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Guess
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Topic: British Prime Minister vs. the Monarh Posted: 12-Aug-2007 at 09:30 |
When did the British prime minister become more powerful than the monarch?
When did the british monarch become a total figurehead?
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gcle2003
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Posted: 18-Aug-2007 at 11:22 |
Originally posted by Guess
When did the British prime minister become more powerful than the monarch?
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Tricky one. You have to distinguish between de jure and de facto. De jure both are now in effect appointed by Parliament, but the monarch is monarch for life, whereas the prime minister can be thrown out overnight. A monarch with sufficient parliamentary support is therefore more powerful than the prime minister.
De facto Walpole effectively wielded more power than George I, but that was essentially because George I wasn't interested. George III made back some of the lost ground, developing his own parliamentary majority, but then went mad which didn't help. Arguably the balance of power finally shifted with Victoria, but even at that time the prime minister was nothing like as powerful as now, simply because the central government wasn't as powerful as it is now.
When did the british monarch become a total figurehead? |
Not yet.
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Sikander
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Posted: 18-Aug-2007 at 17:16 |
This goes way back to the times of the Hanover dynasty. George I and George II were hardly able to speak English and in fact didn't cared much about governance. Their eyes were in the Continent rather than in the Islands so he had to nominate an executive body to be in charge of governance affairs.
I guess that afterwards it was just natural evolution: the king's ability to influence the Government or refrain the Parliament had been lost after the ECW so naturaly the Parliament and the head of office simply acquired more power.
Edited by Sikander - 20-Aug-2007 at 08:19
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Peteratwar
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Posted: 20-Aug-2007 at 09:40 |
Originally posted by Guess
When did the British prime minister become more powerful than the monarch?
When did the british monarch become a total figurehead? |
Never did, never was. The Monarch has the power to dismiss the prime Minister and Governement and call on someone else o form a government. In practice this would force a general election which would be based on this action. The result would depend on what the government was up to!
Note also that even if an act is passed by both Houses of Parliament it requires the Monarch's consent before it becomes law. Be aware that this is the people's last defence agains the tyranny of Parliament. Consider the position if a Prime Minister decided to pass an act which kept them in power indeterminately without any elections. Technically perfectly possible and was not so long ago advocated by a government minister (since retired and now sets himself up as a paragon of democracy!). His party has the good sense to reject this. They still lost the election but won back a few years later
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Guess
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Posted: 20-Aug-2007 at 10:25 |
When is the last time the monarch dismissed the government or failed to sign a bill? how often does this happen?
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Peteratwar
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Posted: 20-Aug-2007 at 10:33 |
Back in Queen Anne's time and during the early Georges where basically the relationships were settling down between Parliament and the Crown. There were occasions when the Monarch advised the Prime Minister that he would give his assent. In those cases a consensus was reached so that everything moved forward amicably.
In practice problems are sorted out before hand. Remember it is the Monarch's government that is in power. Any general election merely elects Parliament. The Monarch can ask anyone they like to form a government. In fact the Monarch always asks the person who can command a majority.
Edited by Peteratwar - 20-Aug-2007 at 10:36
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YohjiArmstrong
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Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 05:13 |
Originally posted by Guess
When is the last time the monarch dismissed the government or failed to sign a bill? how often does this happen? |
Essentially this never happens now. Technically she can also refuse to sign any law but again in practice this does not happen.
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Dolphin
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Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 05:34 |
The royals are happy to be billionaires now, they'll not kick up too much of a fuss.
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YohjiArmstrong
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Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 05:39 |
Originally posted by Dolphin
The royals are happy to be billionaires now, they'll not kick up too much of a fuss. |
Well they don't have the support anyway, not to rule. They'll just stick to being a tourist attraction.
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Peteratwar
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Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 09:15 |
Originally posted by YohjiArmstrong
Originally posted by Dolphin
The royals are happy to be billionaires now, they'll not kick up too much of a fuss. |
Well they don't have the support anyway, not to rule. They'll just stick to being a tourist attraction.
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Would disagree strongly there.
There is tremendous support for them especially for Her Majesty whose dedication cannot be faulted.
Given the possible alternatives and the politicians we have I have no doubts as to which I prefer.
As I said earlier the Monarchy is our last defence against the tyranny of Parliament
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YohjiArmstrong
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Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 09:38 |
Support yes, support for a political take over- nope. The political will and potential for a monarchical take over are lacking (even if our politicans are scum).
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Peteratwar
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Posted: 23-Aug-2007 at 09:43 |
Originally posted by YohjiArmstrong
Support yes, support for a political take over- nope. The political will and potential for a monarchical take over are lacking (even if our politicans are scum). |
Never even considered that likely nor would I think that anyone else would consider it
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elenos
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Posted: 30-Aug-2007 at 22:05 |
I thought it all went back to Oliver Cromwell who executed the royals? The Crown was already in deep mashed potatoes with the Parliament. He took it one step further by declaring the protectorate. But him being such a fundamentalist nerd with a wart on the end of his nose turned the people off and the throne was restored. The popular move to dispose of the royals became the popular move to bring them back again.
Edited by elenos - 30-Aug-2007 at 22:06
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elenos
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Patch
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Posted: 31-Aug-2007 at 03:40 |
Originally posted by elenos
I thought it all went back to Oliver Cromwell who executed the royals? The Crown was already in deep mashed potatoes with the Parliament. He took it one step further by declaring the protectorate. But him being such a fundamentalist nerd with a wart on the end of his nose turned the people off and the throne was restored. The popular move to dispose of the royals became the popular move to bring them back again. |
Although the Civil War greatly weakened the monarchy, it was the Glorious Revolution followed by the Act of Settlement, Bill of Rights and Parliment choosing on the Hanovarian succesion that finally established Parlimentary supremecy over the monarch.
