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Why not a new islam?

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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Why not a new islam?
    Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 17:21
Hi,

Notwithstading the holocaust the most important factor that helped the transformation of judaism from a religion of the other into a western faith was the rise of a new form of religious practice more open and more modern. There are still traditional institutions, but most of the synagogues have mixed genders, hired female rabbis, developed batmizvas (female equivalent of barmizvas) and in general became very liberal on numerous social issues.

As a result from very christian countries (like the US) to very secular one (like France), the Jewish communities have found their place. The same can be said about the Catholic Church. Even though the progresses are less spectacular and the decision more centralised the concil Vatican 2 has create a new dynamic and one can hope that the next pope will turn the old church into a modern one.

Despite the recent surge of neo-con evangelist, the position of the Lutherian church in Germany or the archbishopp of Canterbury in England tend to show that protestants are going in the same direction. The development of new religions in the West (buddhism in particular) is another evidence.

But the progresses of Islam seem much less impressive. Despite a highly decentralized structure islam is still highly conservative. Not only there is no female imam, but many worshipers complain that the ministers are out of touch with reality. They tend to have little more to say about issues like sex, drugs, divorce, suicide and so on that these are temptation from the demon and that one has to react as a good muslim.

This is made worth by the influence of Saudi Arabia on the formation of the imams. Not exactly a model of freedom Similarly numerous imams in the West are imported from other countries and may not be able to speak the language of the youth, let alone understanding its problems.

These factors, of course coupled with the bad image of the religion given by international events and endogenous intolerance may be one of the reasons why muslim population have so much trouble to integrate in European countries. As a result the modern elements amongst the muslim population are often given a choice: submission or rupture.

Do you know any attempt aiming at westernizing Islam? Or do you think I am wrong and traditional islam is not being confrontational with modern western values?


Edited by Maharbbal - 07-Jun-2007 at 17:33
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 17:48
Traditional Islam IS being confrontational with Western values.  Islamists revere a form of Islam that cannot be sustained in the modern world, and are willing to harm non-Islamic cultures to make a point.  Non-Islamic cultures are "impure," Satanic and deserve to be destroyed.  What do you think the chances of that are?
 
In my view, there is little likelihood that "traditional" Islam and Western cultures can be reconciled.  Islam requires, indeed demands, submission.  There is no f***ing way the essence of Western cultures will submit to so primitive a concept.  It is not the year 750 AD.
 
The Islamist cancer will be (as most abberations are) a generational phenomenon that will wither and die, which is what it deserves.  All the old "Mahdis" are now just corpses.  The current ones will wind up the same, as shall we all.
 
    
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 17:58
I see you feel strongly about it. But in my opinion (specially since I'm in the US) there is no problem with Islamism if by that you understand political islam. Just switch on the TV and all the presidential candidate of both sides keep going on about their faith and how their faith is important in their decision making etc.

The problem is extreme islamism, just as extreme political catholicism is a problem. The problem is that no presidential candidate will ever be able to say "my muslim faith induces me to think X" because due to a prevalent traditional vision of islam, this type of articulate position is made impossible or at least not likely to be understood nowadays.

PS: I'm strictly referring to the institutions (madrassas and imams) not individual belivers who can be both muslim and modern.
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 18:05
Originally posted by Maharbbal

I see you feel strongly about it. But in my opinion (specially since I'm in the US) there is no problem with Islamism if by that you understand political islam. Just switch on the TV and all the presidential candidate of both sides keep going on about their faith and how their faith is important in their decision making etc.


This doesn't help to convince me much. The US is lately rather belligerent and at odds with the rest of the West as well. Even hostile to many of our cultural values.
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 18:11
Simple answer: Islam and Muslims are not a unit, there are plenty of Westernised Muslims.
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 18:23
That didn't seem to be the point of Maharbbal's post though.  Islamic THEOLOGY demands things that are not compatible with the modern world and modern realities.
 
