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The Charioteer 
Colonel 
Joined: 16-Feb-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 735 |
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 Topic: "5000 years of Chinese history"Posted: 25-Nov-2007 at 00:01 |
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I know what you were referring to, the Xia recorded history of the Xia and Sima qian get Xia and pre-Xia history from word of mouth basis just like his western counterpart, but i was trying to say this wasnt exactly the situation as reponse to your latter saying.
thats where i think its necessary to trace the difference in the original concepts, and to understand how it may not attribute necessarily to uniformity in the analogy of "history" because of that difference.
there are similarities as well differences, neither should be neglected.
my focus was on the difference between the "history", not necessarily which one is "better".
perhaps my statement was the one thats unclear. Edited by The Charioteer - 25-Nov-2007 at 00:09 |
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elenos
Chieftain 
Joined: 13-Jun-2007 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1457 |
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Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 06:38 |
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"you mean Chinese history is for trolls only?"
Chinese history is for everybody isn't it? Like everybody else, no matter what their ethnicity, you can share in the Australian experience, welcome. |
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elenos
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The Charioteer
Colonel
Joined: 16-Feb-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 735 |
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Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 04:44 |
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and i value this advice very much, thank you.
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The Charioteer
Colonel
Joined: 16-Feb-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 735 |
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Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 04:39 |
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you mean Chinese history is for trolls only?
and I actually care more about Australian politics, because it is the only politics would affect my life.
and as an ethnic minority i especially care about racism in Australia.
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Omnipotence
Baron 
Joined: 16-Nov-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 494 |
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Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 04:08 |
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Hate to step in, but calling someone a newbie do tend to kindle the flame. I do value your knowledge Charioteer, but I doubt there's need to get so emotional. btw, I'm not really against cussing, but there are very touchy moderators who would smear these cuss words all over you. Just a word of advise. |
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elenos
Chieftain
Joined: 13-Jun-2007 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1457 |
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Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 02:24 |
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Please don't be put out because of me, you are teaching me things here some of us never knew before. Would you say you are typical of a fair minded person by saying Chinese history is only for the Chinese? And does that qualify you to make informed comments on the politics of other countries?
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elenos
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The Charioteer
Colonel
Joined: 16-Feb-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 735 |
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Posted: 24-Nov-2007 at 00:21 |
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nah i only become aggressive when facing biased and ignorant f**ks like those racist pigs, i have no regard for them you can bet on that.
keep performing, im rather enjoying the show, its entertaining really.
you want trolling i will give what you want.
Edited by The Charioteer - 24-Nov-2007 at 00:23 |
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elenos
Chieftain
Joined: 13-Jun-2007 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1457 |
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Posted: 23-Nov-2007 at 23:54 |
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My post wasn't actually about Australian politics, sorry if the elections permeated my post.
"btw, i already did my vote by postal, so whats screwed with the dirty election campaign tactics with anti-muslim racism? nah, i have already label this government "racist" anyway, so i said "f**k off" to these racist pigs with my ballot paper. Labor all the way!" As our readers can see by what you saying the politics here have an aggressive flavor all of their own! "acutally im not interested in lecturing newbies. sorry mate." Ah so, always keep the inscrutable oriental face or lose face. |
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elenos
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The Charioteer
Colonel
Joined: 16-Feb-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 735 |
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Posted: 23-Nov-2007 at 23:35 |
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There was also no written record of Shang to prove its existence before oracle bone inscription was discovered. They were regarded as "myth"(mainly by the western historians) back then.
but the problem is there were those successor states to the Shang, like the Song. if the Shang didnt exist, where did the Song come from?
likewisely the Xia
Shiji, Xia dynasty
"太史公曰：禹为姒姓，其後分封，用国为姓，故有夏后氏、有扈氏、有男氏、斟寻氏、彤城氏、襃氏、费氏、杞氏、缯氏、辛氏、冥氏、斟戈氏。孔子正夏时，学者多传夏小正云。自虞、夏时，贡赋备矣。或言禹会诸侯江南，计功而崩，因葬焉，命曰会稽。会稽者，会计也"
to Sima qian, there were many successor states to the Xia, the accounts of the existence of Xia were preserved through their existence, perhaps thats why his predecessor Confucius couldnt ignore the existence of Xia as well because the evidences are too overwhelming to deny .
we all know the last Western Zhou king favored the concubine Bao si, that girl was from bao state, a descendant of the Xia.
