-groups is a result of "cultural differences" rather than "genetic".
Of course. But that doesn't mean the Scandinavian and Finnish languages are related.

That fact alone seem to place the Finns WITHIN the Indo-European family of languages - since "Proto-Feno-Ugrian" and "Proto-German" both seem to have co-existed among the pioneers that populated Eurasia imediatly after ice-time. Which again implies that a good number of Finnish and Swedish traders were bi-lingual already during Mesolithic time...!
It doesn't mean bilingual, merely that they could understand one another. Why is that surprising? People all over the world learn to understand and communicate with their neighbours.

Still today there is no language-branch closer to the Finns than the "Indo-Eurpean".
Well according to the sources I've been reading all my life, Estonian is. The actual breakdown of the various Uralic languages is subject to disagreement, but not over whether Finnish is Indo-European.
Wikipedia covers the subject well enough but start at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages
 
 
 
When the Goths and Celts spread in the west, the Feno-Ugrian Scyts populated central Eurasia.
Now the Finns are Scythians? Give me strength!







[/QUOTE]


Edited by gcle2003 - 21-May-2008 at 11:29
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2008 at 12:06
Everyone is Scythian...
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2008 at 12:07
Everyone is Scythian...I just wonder why we all speak different languages.
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  Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-May-2008 at 04:04
When the Goths and Celts spread in the west, the Feno-Ugrian Scyts populated central Eurasia.

Now the Finns are Scythians? Give me strength!


Sorry - but the present Finns are still keeping their original lineages of genetic and language, both. The root of their origin is determined to the early mesolihic. Consequently they were present alreay when the first Schytians spread along the southern hemisphere of Eurasia, down to the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea.

The results from both megalithic and neolitic  sites throughout Europe and  Eurasia we  already know that there was two major  cultures  populating the northern hemisphere; one eastern  and one western.

Traces of the "eastern culture" can be found from Poland to east of Ural. At that time they were ALL spaking various dialects of Fenno-Ugrian. Or "Uralian" if you may. Hungary as well as Estonia were natural parts of that cultural, linguistical and etnical collective - that during history have developed in various directions - due to different destinies of history.

Cnsequently we have to count the so-called "Scytians" into the Fenno-Ugrian cultures - since the population called "Scytians" (by their southern neighbours) actually came from the area known to have been populated by the  origin of the  "Fenno-Ugrian" culture.  Thus you may get some strength from enhancing your understanding of how the present Finns - and their Fenno-Ugrian nephews - can be the closest you ever get  to  a "Scytian".

---

Still the question arises; where did the first populus come from - that brancehd out after ice-time, to populate the "arctic/sub-arctic belt" of  Russia, Belo-Russia, Ucraine, Georgia and northern Caucasia - all the way east to Tarim...?!

Would not "somewhere in Scytia" be the plausible origin of the "Fenno-Ugric" peoples as well as their "Uralian" languages?!




Edited by Boreasi - 17-Jul-2008 at 02:55
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2008 at 12:04
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

In the Persian language there is a "K" between "U" and "R", so we have Ukra (Arabic Uqab & Aqrab come from this word) similar to Latin Aquila, French Aigle and English Eagle. (Comapre to Ukraine & Ugrians/Hungrians)



Cyrus, no offence but you know exactly nothing about Slavic languages so I advise you to do some studies before you tell us to compare to Ukraine. Just like 'Slav' is English, so is 'Ukraine' - it is really advisable that you look up the native names...the English names always account for nothing.

So about Ukraine - it has nothing to do with eagles. It literally means 'borderland' (Slavic 'u-' meaning 'by' and 'kraj'/'krajina' meaning 'region'/'country' respectively).

About Hungary: it's a very well known derivation of Turkic on-oghur meaning 'ten arrows' (idiom. ten tribes) and the H-letter is a later addition. I'm surprised you don't know about it.

I didn't know the etymology of Ural, but I was able to find information that it comes from a tribe called Ural of Turkic origin ('stone belt' afaik).


Edited by Slayertplsko - 11-Jul-2008 at 12:06
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  Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2008 at 00:35
Regarding Fenno-Ugrians, "Uralians", Schytians and "Sakas";

Haplogroup N3:

"N3 (Tat (M46)) Typical of the Sakha and Uralic peoples, with a moderate distribution throughout North Eurasia".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K_%28Y-DNA%29



Edited by Boreasi - 19-Jul-2008 at 00:36
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  Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2008 at 01:01
Ucraine/Ukraina/Ugra-aina

1. U/O often represents "Origin"/"Origo"
2. Gra/Kra has to do with breeding/growing.
3. ina/aina relates to "area"/"one(-ness)"

Mark also names like "A-gra"/"A-kra", as well as the prefixes "A-kro", "A-gri" and "A-gro". Then note the paralell to "U-gra"/"U-kra" as well as "U-gri"...

U-kra-(a)ine seems to imply "origin" as well as "fertility"/"breeding", "fields" (agri-) and "townships" (-culture). 

Not to mention that "UR" means "First Origin" - and "AL" still means "all". Thus the agriculturalists between the Caspian and the Danube seem to have anaticipated themselve to be the "spreading branches" ("descedants") of a "genuine root" ("THE ancestor?!").

