Author |
Share Topic Topic Search Topic Options
|
Zagros
Emperor
Suspended
Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8792
|
Quote Reply
Topic: Surviving Pahlavi Dialect: Awramani Posted: 11-Aug-2005 at 13:02 |
This Middle Iranian Language still survives among Awramani Kurds deep in the mountains of Kermanshah in the city of Pahveh, near the Iraqi border. Awramani Kurds also inhabit the bordering region in Iraq.
I have been to Paveh in the winter, it is very beautiful, on the peak of one of the nearby mountains lie the ruins of one of the best preserved Zaroastrian temples in Iran, it was inaccessible due to the snowy terrain and would have taken several hours to reach regardless.
Iranologists should take a deep interest in this area as it will provide much more information about the Pahlavi language, a derivative of Median.
Edited by Zagros
|
|
Zagros
Emperor
Suspended
Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8792
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Aug-2005 at 13:03 |
|
|
Cent
Chieftain
Joined: 20-Jun-2005
Location: Sweden
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1013
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Aug-2005 at 13:51 |
Yeah, Kurds have many different dialects.
By the way Zagros: What is Pahlavi?
|
They don't speak enough about the Kurds, because we have never taken hostages, never hijacked a plane. But I am proud of this.
Abdul Rahman Qassemlou
|
|
morticia
Sultan
Retired AE Editor
Joined: 09-Aug-2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2077
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Aug-2005 at 14:07 |
If memory serves me correctly, Pahlavi was the family name of the last Shah of Iran (Mohammad Reza Shah Pahlavi), who went into exile with his family after the Ayatollah Komeini took control of Iran. I believe the period of time that the Pahlavis had control of Iran was called the Pahlavi Era. Is that correct Zagros?
Morty
|
|
Zagros
Emperor
Suspended
Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8792
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Aug-2005 at 14:14 |
No, Pahlavi is the pretentious name Reza Shah gave himself after the Pahlavi language of the Parthians/Sassanids, a middle Iranian tongue.
Edited by Zagros
|
|
Shahanshah
Samurai
Joined: 11-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 121
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Aug-2005 at 16:21 |
Zagros, if you dont mind me asking, are you a kurd?
pahlavi is a middle persian language right?
anyway, is it possible that kurds were once persians/medians only now they are arabized?
I think kurds are more arabized than persians, because I was watching a kurdish program on TV, at first I thought it was arabic, because they spoke like arabs. but then they showed the kurdistan flag. then i started paying attention more to what they were saying, then i could understand something which were similar to farsi.
|
King of Kings, The Great King, King of the world.
|
|
Zagros
Emperor
Suspended
Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8792
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Aug-2005 at 16:47 |
That is nonsense.
I am from Kermanshah and I have both Kurdish and Persian blood.
The Kurdish languages are less afflicted with Arabic. You should also realise that most Kurdish TV channels broadcast in Arabic and Assyrian (sounds like Arabic) too. Some Iraqi Kurds speak their language with an Arabic accent, often gutteralising the "H" sound.
Kurdish dialects are far closer Middle Iranian languages than Modern Persian and that is why this Middle Iranian language (pure) survives among Kurds.
Modern Kurds are descended from many peoples, including Median, Persian, Hurrian and Armenian.
|
|
Shahanshah
Samurai
Joined: 11-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 121
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Aug-2005 at 17:11 |
Originally posted by Zagros
That is nonsense.
|
what? what did I say?
The Kurdish languages are less afflicted with Arabic. You should also realise that most Kurdish TV channels broadcast in Arabic and Assyrian (sounds like Arabic) too. Some Iraqi Kurds speak their language with an Arabic accent, often gutteralising the "H" sound.
Kurdish dialects are far closer Middle Iranian languages than Modern Persian and that is why this Middle Iranian language (pure) survives among Kurds.
Modern Kurds are descended from many peoples, including Median, Persian, Hurrian and Armenian.
|
no no , as i said when i started paying attention it was kurdish. It was probably an Iraqi kurdish program.
is it really pure? it can't possibly be.
modern persians are descendent of elamites, medians, pars, armenian and alll other peoples, there is no purity in our race. so whats your point? kurds are hurrians in origin?
|
King of Kings, The Great King, King of the world.
|
|
Zagros
Emperor
Suspended
Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8792
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 11-Aug-2005 at 17:33 |
It is nonsense that they are more Arabized. Considering that "Arabised" can only be used in a linguistic context.
I said pure in terms of language, that is it [Awrimani] is a purer form of Iranian language than Persian.
|
|
Aydin
Baron
Suspended
Joined: 13-Aug-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 481
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 01:01 |
The closest language to the pahlavi language is Sangesari, which is nowhere near Kurdestan, Sangesaries still celebrate the tiregan.
|
|
farohar
Janissary
Joined: 02-Jul-2005
Location: Australia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 28
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 05:02 |
How about Naini? Isn't that a relatively close descendent of Old Persian? My father's Naini and it doesn't sound very much like Modern Iranian
There's a project currently underway by these researchers from the US to preserve Dari, from Yazd and I think Kerman, but more concentrated on Yazd, they're going to document vocab., grammar, etc and hopefully publish it
Arash
|
Humata, Hukta, Huvarashta
Good Thoughts, Good Words, Good Deeds
|
|
Zagros
Emperor
Suspended
Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8792
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 06:21 |
Do you guys have any information on the mentioned languages?
