Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Muslim Albanians?

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 9>
Author
St. Francis of Assisi View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 05-Jan-2006
Location: Vatican City State
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 105
  Quote St. Francis of Assisi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Muslim Albanians?
    Posted: 16-Mar-2006 at 22:01
For some reason, it is a widely accepted "fact" that Albanians are Muslims. I live in Italy, and have several Albanian friends, and have asked them about religion in their country.

They told me that if anything the country is primarily atheistic or agnostic -by an overhwelming majority, and that beyond that are the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches, followed by the Muslims. Yet, Kosovars are described as "Muslims", and as are Albanians. Moreover, Albania is said to be 70% Muslim according to the CIA World Factbook.

I asked my friends why this was. They said that if we take a look at any survey of Albanian religion, we'd see that in the margin it says the survey is using information from before 1939! Albania was only liberated from Ottoman rule in 1918, when everyone was considered to be Muslim, or else they would face heavy taxation. Certainly, no poll was conducted in the 1920s, when Albania was in disorder, and in the 1930s the Italians used statistics from the Ottomans.

So why are Albanians often identified with Islam, and why don't they conduct another poll?

Albania is surrounded by Serbian Orthodox and Greek Orthodox countries. Any "Christian" Albanians would most likely be Orthodox. If they are Orthodox, then the Greeks and Serbs claim that they are then Greeks or Serbs -something that is as logical as saying that every Roman Catholic is Roman. The Albanian Orthodox church often relies on the Greek Orthodox, which has been used by Greek nationalists to say that Albanians are Orthodox, and by association Greek -ridiculous. Catholicism is only starting to be spread in the country, so the only choice for many Albanians is Islam -it is not a religious issue, but a nationalistic one, so as to differentiate between Albanians and their neighbors.

But why don't Albanians take another poll? There are about 500,000-750,000 Albanians in Greece, many of whom have changed their names from Albanian names to Greek names to acquire citizenship. They "count" as Greeks. If another poll were to be taken, the families of these people would be counted as "Greeks" in Albania -though they are not, and the Greek minority of some 50,000 would suddenly figure as roughly a third of the country. And that's really the only thing Greece needs to wrongfully annex Southern Albania.

I thought I might share this, as I find it fascinating.
Cheers, and Good Mental Health,
Herr Saltzman
Back to Top
krios View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 19-Jan-2006
Location: Slovenia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
  Quote krios Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 04:08
they are mostly muslim ... but sure there are christians too ... cia facts are right .... 
Back to Top
Leonidas View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 01-Oct-2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4613
  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 06:14
In the balkans your religion helped define you ethnos. So any greek orthodoxperson is greek to some respect, ive worked with greek orthodox lebanese and we are still brothers to some degree. If i become a believer in the frankish church in rome then i lose some of my greekness. I do agree that the choice of islam, can be helped as a point of differenation, which goes back to my first sentance.

Ive heard many do convert in greece.
Back to Top
OSMANLI View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 24-Nov-2004
Location: North Cyprus
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 740
  Quote OSMANLI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 11:25

The majority of Albanian's are Muslim. There is also a significant Christian community. Your freinds are right in the sence that a lot of Albanian's (both Muslim's and Christian's) are not practising. However there are minorities from both sides that practice their faith.

Kosova unlike Albania is virtually all Muslim.

"Albania is surrounded by Serbian Orthodox and Greek Orthodox countries. Any "Christian" Albanians would most likely be Orthodox. If they are Orthodox, then the Greeks and Serbs claim that they are then Greeks or Serbs -something that is as logical as saying that every Roman Catholic is Roman. The Albanian Orthodox church often relies on the Greek Orthodox, which has been used by Greek nationalists to say that Albanians are Orthodox, and by association Greek -ridiculous. Catholicism is only starting to be spread in the country, so the only choice for many Albanians is Islam -it is not a religious issue, but a nationalistic one, so as to differentiate between Albanians and their neighbors."

Greeks as a whole for some reason see the faith and ethinicty as being one and the same. This thought is often promoted by their priests, so you are right abou that point. However, i disagree about the point that Islam is being used as a national identity, since if one looks at history the original converts to Islam's decedents are still Muslim. So the is no grand conversion to enforce a scence of nationalistic identity.

Back to Top
xristar View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar

Joined: 05-Nov-2005
Location: Greece
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1028
  Quote xristar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 11:40

Not all greek orthodox Albanians are considered Greek. However, most of the Greek orthodox Albanians are Greeks.

