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The Holy Roman Empire and the German states
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Achilles View Drop Down
Pretorian
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Posts: 198 		  Quote Achilles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: The Holy Roman Empire and the German states
    Posted: 04-Jun-2006 at 22:45
I think you would be pretty correct. But you would also have to say the other giant German state was Prussia.
Der Erste hat den Tod,
Der Zweite hat die Not,
Der Dritte erst hat Brot.

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Posts: 28 		  Quote naav Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 04:15
Thank you very much everyone - really kind. Smile



Edited by naav - 05-Jun-2006 at 04:16
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Posts: 804 		  Quote Raider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 02:56
Originally posted by Maharbbal

As the emperor depended for the taxes on the approval of all, he was rarely able to get any money for the Empire and had to get satisfied with what he could raise on his own realms. Because of that the Emperors (though they tried very hard) never managed to turn the HRE into a modern state. To keep on ruling they had to ally with different state rulers within the HRE usually it was Bavaria.
Well, Sigismund of Luxemburg had ~50.000 golden forints yearly income from the whole empire, while from Hungary he had ~400 - 500.000. And he was famous of continous money problems. As Pl Engel said he invented how to run a state with a constant deficit.
 
All in all this datas show how the emperors depended from their own family sources.
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Posts: 1378 		  Quote Ikki Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 03:52
Originally posted by Achilles

I think you would be pretty correct. But you would also have to say the other giant German state was Prussia.


Right, but only after 1750, before that time, at XVI-XVII centuries, Austria was the first without doubt, and the second was disputed by Saxony and Bavaria, i think Smile
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Posts: 4221 		  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 08:47
Originally posted by Ikki

Originally posted by Achilles

I think you would be pretty correct. But you would also have to say the other giant German state was Prussia.


Right, but only after 1750, before that time, at XVI-XVII centuries, Austria was the first without doubt, and the second was disputed by Saxony and Bavaria, i think Smile
 
Before the mid 18th century, Prussia, Bavaria and Saxony were comparable in population.  Both Saxony and Bavaria were much more prosperous than the Prussian kingdom.
 
When Frederick II decided he would increase the wealth of his kingdom by taking Silesia from the Emperor, (no pretense of legality - this was the Age of Reason) and the army performed, Prussia became the second power in Germany.
 
As time went on, Bavaria became the third power during and after the Napoleonic Wars, and after the demise of HRE.....Until 1866.
 
 


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 06-Jun-2006 at 08:48
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Achilles View Drop Down
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Posts: 198 		  Quote Achilles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 10:31
but were Bavaria and Saxony ever at any point as powerful as Prussia was in the mid 1700's?

Edited by Achilles - 06-Jun-2006 at 10:32
Der Erste hat den Tod,
Der Zweite hat die Not,
Der Dritte erst hat Brot.

Fur immer frei und ungeteilt
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Posts: 4664 		  Quote rider Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 12:11
Well, Bavaria was quite rich, but I am not sure about Saxony... It was important, but that makes it kind of strong too, I guess..
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Posts: 4221 		  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 12:45
Originally posted by Achilles

but were Bavaria and Saxony ever at any point as powerful as Prussia was in the mid 1700's?
 
Saxony was more powerful than the Brandenburg state in the mid to late 17th century.  When in the 1670s Brandenburg was able to demonstrate military prowess, I think they were about equal in potential.
 
The Bavarians were actually quite a strong power from the 1620s until the War of Spanish Succession.  Maximillian Emanuel could field armies of up to 50,000 around 1700.  However, after Hochstadt, 1705, and the devastation of Bavaria by the Imperials to punish Max Emanuel for his French alliance, Bavaria was a spent force until the Napoeonic Wars.
 
By the 1750s only Austria in Germany was a rival to Prussia.  It is worth noting however, that Prussia never had the resources of the Austrians, and had to keep her campaigns as short as possible.  During the Seven Years War, Prussia came close to collapse and defeat as the intensity of the war ate up Prussian resources and money.  English subsidies kept them alive until Russia made peace.
 
 


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 06-Jun-2006 at 12:47
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Achilles View Drop Down
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Posts: 198 		  Quote Achilles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-Jun-2006 at 16:55
By the 1750s only Austria in Germany was a rival to Prussia.  It is worth noting however, that Prussia never had the resources of the Austrians, and had to keep her campaigns as short as possible.  During the Seven Years War, Prussia came close to collapse and defeat as the intensity of the war ate up Prussian resources and money.  English subsidies kept them alive until Russia made peace.

didn't know that. interesting
Der Erste hat den Tod,
Der Zweite hat die Not,
Der Dritte erst hat Brot.

Fur immer frei und ungeteilt
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Temujin View Drop Down
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Sirdar Bahadur

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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2006 at 15:28
don't forget Hanover. they were in personal union with Britain but still they alone were just as powerful as Bavaria and Saxony (see Great Northern and seven years war).
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Posts: 4221 		  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2006 at 16:51
Originally posted by Temujin

don't forget Hanover. they were in personal union with Britain but still they alone were just as powerful as Bavaria and Saxony (see Great Northern and seven years war).
 
That is a good point.  Throughout most of the 18th century (and after) Hanover was an important bridgehead on the mainland for Britain.  The Hanoverian army was a large and very professional army, and certainly fought well up through the Seven Years War.
 
Not sure of the population of the Hanoverian state.
 
 
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