Bis Wieder


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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2008 at 03:01
Slayertplsko is absolutely correct. Ukraine means "border (land)"  "Ukraina" basically means "at the edge" "at the outer border". "Krai" means the edge.
 
The origin of the name comes to the times of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. The lands of the Ukraine formed the extreme eastern edge/border of this state and literally were called the "lands at the edge." What was beyond there was considered already something wild, barbaric and Asiatic (for Poles). Smile
 
So, the attempts to construe some artificial ethimologies for the word Ukraine are just funny for a native speaker of Slavic languages. Smile
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  Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2008 at 03:03
How old are the slavonic languages?!  Stern%20Smile


Edited by Boreasi - 21-Jul-2008 at 03:06
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2008 at 04:57
According to the most popular theories Proto-Balto-Slavic language separated from Indoeuropean family about 3000 BC, Proto-Slavic and Proto Baltic languages separated around 1500-1000 BC, Proto Slavic separated into different Slavonic dialects around 6-7 centuries AD.

Edited by Sarmat12 - 21-Jul-2008 at 05:02
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  Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jul-2008 at 19:56
Originally posted by Sarmat12

According to the most popular theories Proto-Balto-Slavic language separated from Indoeuropean family about 3000 BC, Proto-Slavic and Proto Baltic languages separated around 1500-1000 BC, Proto Slavic separated into different Slavonic dialects around 6-7 centuries AD.


Accoring to the Paleolithic Continuation Theory the IE languages all derive from a proto-IE that was developed already before the end of ice-time. Well before the spread of agriculture, one may add.

The same theory tells that the Scandinavian and the Finnish languages, respectively, are the two oldest remaining branches of that "proto-European" language.

Consequently we may find "Scandinavian" elements in the Fenno-Ugrian languages - AND vice verca. Which we do.

With that in mind we may relate how the Scandinavian root-words assosiate with the various words of Fenno-Ugrian, "Baltic", Slavonic and Greek.

1000 years ago the western tongues (Scandinavian, Anglic, Saxon) used to call the city "Könu-gard" (= "King-yard/manor").  In the same root-language "Kiev" will associate with "Ki-e-van", where "Van" reflects a populus called "Van", similar to "Ven"/"Vene"/"Vends".

An intrigueging paralell is found in Asov, where "As" reflects the people called "Aser" and "-ov" is short for "hov", - the Norse word for "holy house" or "temple". Thus the name "Asov" directly reflect to the "Temple-of-Aser". 

No theory needed. The Scandianvian and the Fenno-Ugrian tougues still exist - with this basic information still consistent, within their vocabulary. Knowing them these elaborations become plain, simple and outrigth.  

Since the Latin and the Greek started to spread northwards the (northern) cultures that were conquered came to change their language into a combination of their original tongues and the language of the new rulers.

Thus we got French and modern German before they combined into English. In the eastern sector where the greek-othodox took power we got combinations, between the "Greek"/"Grylic" chuch-language and the old "Fenno-ugrian" (also called "Baltic" and/or "Uralian"). That developed into various lingua, such as Magyar, Grylic or Slavonic.

Though, - they all reflect on the same basic sounds that once sustantiated the proto-eurasian lingua. Thus the major languages of Eurasia still bears a reflection of this common ground.

Best regards


Edited by Boreasi - 22-Jul-2008 at 20:15
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  Quote Boreasi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2008 at 04:35
< ="-" ="text/; =utf-8">< name="ProgId" ="Word.">< name="Generator" ="Microsoft Word 11">< name="Originator" ="Microsoft Word 11">

Once upon the time, says modern archaology, the European population north of the Alps retreated to the southeast and southwest due to the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) which has been dated around 18.000-22.000 BP. This created an Eastern and a Western Block.

The Western Block represented the Magdalenian cultures which repopulated the depopulated territories around 14.500-15.000 BP. The Hamburg and the Ertebolle cultures appears to be off-springs of the Magdalenians - started to spread around 13.000 BP - populating an area which includes what is today Poland, northern Germany, Denmark, Southern Sweden and SW Norway - as well as Britain and the isles of the North Sea.
 
The Eastern Block represented much of the widespread Gravettian techno-complex, covering eastern Poland, Belo-Russia, the Baltics, NW Russia and Finland.

Aving a common origin these blocks have kept a normal relationship-of-neighbourhood to each other, as ''people from each groups have left traces of each others genetic, cultural and lingistic characteristics in each others areas and population. Intermerriages may well have happend, although to limited extent.
 
The Mesolithic period brougth the initial colonization of the Scandia Peninsula around 10.300-10.000 BP - and during the mext millennia also the Baltic, Northern Russia and Finland was populated. Today we migth understand that the Russia and the Baltics were not colonized from "the east", but rather from the southern Baltics.

The Lyalovo or Pitted Ware-style seems to be the culture that evolving to Combed Ware - as it encompasses northern Noray, northern Sweden, the Gulf of Bothnia, the White Sea and the Baltic - extending eastward to the Urals. Of course, there were several cultures that appear to have intersected with it, putting their own unique stamp on the various regions - but a commoness of cutural exession is evident in the archeological material.

