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Is Germanic a subgroup of the Iranian languages?
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    Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 11:13
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

You said "kh - voiced x (often transcribed gh)...'x' is voiceless velar fricative, and it says voiced, so..."


The link says: 'gh' (in English, not Avestan!) was pronounced as 'ch' in Scottish 'loch' - and that's voiceless velar fricative.
In fact 'gh' in English spelling is usually not pronounced at all ('ought', 'high', 'daughter') or pronounced 'f' ('laugh', 'rough', 'tough'). English English does not have velar fricatives, voiced or voiceless (though Scots and Irish Englishes do).
 
We're suffering here from lack of a standard phonetic system. 
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jun-2008 at 11:26
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

You said "kh - voiced x (often transcribed gh)...'x' is voiceless velar fricative, and it says voiced, so..."


The link says: 'gh' (in English, not Avestan!) was pronounced as 'ch' in Scottish 'loch' - and that's voiceless velar fricative.

The source about Avestan says that voiced velar fricative is often transcribed as 'gh'. And as you know, I was talking about the voiced one.

The voiceless velar fricative is transcribed differently in each language! Slavic use 'ch' or 'h', Celtic use 'ch', some use 'kh', Spanish used once 'x' (Mexico) and now uses 'j' and so on. And it's still the same sound.
Irish also has the voiced velar fricative, which is spelt either 'dh' or 'gh' (h being considered not a letter in Irish, but more like the Russian soft sign - an operator). However 'dh' and 'gh' are sometimes (between soft vowels) pronounced as an English 'y'. What I really like about Irish is that 'fh' is not pronounced at all, but is always silent.
 
Fun, isn't it?
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 09:37
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

The fact is that you can find all Avestan Consonants in the Germanic "own" words, you say some modern Germanic languages lack some sounds, what does it prove? Isn't it obvious that they have lost those sounds?


No it isn't. And no, they haven't lost those sounds, they never had them before, some languages developed some of those sounds later. Firstly, no linguistic evidence points towards your nonsense. Secondly, the Persians were far away from Germanic people (or English), so there is no way how they could have influenced Germanic peoples (the same about Avestan language). Thirdly, those are not loan words, those are words/compounds from PIE language. Avestan or Germanic did not create them, they just 'modified' the old PIE words.

And about that English - sure it's a Germanic language. But you were no longer proposing what the topic here is. You were trying to get back to the Saxon-Scythian rubbish.


Edited by Slayertplsko - 17-Jun-2008 at 09:40
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 09:39
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Is Dutch a Germanic language or not?


What do you mean by Dutch now?? Please clarify what you're talking about.
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 13:10
I've got one more question, which I wanted ask you a few days ago but somehow forgot to do so, so here it is:

What is your source for this??

"a" before a vowel is spelled "h", so aota=hota & aurvant=hurvant
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 13:13
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

The fact is that you can find all Avestan Consonants in the Germanic "own" words


No you can't. And additionally, you can find a few that Avestan lacks.




Edited by Slayertplsko - 17-Jun-2008 at 13:14
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 13:29
Originally posted by Slayertplsko

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Is Dutch a Germanic language or not?


What do you mean by Dutch now?? Please clarify what you're talking about.
You know I'm talking about "voiced velar fricative", Dutch has certainly this sound (such "g" in gaan "to go")
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 13:35
Yes I wanted to be sure that you're not talking about the voiceless counter part. Sure, it has it. So what?? It developed later, probably during the course of Middle Dutch - it wasn't present in Old Low Franconian or Old Dutch.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 13:45
How do you know that?
 
O.E. gan "to go," from W.Gmc. *gai-/*gæ- (cf. O.Fris. gan, M.Du. gaen, Ger. gehen), from PIE *ghei-
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 14:01
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

How do you know that?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_dutch#Sound_developments

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altniederfraenkisch-neuhochdeutscheswoerterbuch/VorwortAltniederfraenkisch.pdf


You still owe me your answer to my question.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 14:06
What your links say about "voiced velar fricative"? I just found it about the Old Dutch: "g was most likely a fricative /ɣ/, much like in modern Dutch."
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 14:22
Aha. I didn't mark this in Old Dutch, sorry. Nevertheless, Old Low Franconian didn't have it according to Koebler.

Don't forget about your answer.


Edited by Slayertplsko - 17-Jun-2008 at 14:31
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 14:51

Dutch is unique in having it among Germanic languages, isn't it? And it's not in the Romance languages.

Maybe they caught it fraternising with the Atrobates or someone, since it's in Celtic.
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 17-Jun-2008 at 14:51
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 14:54
It is called "intervocalic h", I'm searching about it to find a good article: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=intervocalic-h+iranian
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 15:05
There are some good articles in JStor, we know that Aura-Mazda in Old Persian was pronounced as Hormazd in Middle Persian, it is very obvious that there was a "h" sound in "Aura".
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 15:09
Why don't you copy them here then?
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Posts: 7035 		  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 15:32
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

There are some good articles in JStor, we know that Aura-Mazda in Old Persian was pronounced as Hormazd in Middle Persian, it is very obvious that there was a "h" sound in "Aura".
 
So why did it go the other way around in English, with the 'h' being dropped? Or aven't you eard?
 
Parrot of course also drops it as well as introducing some other interesting shifts - "oo's a priddy boy den?"
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 17-Jun-2008 at 15:33
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 15:37
Originally posted by gcle2003

Dutch is unique in having it among Germanic languages, isn't it? And it's not in the Romance languages.

Maybe they caught it fraternising with the Atrobates or someone, since it's in Celtic.
 
English is unique in having "ch" sound, Dutch is unique in having "gh" sound, German is unique in having "kh" sound, may I ask why all these unique languages are considered Germanic?
 
Is it important for you that the PIE root of "go" was *ghei-?
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Posts: 2810 		  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 15:42
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Originally posted by gcle2003

Dutch is unique in having it among Germanic languages, isn't it? And it's not in the Romance languages.

Maybe they caught it fraternising with the Atrobates or someone, since it's in Celtic.
 
English is unique in having "ch" sound, Dutch is unique in having "gh" sound, German is unique in having "kh" sound, may I ask why all these unique languages are considered Germanic?
 
Is it important for you that the PIE root of "go" was *ghei-?

Swedish have developed three separate guttural sounds during the last 4-500 years. It's far from a unique phenomena.
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jun-2008 at 18:08
Avestan is unique in having the bilabial fricatives...can you tell me why it is considered Iranian?! Kurdish has the voiceless pharyngeal fricative, voiceless palatal fricative, and some interesting lateral sound and a labiodental approximant. Pashto has a few retroflex consonants. Why are they considered Iranian??

English is unique in having "ch" sound

No it isn't. It is also found in High German, but mostly in loan words. And also Faroese, but I don't know to what extent it is used.


Dutch is unique in having "gh" sound


Icelandic has it as well, since the Old Norse language developed it. It doesn't seem to be used much though. Ulrich von hutten would know more...I PM-ed him and he says it's not common ('g' is mostly pronounced hard like English 'gardener').



German is unique in having "kh" sound


Nope. Also Dutch, Icelandic, some English varieties, Low German and West Frisian.


Edited by Slayertplsko - 17-Jun-2008 at 18:50
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