The Greek minority in Albania is much bigger than 50,000. Albania tries systematically to decrease the number with many means. The true number of Greeks in Albania is around 400,000.

It is true as I know from my personal experience, that Albanians don't have really strong religious beliefs. I think that's because of the communist (=atheist) regime they were under for a long time. Indeed many Albanians convert to christianity in Greece.

There are catholics in northern Albania, I think St. Francis of Assisi
is some monastery in northern Albania.

Back to Top
Mortaza View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jul-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3711
  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 12:36

And that's really the only thing Greece needs to wrongfully annex Southern Albania.

Greece cannot do it, well at least not when there is a turkey.

 

Back to Top
bg_turk View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2347
  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 12:56
I have talked to many albanians about the issue as well. For them religion is of secondary importance to ethnic origin, intermarriage between people professing different religions is widespread, but marriage with foreigners is usually frowned upon.
Back to Top
bg_turk View Drop Down
Sultan
Sultan
Avatar

Joined: 28-Jan-2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2347
  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 12:59

There is also a region in Greece - Chameria - from which all Albanians were expelled as recently as the Second World War. Albanian Chams today demand their property rights and the right of return, but their demands fall on death ears on the Greek side.

Back to Top
Theodore Felix View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 10-Jan-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 769
  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 14:58
Greece cannot do it, well at least not when there is a turkey.


Actually, in the early 20th century the decision did largely go to Istanbul and the Sultan sided with the Patriarch of Constantinople to give the land to Greece. On top of that, Turkey decided to further complicate the issue by not allowing the teaching of the Alb language in the region to further push assimilation of the Orthodox Albs into the Greek sphere. My great grandfather actually took up arms in the area of Korca against Turks because of this. In Korca, an Alb school was not allowed to be built.

I dont see how that comment makes any sense, since to this day Turkey has not done a single thing to aid in Alb politics.

Since a century ago, we stopped looking to Turkey as a protector and really dont see Turkey as anything more then a friendly neighbor now.

If they are Orthodox, then the Greeks and Serbs claim that they are then Greeks or Serbs -something that is as logical as saying that every Roman Catholic is Roman.


There is truth and falsety to this. First, my mothers side being Orthodox Christian, and myself have extensively travelled around the Orthodox majority areas can say they are infact Albs. But, fault lying greatly to the ottoman social division system, because of the millet system imposed by the ottomans, there were no Albanians, in the region, the only recognized people were muslims and orthodox and catholics(who were greatly oppressed by the ottomans and orthodox). So, when politics are concerned, traditionally Greece continued to go by this system and thus recognizing any Alb orthodox as Greek. Hence the high number of Greeks, which corresponds to the number of Orthodox in the south, a number which has also been growing lately due also to the dogma of being a muslim and thus being connected to the east.

Matters are further complicated when dealing with the economic system of Albania with that of Greece. For many in the south, even among muslim ones, it has become a popular thing to adopt the idea that they are Greeks in order to then move to Greece, those who were muslims generally get baptized to orthodoxy(similarly, many muslim Albs in Italy I know have become Catholics, one of my aunts who is of Bektash Muslim origin, has long since become a Catholic and works at a church in the northern italian city of Treviso).

They told me that if anything the country is primarily atheistic or agnostic -by an overhwelming majority, and that beyond that are the Orthodox and Roman Catholic churches, followed by the Muslims.


Well, thanks(or no, dependign on how you view it), the social and econimical issue in Albania is weak enough that many Arabs have seeped in and begun paying the locals in the urban areas to cover up(the average is about 200 euro a month, which goes for damnlot) and the amount of mosques that have resurfaced is quite large. Almost all are cheaply and poorly made and done enmasse.

According to a new Catholic done census system. All the three major religions in the country have have cut by 30-50%. Making atheist/agnosticism the top. Catholicism originally 10-15% is said to have dropped to around 5-7%. orthodoxy, which was originally about 20-25 has dropped to about 10-15, and Islam has been cut in half, especially considering the growing feeling of the bektash to separate entirely from Sunni Islam in Albania and become their own thing, once again boosted by hopes of further disconnecting from the east.

Edited by Theodore Felix
Back to Top
Mila View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 17-Sep-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4030
  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 15:02
Albania has established a coherent, inclusive, universal national and ethnic identity - similar to Turkey. It doesn't matter what your religious background, if you're Albanian - you're Albanian, nothing more and nothing less.