another well known descendant state of the Xia, the Qi state, its ruler was referred to as "duke of Xia" by other states. There are various pre-Qin documents can be referenced with. for instance
"有夏虽衰，杞、鄫犹在"《国语周语》
"夫杞，明王之后也"《管子大匡》
"殷汤封夏后于杞，周又封之"《世本王侯》
"成汤卒受大命乃放夏桀，散亡其佐，乃迁姒姓于杞""《大戴礼记少间》
"(卫成)公命祀相，宁武子不可，曰，鬼神非其族类，不歆其祀，杞、鄫何事？"《左传-僖公三十一年记》
"(称杞为)"夏肄(余)"";《左传-襄公二十九年记郑子大叔之语》
oracle bone inscription have the record of the people of Qi as well
"丁酉卜，殼贞，杞侯炬弗其祸，有疾"
"癸巳卜，令登赉杞"
"己卯卜行贞，王其田亡灾，在杞"
"庚辰卜行贞，王其步自杞，亡灾"
"庚寅卜在女香贞，王步于杞，亡灾"
"壬辰卜，在杞贞，王步于意，亡灾"
if the Xia didnt exist, where did the people of Qi come from? just like if the Shang didnt exist, where did the people of Song come from?
the difference is archaeologist havent found any written evidences from erlitou site like they found the oracle bones from Shang ruins.
but to historians like Confucius and Sima qian to prove the existence of Xia and Shang and include it in their history works doesnt have to be determined by archaeology. even they can dig the graves the custom of their society were different from ours.
if anyone say to Confucius that the Shang didnt exist because there was no archaeological evidence of it, he would probably remind them that hes actually the descendant of Shang.
thus in 《逸周书王会》the ruler of Qi state was referred to as "duke of Xia"(夏公),while the ruler of Song state was referred to as "duke of Yin(Shang)"(殷公)
and Confucius actually equals the Song to Shang, and the Qi to Xia
"夏礼，吾能言之，杞不足征也；殷礼，吾能言之，宋不足征也" 《论语八佾》
btw, there is a village near the mausoleum of Yu the great, about more than a thousand people live there today still bear the surname of Si
the clan name of Xia ruling household, the ancestor of these people belonged to Xia household and was assigned to Kuaiji mountain to maintain the mausoleum.
We dont have to dig graves to know the existence of these people.
Edited by The Charioteer - 24-Nov-2007 at 00:11 |
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The Charioteer
Colonel
Joined: 16-Feb-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 735 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 23-Nov-2007 at 22:37 |
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ofcourse, just becareful your post might be hidden by the "Aussie" mod, the "boss" says "no more Australian politics"
 btw, i already did my vote by postal, so whats screwed with the dirty election campaign tactics with anti-muslim racism? nah, i have already label this government "racist" anyway, so i said "f**k off" to these racist pigs with my ballot paper. Labor all the way!
sure, there are overseas Chinese forumers come here to get some Chinese history, i am always here to offer.
acutally im not interested in lecturing newbies. sorry mate.
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Omnipotence
Baron
Joined: 16-Nov-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 494 |
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Posted: 23-Nov-2007 at 22:14 |
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Thanks for the info Charioteer. It seems that my statement was unclear when I said that there was no Xia and pre-Xia written accounts. What I meant was that there was no Xia recorded history of the Xia. But I didn't know there's such a variety of documents about the Xia not long afterwards(and SimaQian's sources on the Xia), so you learn something new everyday.
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elenos
Chieftain
Joined: 13-Jun-2007 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1457 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 23-Nov-2007 at 21:57 |
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As I was saying Charioteer, It's election time in Australia today and we have been swamped by messages about which party has the weight of history on their side. I was commenting on the Australian way and not trying to roast China over the record of ever having free and fair elections. As you say there is a different way of interpreting the world that not all of us can grasp.
You are doing a good job of explaining the long history except in your account I find it hard to follow which people or clan come from where. A map of ethnic types and regions could help, not all of us are familiar with the many distinctions being made. Beside that point keep us the good work, I love seeing the artwork! |
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elenos
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The Charioteer
Colonel
Joined: 16-Feb-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 735 |
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Posted: 23-Nov-2007 at 21:02 |
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talking about the relics of Marquis Yi of Zeng state, and the history of Xia, i just remember another detail from the relics of Marquis Yi
 this depicts the first Xia king Qi. Zeng state was ruled by Ji clan which belongs to the Zhou household.
The Zhou often regard themselves as successor of Xia, in their writtings they often refer themselves as "the people of Xia", they not only regard Yu the great highly, but use him as example to lecture themselves.
perhaps the appearance of Xia figure on this Zeng relic reflects such connection? Edited by The Charioteer - 23-Nov-2007 at 21:03 |
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The Charioteer
Colonel
Joined: 16-Feb-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 735 |
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Posted: 23-Nov-2007 at 19:30 |
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Well, the history of Qin was written by Han historian, the history of Jin dynasty-sixteen kingdoms-northern and southern dynasties were written by Tang historians, and then history of "five dynasties and 10 kingdoms" was written by Song historian, history of Liao, Jin, Song was written by Yuan dynasty, history of Ming dynasty was written by Qing.
for most part they were writing the history of previous dynasties and regimes, not exactly "have historians employed by the ruling party to write what they are told in an order that pleases the current regime" like you say. Edited by The Charioteer - 23-Nov-2007 at 21:11 |
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elenos
Chieftain
Joined: 13-Jun-2007 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1457 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 23-Nov-2007 at 11:37 |
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Well, I feel that way because it's election time in Australia tomorrow. There are many loan words English uses from Chinese, like a person being a mandarin, meaning a high official or they think they are.
