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Leonardo
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Topic: A question for AE Balkan members only Posted: 24-Jul-2006 at 04:10 |
You can read here : http://www.israelshamir.net/English/Ottomans.htm
an article, Ottoman Empire, please come back!, by Israel Shamir.
What do you think about it?
The question is only for AE Balkan people (Greeks, Albanians, Serbs, Bulgarians, Romanians, Bosnians, ...). Other people, please, abstain to comment (especially Turks )
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NikeBG
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Posted: 24-Jul-2006 at 06:35 |
An interesting read... A lot of fantasy, some funny "nationalist history" and even more utopic view of future. So for me it's just a funny read, nothing serious... And concerning the subject of "East-European-Middle-Eastern Union" - not such a bad thing as an utopia, but otherwise it's completely impossible...
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Richard XIII
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Posted: 24-Jul-2006 at 06:57 |
no way, at least for romania
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"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details."
Albert Einstein
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Leonardo
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Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 01:11 |
Thanks for your answers.
Other opinions?
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Arbr Z
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Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 11:52 |
In my opinion, we cannot consider bringing back the ottoman, or the byzantine empire. It is just anachronical. But certainly it would be great if the balkan countries integrated to a balkan confederation of independent states, which would still have space for the national interests of every nation. Naturally, before of that, nations should emancipy, echonomical standards should raise, and the infrastructure should support free movement. But balkan as a unitar country, I guess I wouldnt like that.
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Prej heshtjes...!
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Menumorut
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Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 12:29 |
The article is pure phantesy. The author confuse deliberately a Napoleon`s replica about the `Tatar in any Russian` with Churchill who never sayed that any Russian is a Turk.
Is a political manipulation I think.
I dont believe Greece is devastated by Euro and estival turism.
In Balkans the anti-Ottoman feelings were allways so strong that nobody could think that this empire was good for them or would be good now.
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Greek Tragedy
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Posted: 25-Jul-2006 at 17:38 |
i agree, growing up hearing things around me, 'this ottoman empire that wrecked the lives of greeks and their ways of their people and land and how the turks took over and took constantinole from us and turned that area all turkisized and wrecked everything.' lol i really think this guy is dreaming. noone in the balkans wants to hear about this ottoman empire coming back. lets move foreward, because balkan people fight over things with their neighbors enough without the ottomans even around anymore. basically its as dumb as people wanting the roman empire back, why? get help. people are so fasinated by empires but forget that other people dont want to be controlled or apart of the people controlling you. we all want our seperate unions.
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bg_turk
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Posted: 26-Jul-2006 at 14:56 |
Originally posted by Leonardo
The question is only for AE Balkan people (Greeks, Albanians, Serbs, Bulgarians, Romanians, Bosnians, ...). Other people, please, abstain to comment (especially Turks )
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That's ridiculous! Turks are a Balkan peopel. Almost ever second non-kurdish citizen of Turkey has his roots in the Balkans. Even now there are more Turks in the Balkans than Greeks, Serbs or Bulgarians seperately. So your attempt to exclude Turks from the list of Balkan people is a miserable failure. To your utter disappointment the Balkans have been and are still swarming with Turks. Regarding the article... I haven't read it completely, but the idea of reviving the Ottoman Empire or the Byzantine Empire is absurd. The Ottoman empire failed because it was destined to fail - it was stagnating economically and with the divergent interests and the rising nationalism of its constitutent peoples it was bound to break apart. I am more open minded towards developing a Balkan Union which would allow Balkan countries to stand against Western Imperialism.
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Leonardo
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Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 04:48 |
Originally posted by bg_turk
Originally posted by Leonardo
The question is only for AE Balkan people (Greeks, Albanians, Serbs, Bulgarians, Romanians, Bosnians, ...). Other people, please, abstain to comment (especially Turks ) |
That's ridiculous! Turks are a Balkan peopel. Almost ever second non-kurdish citizen of Turkey has his roots in the Balkans. Even now there are more Turks in the Balkans than Greeks, Serbs or Bulgarians seperately. So your attempt to exclude Turks from the list of Balkan people is a miserable failure. To your utter disappointment the Balkans have been and are still swarming with Turks.