While many Christian Churches preach things that are unlikely to be practiced, most of them realize that these are ideals, and are willing to roll with the punch.  Imams may encourage violence as "God's Will."  In foreign cultures that is hardly likely to make them welcome, and contributes to the image of Islam as a violent, primitive and threatening religion.
 
Long term, not very healthy for Islam.
 
 
 
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 18:29

well, the point is that there is pretty much only one interpretation of Islamic theology and anything otherwise is considered heresy (for Muahmmad was the last prophet etc etc.. and his word is final) - for example there are offshoots such as Bahaism and Ismailism which are pretty enlightened by Western standards but are persecuted by Islamists.

Also there is the question of the Hadiths which are equivocal to the Jewish Talmud and as such some of them seem somewhat backwards, to say the least.


Edited by Zagros - 07-Jun-2007 at 18:40
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 18:40
Islam (as any religion) is highly plastic. It allows muslim to drop the requisite of ramhadan if they are sick, travelling or pregnant. The fact that Maroccan islam is not Afghan islam proves that it adapts well to various situations. The question is why a western school of practice isn't emerging. Why always going to madrasas in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan?

Look at the Jews or the Catholic, some have been modern for generations (that is why I'm not talking about people but institutions) but in the 20th century both adapted. Many considered Latin as being quintessential for the catholic church, yet it was dropped and now you have female rabbis while traditionalists consider that it is an heresy.

Islam is not special in that sense it can adapt, why isn't it doing it?
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 20:13
Are you sure that Islam is a "plastic" as you think?  The Faith seems to have been frozen in time for at least the last 400 years.  The most recent aspects of the more vigorous and aggressive Islam have seemed (to the West) to be arrogant, fanatical and threatening.
 
In the long run, this will not be a sustainable model for Islam.  If the European imams, or other fanatics, become too strident and aggressive in their pronouncements and activities, a backlash will be impossible to prevent.
 
What the Wahhabis think in Arabia is for the Arabians to deal with.  What the adherents of the Wahhabis in Europe or other foreign lands think is the business of Europeans or someone else.  It would seem likely that these fanatical minorities will be squeezed until they pop....certainly not healthy for Moslems who are, or who want to be, "westernized."
 
Guilt by association usually = condemnation. 
 
  


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 07-Jun-2007 at 20:16
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  Quote pekau Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 20:19
There is nothing wrong with the religion. The problem occurs when the selfish people take advantage of religion for their personal desire. Extremists from every religions are good examples.
     
   
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 20:27
Firstly, Islam has a fundamental resistance to change. It is part of the whole point, don't corrupt the message, stay on the straight path. An event like Vatican 2 is completely impossible in Islam.
Muslims have very strong reverse-secularist tendancies. In the christian world it was always religion interfering in politics, and causing resentment. In the muslim, politics has always tried to interfer in religion. Whether your talking about Caliph or presidents, the relm of theology and law has always struggled to stay separate from executive.
In the modern world, I have noticed that muslims generally don't take religious advice from people they consider to be less conservative* than them.
Islam (as any religion) is highly plastic. It allows muslim to drop the requisite of ramhadan if they are sick, travelling or pregnant.

Islam is not so much plastic as rubbery. You can stretch it but it snaps back into place. Options like not fasting if you can't, or missing prayers if your travelling, are not an adaptation of people for reality at all. It is straight down the line conservatism.
The fact that Maroccan islam is not Afghan islam proves that it adapts well to various situations.

Thats right, but the difference is not in the theology (except very minor things like whether Prawns are Halal or Makru). It is in the culture of the people. Too many people (both muslim and non-muslim) confuse religion and culture.
The question is why a western school of practice isn't emerging. Why always going to madrasas in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan?

Short answer: Western schools are emerging, but these thing take generations and there simply has not been enough time for them to properly evolve. A western Islam, is the same Islam, with the same theology, just in a different climate and culture. My guess is at the moment, western muslims are generally more religious and less politically inclined than our eastern counter-parts.
As for studing overseas, Cairo and Medina have the best universities for Islamic studies in the world so you will always have people going there. The only reason people who study in Pakistan is due to the lack of higher education facilities in the west, however this is changing nowadays. Universities are starting to offer Islamic theology courses in western countries now and this will, in my opinion, remove the need for people to study at overseas unis (other than the exceptional ones like Al-Azha and Medina).