Edited by elenos - 23-Nov-2007 at 11:41 |
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elenos
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The Charioteer
Colonel
Joined: 16-Feb-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 735 |
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Posted: 23-Nov-2007 at 08:02 |
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what joke of the day
Edited by The Charioteer - 23-Nov-2007 at 08:02 |
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The Charioteer
Colonel
Joined: 16-Feb-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 735 |
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Posted: 23-Nov-2007 at 07:05 |
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Sima qian wasnt the only one VERY critical of Han wudi, Han wudi was actually VERY critical(not many rulers would or could do the same) of himself thats why he issued the famous Luntai imperial edict during his late reign repenting his past faults in which he acknowledged that his reign has made the people of China suffer. "朕自即位以来，所为狂悖，使天下愁苦，不可追悔。自今事有伤害百姓、靡费天下者，悉罢之" dont forget that his own son, the crown prince rebelled against him, if it wasnt for certain desperate situation he wouldnt have done that. the castration of Sima qian to me actually makes the man more "reliable" . The emperor and majority of court officials pointed fingers at Liling's defeat and surrender to Xiongnu, Sima qian was castrated because he disagree with the court. he dared against the will of the ruler and suffered personally because he wants to preserve the integrity of that historical event. not just simply to record Liling as "a shame and a failure" in history.Just like he wouldnt simply portrait the greatness of Han wudi but also criticize his reign.
i only said the original concepts are different. and when i say these official history are regarded as "reliable history" in comparison to unofficial history. The written accounts of Xia exist quite extensively in the pre-Qin literatures, when he writes the history of Yue state he visited the temple of Yu built by King Goujian, and the tomb of Yu was already in Kuaiji mountain. so was the tomb of Huangdi, these arent stories from word of mouth, they were physical evidences to Sima qian.
The accounts of Xia and Pre-Xia history exist extensive in Pre-Qin literatures, plus there were physical evidences supplementing the possible existence of them. Sima qian as a professional historian just couldnt deny these "myth" in his history work. i think he actually expressed this situation. on one hand he had no way to find out the exact dates prior to Western Zhou, they are either lost or confusing among different sources,( thats why some Chinese historians from early 20th century claimed China has no "history" before Western Zhou.) on the other hand the overwhelming evidences of early times cant be denied, as previous "history" works didnt deny them. Sima qian was continueing with what Confucius left for them. btw: i think Li ao once said Sima qian is greater than Han wudi. Edited by The Charioteer - 23-Nov-2007 at 07:34 |
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Omnipotence
Baron
Joined: 16-Nov-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 494 |
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Posted: 23-Nov-2007 at 06:08 |
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Thank you, but I already know that. jk.. :)
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elenos
Chieftain
Joined: 13-Jun-2007 Location: Australia Online Status: Offline Posts: 1457 |
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Posted: 23-Nov-2007 at 06:04 |
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Good points, Omnipotence.
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elenos
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Omnipotence
Baron
Joined: 16-Nov-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 494 |
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Posted: 23-Nov-2007 at 05:39 |
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^Actually, SiMaQian was VERY critical of emperor Han Wudi(Besides, most of western history weren't written by "democratic" governments anyway). It's probably even overly-critical considering WuDi castrated Simaqian, which would give the latter good reason to make the former look as bad as possible. I doubt any of us would believe that WuDi starved half the population to death. The dynasty would collapse before that happened. It was reported that WuDi fell sick with anger when reading what SiMaQian was going to publish, but in the end he let it become published anyway. I would be angry too if some historian wrongfully criticized me just because I unjustly castrated him for sticking up for a friend . SiMaQian also spoke highly of Xiangyu, who was basically the archnemesis of the Han dynasty. He was to the Han what Hannibal was to Rome, and it is worthy to note that Roman history also spoke highly of Hannibal.
Thus there are capable historians on both sides of the globe who don't do what the upper divisions tell them to do. I am reminded of the Chinese fable(true story) of how a King would execute a historian for writing down a crime that the king had commited. The newly installed historian, knowing this, not only wrote down the King's previous crime in history, but also the execution of the previous historian. The King killed him too. The third historian did exactly what the second historian did, and also wrote down the execution of the second historian. The King realized that killing all these historians would only make himself look worse and worse, so he let the third historian live, and thus we have the knowledge of this event. If any of the historians backed down, we would have never known that this had happened.
Now there's no need to hint at which history is "better". SiMaQian used stories from word-of-mouth as much as Heroditus did when it comes to the Xia dynasty and pre-Xia history. He had to, there's no written records of these time periods. Edited by Omnipotence - 23-Nov-2007 at 06:06 |
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