Kosovar Albanians are virtually completely Muslim and since the war are quite, by Balkan Islamic standards, religious. There is a small but significant Roman Catholic minority among Kosovar Albanians.

In Albania, religion is making a comeback but in a universal way. The leaders of religions in Albania - from Orthodox Christians, to Roman Catholics, to Muslims, to Jews - form a single official organization and rarely declare anything that is not agreed upon universally.

In rural Albania, members of all the different faiths often share a single house of worship and a single cemetery.

Most Albanians have an Islamic cultural heritage - Muslim names, Muslim family traditions, Muslim holidays, etc. Even Albanian Christians often celebrate Muslim holy days, even if no one is aware thats what they're actually celebrating. (Same as Muslims in Bosnia celebrate Christian 'carnival').

Certain areas are more religious than others. Gjirokaster, as I've heard it, is extremely secular with any expression of religion whatsoever being frowned upon. Berat and most of the Eastern regions of Albania are more Islamic. Korca and Saranda are mainly Orthodox Christian.

And on, and on, and on.
[IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">
Back to Top
Theodore Felix View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 10-Jan-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 769
  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 15:08
Most Albanians have an Islamic cultural heritage - Muslim names, Muslim family traditions, Muslim holidays, etc. Even Albanian Christians often celebrate Muslim holy days, even if no one is aware thats what they're actually celebrating. (Same as Muslims in Bosnia celebrate Christian 'carnival').


Universalism is true. For instance for a patron Saint that was being celebrated in a northern region, last time I went, there was a massive turnout of muslims, same with an orthodox event that occured and a bektashi one.

Gjirokaster, as I've heard it, is extremely secular with any expression of religion whatsoever being frowned upon. Berat and most of the Eastern regions of Albania are more Islamic. Korca and Saranda are mainly Orthodox Christian.


Um.... wrong... heh Actually, with teh exception of Saranda(which also has two mosques now), the religious feeling in all is pretty much the same.

Mila, you seem to speak rather authoritavely, what exactly gives you such official info... I have been to all those areas, and the religious feeling, besides Saranda, is almsot exactly the same. The same old men who will proudly point you to both the old mosques and old churches.

Edited by Theodore Felix
Back to Top
Mortaza View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jul-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3711
  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 15:09

I dont see how that comment makes any sense, since to this day Turkey has not done a single thing to aid in Alb politics.

Since a century ago, we stopped looking to Turkey as a protector and really dont see Turkey as anything more then a friendly neighbor now.

I complately agree with you, I am talking about near future. Turkey wont let greece to annex any land because of Turkey-greece conflict.

At least, now without giving our share. I am talking about politics not friendship.

Even my people have sympaty for albanians, It is mainly interest who rule country politics.

Sorry for disappointing you at one century ago(most probably young Turk times, did they try to asimilate albanians), I have no idea about albanian history, can you have a link?

 

Back to Top
Theodore Felix View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 10-Jan-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 769
  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 15:12
Sorry for disappointing you at one century ago(most probably young Turk times, did they try to asimilate albanians), I have no idea about albanian history, can you have a link?


I dont read my history online.

I complately agree with you, I am talking about near future. Turkey wont let greece to annex any land because of Turkey-greece conflict.


Um.. I would really like it if we were left out of your squabble's, and Alb wants the same.
Back to Top
Mortaza View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jul-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3711
  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 15:17

I am sure you would like it, but you know politics

Anyway, I dont think, Albania will interest with turkish-greek conflict, but most probably otherwise.

Anyway, I am sure, Albanian politicians know what to do with turkey.

 

 

Back to Top
Theodore Felix View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 10-Jan-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 769
  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 15:18
I am sure you would like it, but you know politics


Yea, I know politics indeed, and so far Albania has been on a course of complete neutrality. Infact, greko-Turkish disputes are not even spoken of.
Back to Top
Mortaza View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jul-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3711
  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 15:23

Infact I think, albania can do nothing about greece-turkey conflict.

Not politically, not economically speacialy not militarily.

But I think Turkey is trying to decrease effect of serb-greek alliance(If there is something like this)

At least, for short times, I think albania will benefit turkey friendship, turkey wont ask her to much thing.

If albanian position becomes better, it is another question.

But militarily albania never can help Turkey, at least not without another balkan war.

