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Emperor Barbarossa
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Topic: Pictish Language Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 18:25 |
I have read a bit about the Picts and Scotland, and I was wondering if anybody has any information on what type of language it was(P-Celtic, Q-Celtic, Germanic, or another type of language).
Edited by Emperor Barbarossa - 31-Aug-2006 at 20:08
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Socrates
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Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 19:42 |
Actually, it seems that their language wasn't Indo-European at all.It was probably one of the native European languages (pre IE)-similar to the lang. of Basques (?). However, there's a lot of open space when considering language and origin of Picts...
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Paul
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Posted: 31-Aug-2006 at 21:34 |
There's no reason to believe the Picts spoke a different language to the rest of Britain. A hundred years ago historians believed them to be some strange unique people, but those days are long gone and nobody sees them as anything else but regular Britains in everyway.
The real question is what language did the Britons speak. And the most modern idea is the tongue they spoke, similar to that of the Gauls, was a pre-indo-european tongue that developed in Europe in the Bronze age, possibly imported from western Anotolia by proto-indo-european speakers.
The word Pict itself derives from the Greek word Pretani (painted one) as does the word Britani (Briton). Roman mis-pronuciation of Greek turned one word into two.
Edited by Paul - 31-Aug-2006 at 21:35
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Socrates
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Posted: 01-Sep-2006 at 18:28 |
The word Pict itself derives from the Greek word Pretani (painted one) as does the word Britani (Briton). Roman mis-pronuciation of Greek turned one word into two.
I think Pretani is a version of Cruithin, which was the name Celts of Ireland used for the natives , who were probably of the the same stock as Picts.
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Paul
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Posted: 01-Sep-2006 at 19:19 |
Pretani and Cruithin don't really sound alike, unless Cruithin is pronounced very different from it's spelling.
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Goban
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Posted: 01-Sep-2006 at 21:15 |
Aren't there examples of the language that have survived within certain placenames? I think I've read this somewhere...
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Socrates
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Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 18:29 |
Originally posted by Paul
Pretani and Cruithin don't really sound alike, unless Cruithin is pronounced very different from it's spelling. |
I forgot to explain it: The Brits pronounced Cruithin as Pruithin which the Romans corrupted into Pretanni (or something similar).
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Paul
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Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 19:07 |
It was actually the Greeks who used the word Pretani and the Romans corrupted it to Britani and possibly Picts.
However, at that time the British certainly had no name or even concept of being a people. They would have had individual tribal names. Pretani was a probably the name of a single tribe in Scotland, the only one the Greeks knew the name of so they used for all Britons.
Cruithin seems to originate with Ptolemy in 150 bce, however Pretani with Pytheas in 330 bce. It's more likely Cruithin is a corruption of Pretani.
Cruithin, I can't seem to find the origin of. All
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AyKurt
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Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 10:28 |
The Pict's are usually assumed to be pre IE peoples of Northern Britain primarily because their culture was matrilineal instead of patrilineal. However linguistic evidence in place names and family names suggests it could be Brythonic (Welsh) or had Brythonic influence.
This would make sense considering to the south there was Ystradd Clyd (modern Strathclyde) and Gododdin (modern Lothians region) which were both Brythonic kingdoms.
An example is Aberdeen (fort on the Aber). Deen in Pictish is considered related to the Brythonic word Din meaning fort. Dundee (Fort on the river Dee), Dunedin (fort of Edin) the ancient Brythonic name for Edinburgh before it became Anglic and Dunbarton (Fort of the Britons) are examples of Brythonic names names in Scotland which has Din.
My guess is that as the linguistic and cultural flow of the Brythons spread among the native inhabitants of mainland Britain it gradually got weaker the further north it spread and was weakest in the Northern parts of modern Scotland which would explain why they were culturally different and had a weaker link with the Brythonic language.
All native people in Britain would have been genetically similar but language and culture would be affected by exposure. With the Pict's in the remote highland that exposure would have been lesser.
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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha
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Guests
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Posted: 08-Oct-2006 at 15:56 |
Was it the scoti , from ireland that, finaly, pushed, or joined up with the picts, to create scotland?
also i think the name britin, Land of Tin.mentioned by many ancient greeks,could be the origin of name for the isles, the phonecians were mining in cornwall, or the locals were mining it for them,more like.
also the old english language change ,F,P/, in english may have also been from the trade between these phonecians and the frisian people.apparently are F is from a semetic language.
father,Potter.
though the painted ones , seems the most likely.as for there language i have not seen much evidence to say they spoke a pre I/E language.
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