*Remembering that conservative Islam is not the same as a conservative westerner. Or the sterotype.



Edited by Omar al Hashim - 08-Jun-2007 at 00:09
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 20:40
Originally posted by pekau

There is nothing wrong with the religion. The problem occurs when the selfish people take advantage of religion for their personal desire. Extremists from every religions are good examples.
 
There is usually nothing wrong with the philosophy of any religion.  However, if the fanatics of a religion are perceived to be in the ascendency in Europe, and those fanatics attempt to impose regimes on others, or threaten others, there will be conflict and turmoil that will likely be unavoidable.  If it cannot be avoided, those fanatics will ultimately be eliminated.  If it is seen to be sufficiently threatening, elimination will be efficient. 
 
No prison sentences or exile.  Firing squads are efficient; bullets are cheap.  Europeans have had plenty of experience with those from Paris to Spain to Russia.  One's history follows one always.
 
 
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 20:45
Omar,
 
To the fanatical, religion IS culture.  It is all one, and government, law, life and morality cannot be separated.
 
It is part of the primitive conception of life Westerners perceive in Islam.
 
 
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 09:02
Omar do you know any of these modern unis and other programs in the West. Because I've seen unis in France and the USA, but they were financed by Saudi Arabia.
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 10:41
The question is why a western school of practice isn't emerging. Why always going to madrasas in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan?
 
Because islam is not at western part of world?
 
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  Quote Bulldog Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 12:44

Pikeshot
Traditional Islam IS being confrontational with Western values.

And traditional Islam IS?

And what are Western values?


Pikeshot
  Islamists revere a form of Islam that cannot be sustained in the modern world,

And Islamists are? are they all the same?

What is the modern world?

Is Dubai not modern, is Malaysia not modern, is Turkey not modern in a technological, infastructural sense.

Pikeshot
 and are willing to harm non-Islamic cultures to make a point.

Islam is not a "culture" its a religion.

Pikeshot
  Non-Islamic cultures are "impure," Satanic and deserve to be destroyed.

What is an "Islamic culture", there are cultures in the muslim world and these have been influenced by the moral codes and guides of religion however religion and culture are seperate.
It's not culture which unites a Black American muslim and a Bajau sea nomad of Malaysia, its their bond through religion.

Islam does not teach for non-Islamic cultures to be destroyed or that they're satanic.

People with pollitical ideologies and agenda's do.

 

Pikeshot
In my view, there is little likelihood that "traditional" Islam and Western cultures can be reconciled.  Islam requires, indeed demands, submission.

Submission to God.


Pikeshot
 There is no f***ing way the essence of Western cultures will submit to so primitive a concept.  It is not the year 750 AD.

If your in Europe in any big city go to the local mosque and see the number of converts at the mosque and ask them why they're submitting to "so primitive a concept".

Its ignorance which fuels conflict, Pikeshots ignorance is akin to the ignorance of those on the opposite side of the fence, both have intollerant views and don't actually know each other.

Pikeshot
The Islamist cancer

You have the same mentallity as people you supposedly disagree with.

Pikeshot
 will be (as most abberations are) a generational phenomenon that will wither and die, which is what it deserves.
 

Wake up...

In a generation there will be even more muslims in Europe, as long as society carries on crumbling with hurtling levels of broken families, drug and alcohol abuse, generations of uneducated kids living on benefits in closed of council estates and ghettos...and so on, people will carry on looking for an alternative in life, some codes, morals, respect and faith to bring some civillised form of living on their mean streets.

 

Pikeshot
 Islamic THEOLOGY demands things that are not compatible with the modern world and modern realities.