Edited by Zagros
|
|
Zagros
Emperor
Suspended
Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8792
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 06:36 |
Originally posted by Aydin
The closest language to the pahlavi language is Sangesari, which is nowhere near Kurdestan, Sangesaries still celebrate the tiregan.
|
Awramani isn't just close to Pahlavi, it IS a Pahlavi dialect.
I found this on Sangesari.
The Sangesari language
Group |
Iranian (with Avestan, Parthian etc.), Northwest Iranian (with Baluchi, Kurdish etc.) |
Geography & History |
It is sometimes rather hard to identify whether this or that speech is a separate language or a dialect of a larger linguistic community. This is the case with Sangesari, spoken in the town of Sangesar in northern Iran and in several surrounding villages. Though Sangesari has traditionally been included in a group of dialects together with Surhei, Lasgerdi, Biyabunaki, Aftari, their speakers cannot understand each other. This gives grounds to claim that Sangesari is an independent Northwest Iranian language. |
Writing |
No writing, people write in Persian |
Close Contacts |
Persian, minor Iranian languages and dialects of the region |
Picture |
|
More info |
|
http://www.geocities.com/indoeurop/tree/iran/sangesari.html
|
|
Cyrus Shahmiri
Administrator
King of Kings
Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 08:43 |
As I said here, Sangesari is a Parthian language, it is interesting that the distance between Sangesar and Shahmirzad is less than 5 km but people of these small towns speak with two completely different languages (not dialects), Shahmirzadi is one of three Caspian languages, two other ones are Gilaki and Mazandarani.
|
|
|
Zagros
Emperor
Suspended
Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8792
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 08:57 |
That is indeed interesting and extraordinary, so Awramani and Sangesari must be pretty close to each other considering both are Pahlavi dialects, I wish a detailed study, by Iranians in Iran, was conducted on such languages.
Zaza (Dimli) is very close to Awramani too, both are Gorani languages.
I know that the Middle Persian language replaced Pahlavi as the official language in Iran when the Sassanids took power, are there any dialects of Middle Persian still surviving?
I think you should go on one of your famous trips, this time to Kermanshah and visit Pahveh and other historical sites, Cyrus.
|
|
Alparslan
Colonel
Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 517
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 11:20 |
As far as I know Pahlavi is the language of Sassanis.
Claiming that Pahlavi is a Kurdish language means that Sassanis were Kurds. Very radical indeed......
Do you think so?
|
|
Zagros
Emperor
Suspended
Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8792
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 12:32 |
No one is claiming that Pahlavi is Kurdish.
Kurds are an Iranic people, they are more rural than Persians and others, their language has been less affected by the change of time and this particular mentioned language (Awramani) is actually a dialect of Pahlavi.
(There are many Kurdish languages, only the Gorani group is Middle Iranian Pahlavi)
The Sassanians actually spoke Middle Persian which is different from Pahlavi.
Just for your information, it is recorded that Ardashir (first Sassanid King) was found among Kurdish shepherds by Papak, the Satrap of Parsa (Persis).
Edited by Zagros
|
|
Cyrus Shahmiri
Administrator
King of Kings
Joined: 07-Aug-2004
Location: Iran
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6240
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 14:19 |
Kermanshah is really one of the greatest places that I love to visit, there are many historical sites from various periods in this small province, for example as you know the famous relief and inscription of Sargon II is in Uraman!
|
|
|
Zagros
Emperor
Suspended
Joined: 11-Aug-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 8792
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 14:44 |
Also don't forget Bisotoon (Behistun) - Taghe Bostan - Temple of Anahita at Kangavar.
At the foot of Mount Bisotun, on the sheer cliff, there is a 200m x 40m surface shaved from the cliff face, this was going to apparently be the site of a great relief which did not come to fruition - the local legend has it that it was made by Farhad as part of his work for Shirin the legend lives on in song among the locals.
|
|
Shahanshah
Samurai
Joined: 11-Jul-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 121
|
Quote Reply
Posted: 13-Aug-2005 at 16:26 |
Originally posted by Zagros
information, it is recorded that Ardashir (first Sassanid King) was found among Kurdish shepherds by Papak, the Satrap of Parsa (Persis).
|
Thats just a silly tradition. thats not historically correct tho, it has never been proven. till then lets just leave at that. unless im really way of and it is proven .
anyway, because of that, some kurdish chauvisits think Ardeshir was a kurd. and think all sassanians were kurds. i will provide you with a link. later on.
its just a silly tradition, same with the story that cyrus was picked up by shepard blah blah blah.
|
King of Kings, The Great King, King of the world.
|
|