It appears unlikely that a Ahrensbergian influence in western Russia at the end of the Paleolithic would have sparked Uralic development, although it have left a substantial amount substrate elements, which today is recognised as a massive amount of "IE loan-words" in the Fenno-Ugrian languages.

Today experts discusses if the Proto-IE in relation to the old tongues of the Tocharian, Anatolian and north European. The Pit Grave culture is considered as a central group for late Proto-IE, while the Khvalynsk culture is considered to possibly possess the language that was the immediate predecessor of the proto-IE. Conteporary researh shows that the Uralian languages actually share more than 1/3 of the basic vocabulary of the old IE-descendants of NW Europe, which clearly implies that the Uralic and the IE lanuages share a common origin.

Much later the waves of war, migraton and religious dominance led to a latinification of the North-European area, and a paralell "byzantification" of the eastern block. Thus the uralian-speaking Schytians became "byzantified", as the linguistical and cultural monopoly of he church was established throughout south-eastern Europe and Russia. Since the victorious conquests of the eastern church, between 950 and 1050; Ucraine, Belo-Rusia and Russia have learnt to speak "Grylic".

But before the great takeover of Istanbul - from 987 - it used to be "Fenno-Ugrian". Thus we may say that the old Schytian populations actually spoke Fenno-Ugrian - as their mother's tongues...  



Edited by Boreasi - 16-Sep-2008 at 04:49
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  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2008 at 08:13
Yes, I think this theory is correct and since Cyrus has already proved that Saxons=Scytians=Iranians, all of those naturally are Fenno-Ugrians.
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  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2008 at 09:50
Yeah and actually if you think about it, Noreg - sorry Boreasi doesn't bother to look up the native names, so I'll have to stay with Norway -  in fact comes from a Slavic root 'nor-' which has to do with diving and another Slavic root 'vej-', which has to do with blowing. So Norwegians are a nations of diver which gets blown away.LOL

Also, the name of one of the major cities of the country of Blown-Away Divers - Stavanger - is interesting, since it comes from another Slavic root of (surprise?) 'stavati' and -anger is short for hangar. It is not well known that the city was called differently before WW2, but the name had to change because this was the place where the world record for the biggest amount of hangars built was broken. Therefore, the city literally translates as 'hangar-builder's'.

Oslo of course, must have been one of the leading ass farms (ass - animal, not asshole) in the early middle ages. The proof for this is its etymology, since Oslo comes from again Slavic (this can't be coincidence!!!) word 'osol' (ass). Also, if you look at the regional pronunciation, these folk around the Ass Farm tend to lisp a lot and they palatalise the alveolar fricative very often. I think they are immigrants from eastern Slovakia inasmuch as they share this feature. And another interesting thing is the grave accent. I'm convinced it first appeared in this particular word and then spread to other words of Norwegian, Swedish etc.

Hey buddy, where do you live??
 - I ushlu.
WHAT?? ushlay??
 - NEEEEI!!! ushLU!!

So a simple inability to understand the name of the city led its inhabitants to the use of grave accent.

Yeah Boreasi, alternative etymologies rule!! And you're gonna become one of the world's leading etymologists my dear friend.Clap

I needn't explain why were you etymologies (Kiev and the others) so nonsensical, need I?? I hope not...





Edited by Slayertplsko - 16-Sep-2008 at 10:03
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2008 at 10:00
1000 years ago the western tongues (Scandinavian, Anglic, Saxon) used to call the city "Könu-gard" (= "King-yard/manor").  In the same root-language "Kiev" will associate with "Ki-e-van", where "Van" reflects a populus called "Van", similar to "Ven"/"Vene"/"Vends".
We had discussed about it in another thread, you know what "Kian" means in the Modern Persian: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=kian-means&aq=f&oq=
 
As you read here, Persian "Kian" or "Kiun" comes from the Avestan kavi (or kauui) "king", the Scythian word could be "Kievi".

I think there are two famous Persian suffixes, one of them is "-istan" or "-stan" (land of) such as in Afghanistan, Kazakistan, Hayastan (Armenia in Armenian language) , ... and another one is "-gerd" or "-gard" (built by or city of) such as Susangerd, Darabgerd, Dastgerd, ...
 
This thread is about these suffixes: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=265&PN=1 
 
For example lets read what "Rava" said there:
 
Originally posted by Rava

In the old Polish stan meant government, country (in political term), also social class. There are some old cities like Bia?ogard and Starogard in Poland bearing suffics -gard remaining an old iranian topoformant. Interesting, -gard varies from usual Polish form -gr󤮼/P>

In "To the Questions of Origin of the Name Hashimgird" S. Kamoliddin wrote:

"The forming word -gird (with the variants -gard, -kard, -kird, -kirt, -jird) has been belonged to before Islamic toponymic layer of the Western Iranian circle of place names, and was widespread on the territory of Iran and Transcaucasia as in ancient times, as in early medieval ages. On the territory of Central Asia it has been brought and spread mainly in the Southern regions of Central Asia - Northern Khorasan and Tokharistan."

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