Theology hey, which interpretation would that be, Hanafi? Shafi? Maliki? Hanbali? Jaferi? which theological schools? Maturidi? or maybe Taasawuf though, Naqshibendi, Mevlana, Bektashi, Qadiri...

What is not compatiable with the modern world and realities?
 

Pikeshot
While many Christian Churches preach things that are unlikely to be practiced, most of them realize that these are ideals, and are willing to roll with the punch.  Imams may encourage violence as "God's Will."

Well in the case of Europe, such Imams are only here because in the days when EU's policy was of there being, "good terrorists (freedom fighters who fight others) and bad terrorists (ones who are against us)" they let in a whole array of crack-pot loony Imams on the run who were hated in their homelands and condemned for their deviant preachings and trying to use religion for their pollitical ideologies.

Western European governments were warned about these dangerous people, however, for some reason some leaders thought that they could use these people as bargaining tools or against their own countries if relations with those countries became problematic and so on. Basically, they agreed to, enemy or my enemy is my friend and let these people in on the basis they can act freely, recruit, preach and so on and in return respect the country which allowed them refuge and refrain from attacks against them.

This obviously was a huge mistake, now these idiots are in Europe and turned on their puppet masters.

Ironically some have been sent back to places were apparetntly those states were "abusing their human rights" a few years ago but now apparently they're not, how things change...

Even more sickening is that most of these extremist orders and groups were financed by powerfull countries in the West during the cold war...


Pikeshot
fact that Maroccan islam is not Afghan islam proves that it adapts well to various situations. The question is why a western school of practice isn't emerging. Why always going to madrasas in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan?
Islam is Islam

Cultures of Morrocco and Afganistan are different.

For example, in the Maghbreb the Touregs have their own dress, woman arn't veiled, men where blue headdresses and they have their culture and customes adapted for dessert dwelling.

In Afganistan they have different customs, dresses and so on.

However, they both are muslim, just like John in England who lives in Hampstead, went to Oxford, goes horse-riding on the weekends and mingels with aristocracy has a different culture but John is also muslim.

Or Turks, in Turkic culture woman have a high social status, since pre-Islamic times from the old "Yasa and Tore", men can only have one wife, woman can be leaders and warriors.
When Ibn Battuta travelled among the Turks he also noted, Turks having only one wife, not all woman wearing a veil, men and woman sitting together.
Still today its the same scenario.

However, they're also muslim.


Marhabbal
Many considered Latin as being quintessential for the catholic church, yet it was dropped and now you have female rabbis while traditionalists consider that it is an heresy

Initially there were woman Islamic scholors, teachers and leaders.
Its only later that the patriarchal Arab society of the day tried to enforce their culture instead of religion, hence making men dominant like in the pre-Islamic era.

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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 13:56
Bulldog

The fact that they used to exist create even a bigger problem: why can't they come back?

Why the important proportion of modern muslim in the West (and elsewhere) doesn't lobby for more liberal institutions.

Muslim the West over are often discriminated against, but this simple fact can't explain the apartheid that is going on. I am shock in the UK to realise that young muslim do very good in school but do not mix much with the rest of the population (I mean Pakis I wouldn't know for the rest). Why is that. Integration requires efforts from both sides.
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 15:53

Because, They afraid from asimilation. Generally, diaspora people are more conservative.

Also, what is this liberal islam? You cant change a religion, you can just ignore it(totally or partly).
 
 
 
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 16:26
Mortaza I disagree with you, a religion is as much a collectivisation of the individual mystical experience and this cannot be changed but the moral and political message produced by a religion can evolve and do evolve.

For instance if Islam is a submission to god this can't be changed, but the way the word submission is understood by the majority can. If anything it would reflect better the muslim diasporas that are often not or almost not religious any more.
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  Quote Mortaza Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 16:42

A religion does not produce a political message. Politics use religion.

Moral message? I dont think islam is giving any negative moral message.
 
 
Also that fully submission thing is nothing more than European idea. Yes, Muslims should not make sin, is this different than other religions?. But hell, which muslim do this? Zero. So noone is fully submit God.
 
 
 
 
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