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Peteratwar
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Posted: 31-Aug-2007 at 05:38 |
Originally posted by Patch
Originally posted by elenos
I thought it all went back to Oliver Cromwell who executed the royals? The Crown was already in deep mashed potatoes with the Parliament. He took it one step further by declaring the protectorate. But him being such a fundamentalist nerd with a wart on the end of his nose turned the people off and the throne was restored. The popular move to dispose of the royals became the popular move to bring them back again. |
Although the Civil War greatly weakened the monarchy, it was the Glorious Revolution followed by the Act of Settlement, Bill of Rights and Parliment choosing on the Hanovarian succesion that finally established Parlimentary supremecy over the monarch. |
Actually not true in legal terms. The Monarch has the power to disolve Parliament.
Clearly doing so would start a Constitutional crisis and the reasons therefor would be crucial.
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Peteratwar
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Posted: 31-Aug-2007 at 05:41 |
Originally posted by elenos
I thought it all went back to Oliver Cromwell who executed the royals? The Crown was already in deep mashed potatoes with the Parliament. He took it one step further by declaring the protectorate. But him being such a fundamentalist nerd with a wart on the end of his nose turned the people off and the throne was restored. The popular move to dispose of the royals became the popular move to bring them back again. |
Note only the then Monarch was executed after a trial. That move was by no means popular with the country at large.
Oliver Cromwell's appearance/fundamentalism is/was irrelevant. After he died his successors were getting into such a mess that the restoration was virtually inevitable
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elenos
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Posted: 31-Aug-2007 at 06:28 |
Let's not push it too far! Cromwell was no angel.
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elenos
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Patch
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Posted: 31-Aug-2007 at 07:12 |
Originally posted by Peteratwar
Originally posted by Patch
Originally posted by elenos
I thought it all went back to Oliver Cromwell who executed the royals? The Crown was already in deep mashed potatoes with the Parliament. He took it one step further by declaring the protectorate. But him being such a fundamentalist nerd with a wart on the end of his nose turned the people off and the throne was restored. The popular move to dispose of the royals became the popular move to bring them back again. |
Although the Civil War greatly weakened the monarchy, it was the Glorious Revolution followed by the Act of Settlement, Bill of Rights and Parliment choosing on the Hanovarian succesion that finally established Parlimentary supremecy over the monarch. |
Actually not true in legal terms. The Monarch has the power to disolve Parliament.
Clearly doing so would start a Constitutional crisis and the reasons therefor would be crucial. |
But Parliment has the power legally to choose who should by monarch. If when the present Queen dies Parliment wanted e.g. you to be the next king then they make it so, regardless of Charles' claim.
If you read the Bill of rights you will see that the monarch's de jure as well as de facto powers are limited.
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Peteratwar
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Posted: 31-Aug-2007 at 10:41 |
Originally posted by Patch
Originally posted by Peteratwar
Originally posted by Patch
Originally posted by elenos
I thought it all went back to Oliver Cromwell who executed the royals? The Crown was already in deep mashed potatoes with the Parliament. He took it one step further by declaring the protectorate. But him being such a fundamentalist nerd with a wart on the end of his nose turned the people off and the throne was restored. The popular move to dispose of the royals became the popular move to bring them back again. |
Although the Civil War greatly weakened the monarchy, it was the Glorious Revolution followed by the Act of Settlement, Bill of Rights and Parliment choosing on the Hanovarian succesion that finally established Parlimentary supremecy over the monarch. |
Actually not true in legal terms. The Monarch has the power to disolve Parliament.
Clearly doing so would start a Constitutional crisis and the reasons therefor would be crucial. |
But Parliment has the power legally to choose who should by monarch. If when the present Queen dies Parliment wanted e.g. you to be the next king then they make it so, regardless of Charles' claim.
If you read the Bill of rights you will see that the monarch's de jure as well as de facto powers are limited.
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No the line of succession has been set. A new act of Parliament would be needed to change it.
Never said the Monarch's powers aren't limited, but there are still some important ones there as I have said.
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Patch
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Posted: 31-Aug-2007 at 16:11 |
Originally posted by Peteratwar
Originally posted by Patch
Originally posted by Peteratwar
Originally posted by Patch
Originally posted by elenos
I thought it all went back to Oliver Cromwell who executed the royals? The Crown was already in deep mashed potatoes with the Parliament. He took it one step further by declaring the protectorate. But him being such a fundamentalist nerd with a wart on the end of his nose turned the people off and the throne was restored. The popular move to dispose of the royals became the popular move to bring them back again. |
Although the Civil War greatly weakened the monarchy, it was the Glorious Revolution followed by the Act of Settlement, Bill of Rights and Parliment choosing on the Hanovarian succesion that finally established Parlimentary supremecy over the monarch. |
Actually not true in legal terms. The Monarch has the power to disolve Parliament.
Clearly doing so would start a Constitutional crisis and the reasons therefor would be crucial. |
But Parliment has the power legally to choose who should by monarch. If when the present Queen dies Parliment wanted e.g. you to be the next king then they make it so, regardless of Charles' claim.
If you read the Bill of rights you will see that the monarch's de jure as well as de facto powers are limited.
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No the line of succession has been set. A new act of Parliament would be needed to change it.
Never said the Monarch's powers aren't limited, but there are still some important ones there as I have said. |
Precisely - A New ACT OF PARLIMENT - thus parliment can change the succession. Parliment changed the succession in 1688, again in 1701 and again 1937. Parliment decides who will be monarch.
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