 

 

 

Back to Top
Theodore Felix View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 10-Jan-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 769
  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 15:27
But I think Turkey is trying to decrease effect of serb-greek alliance(If there is something like this)


Umm, yea throw that out the window:

Greek diplomats urge change in government policy on Kosovo

Text of report by Irini Karanasopoulou, entitled "Kosovo like... USA", published by Greek newspaper Ta Nea on 13 March; subheadings and ellipsis in newspaper headline as published

High-level diplomatic officials of the Foreign Ministry are suggesting a turn of the country's foreign policy on Kosovo so that there will be openings towards the Albanians and a "diplomatic reception" of the almost certain independence of the area in 2006.

Foreign Minister Dora Bakoyianni has not made any final decisions on the issue but, according to her associates, she seems to initially agree with the need of adjusting the foreign policy on Kosovo, also following her recent tour in the former Yugoslavia.

Independence is certain

In their suggestions, these officials note that Kosovo's independence - either through talks or in another way - must be considered certain, given that this is the choice of the Americans with the support of the British.

At the same time, the same diplomats are saying, the French are not interested, while the Germans are neutral since their interest in former Yugoslavia has in fact been exhausted in Slovenia and Croatia.

"The only thing we achieve by speaking continuously about the need not to have asphyxiating timetables, not to change the borders, not to have a solution if it is not agreed, is to be against both the Albanians and the international factor," the high-ranking diplomatic officials pointed out to the Foreign Ministry's new leadership, reminding that the diplomatic establishment has had this view since year 2000 but the governments had not accepted it. For this reason, they add, "it would be good if the 'green light' to a possible change of policy - provided this is decided by the government - is to be given at the highest possible level, by the Prime Minister himself.

In three countries

The diplomatic officials' suggestion points out that as soon as Kosovo becomes independent, the Albanian element will dominate in three countries - Albania, Kosovo and Skopje [Macedonia]. Consequently, good relationship with the Albanians will operate in a protective way for the existing Greek investments but also for future ones. They note that with Kosovo becoming independent, the money of exiled Kosovars will start flowing into the area since so far they were hesitating to send money to their fatherland which was under a disputed regime.

As a first opening towards the Albanians, the diplomats propose the establishment of a channel of communication with new Kosovo prime minister, general [Agim] Ceku, former UCK [Kosovo Liberation Army] member.

According to Washington, he constitutes to be the best choice because he is accepted as a hero in Kosovo and consequently he can make "offers" to the Serbs - which is also something that Athens wants.

Source: Ta Nea, Athens, in Greek 13 Mar 06

At least, for short times, I think albania will benefit turkey friendship, turkey wont ask her to much thing.


That depends, if the request gets the green light from europe and america, then yea it will happen. But if the request goes against any of them, dont expect much if anything.

Edited by Theodore Felix
Back to Top
Theodore Felix View Drop Down
General
General
Avatar

Joined: 10-Jan-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 769
  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 15:27
delete this please.

Edited by Theodore Felix
Back to Top
Mortaza View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar

Joined: 21-Jul-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3711
  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 15:39

So at least, greece begin to use her mind.(to bad for us)

Albanian power at balkain will rise at next 10-50 year.(my humble guess)

Kosova, albania than most probably macedonia(at least albanians will have some saying)

So greeks will have 2 albanian 1 pro-albanian neighbor. Also I should say, bulgaria can have pro-turkish.(If Turkish minority integrate well)

So she should improve her relations with albania. To bad, they just discovered this.

Serbia looks like divided 2 time more, montenegro(I am realy curious what will happen about sancak) and kosova. So It is not a enough powerful ally.

That depends, if the request gets the green light from europe and america, then yea it will happen. But if the request goes against any of them, dont expect much if anything.

Nah I dont think so for now, I think what turkey want is only increase relationship, and a friendly country at balkain.(maybe should say one more friendly country)

You wont recognize TRNC, will you?

 

 

 

Back to Top
The Chargemaster View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

Kishokan

Joined: 02-Feb-2006
Location: Bulgaria
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1066
  Quote The Chargemaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2006 at 16:08

About the religions in Albania and about the ehnic situation in Albania, all of you can take a look at this site for the census in Albania in 1918: http://www-gewi.kfunigraz.ac.at/suedost/seiner/maps.html

Really, this is an old information, but i think that nevertheless is interesting.

 

Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  123 9>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.053 seconds.