Regarding the article... I haven't read it completely, but the idea of reviving the Ottoman Empire or the Byzantine Empire is absurd. The Ottoman empire failed because it was destined to fail - it was stagnating economically and with the divergent interests and the rising nationalism of its constitutent peoples it was bound to break apart.
I am more open minded towards developing a Balkan Union which would allow Balkan countries to stand against Western Imperialism.
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Dear bg_turk, you have misunderstood my post. Probably my command of English language is too limited and I'm not able to express myself or your sense of humour was not enough to catch the irony in my words
I know very well that there is also a Balkan Turkey and, moreover, you as a Bulgarian Turk are permitted to express your opinion
Of course, I'm interested to know also the opinions of Turkish people who consider themselves Balkan.
P.S. I too am against "western imperialism" if you mean "western" the Anglo-sphere
Edited by Leonardo - 27-Jul-2006 at 04:49
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Arbr Z
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Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 11:34 |
Now. lets not mix things. Everybody, from moldova to cyprus belongs politically to what is called "The Balkans" or "South Eastern Europe". It doesnt matter if people want it or not, the turkish are balkanic, politically, geographically and culturally. And of course, they are also asiatic, in the same time.It is like the case of russia, they certainly are european, but they are also asiatic, geographically and politically.
Nobody likes an empire, people in this area of the world always loved their freedom (paradoxically they had it very rarely, occupation, authoritarian states, monarchies, empires, comunism etc destroyed their freedom). But, like the whole world, the balkan states have to integrate within eachother, to stand the pressure of the world market etc. And it has to integrate in the EU also. Economicaly and politically I am pro integration. But culturally I am against it. The balkan peninsula is the microcosmos where a plethora of cultures, different and similar in the same time coexist, in peace or war times. The cultural integration could lead to death some "weak" cultures, who will not stand the pressure of bigger cultures.
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Prej heshtjes...!
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NikeBG
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Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 11:43 |
Yes, some Turks are Balkanians (hey, I like how this sounds)! BUT, the Turks were also the bigger part of the Ottoman ruling elite, so this would be quite a biased question for them. Of course, Turks could also speak here, but in their oppinions on this matter it should be considered that they would naturally have more reasons to want to revive the Ottoman Empire than the rest of the Balkan people. I don't say all Turks would want it, but they would want it more than the other Balkanians.
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bg_turk
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Posted: 27-Jul-2006 at 15:19 |
Originally posted by NikeBG
Of course, Turks could also speak here, but in their oppinions on this matter it should be considered that they would naturally have more reasons to want to revive the Ottoman Empire than the rest of the Balkan people. I don't say all Turks would want it, but they would want it more than the other Balkanians.
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I disagree. There are always fringe groups, but they are insignificant, and the majority of Turks would not support the the revival of the Ottoman Empire. There was in fact a group among Turks (and Kurds) in Germany, which wanted to revive the Ottoman Empire (I think they called it Halifat), but they were banned in Turkey. The leader was arrested not too long ago and deported to Turkey, where he is imprisoned because he had plans to ram a plane into Ataturk's mausuleum. Imperialists are very bitter at Ataturk because he abolished the halifat. Sure, there still could be a few imperialists in Turkey, but they are a minority, and more importantly they are at odds with the secular establishment which makes them even weaker. Turkish nationalism which is centered around the Turkishness and Turkish language and Ottoman Imperialism which was centered around Islam are two incompatible concepts. Even the most extreme Turkish nationalist would not support a revival of the Ottoman Empire because this would weaken the Turkish character of the state she leaves in.
Edited by bg_turk - 27-Jul-2006 at 15:21
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