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Taliban - Were they tyrannical to women ?
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Vivek Sharma View Drop Down
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Taliban - Were they tyrannical to women ?
    Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 01:46
Originally posted by Maziar

All what i try to say is, that there were Pakis among Taliban. You agree? and i didn't misunderstand him (i hope), i know that he knows about Pakis member in Taliban, and i feel he doesn't like that someone say that. What i mean is, he knows the truth, but he won't accept someone talks about it. Maybe i am wrong, but after i have read Spartans post this idea came trough my mind.


I don't seem to understand how one can find fault with a perfectly factual statement as this.

Again i would say just one thing, Everbody knows who CREATED the taliban, Who TRAINED it, Who FINANCED it, Who MANAGED it, Who GUIDED it, WHERE was it trained, Who LED the STRATEGIES & FORMULATED their policies.
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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 03:46
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

Originally posted by TeldeInduz

Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

The whole world knows which are the countries where the women are least empowered & most exploited & also the cause of this. My thread was just to debate the state of affairs in a particular geography which is one of the most aggrieved.
 
If this is a reference to India & Pakistan, I can say with complete confidence that Pakistani women are more empowered and less exploited than Indian women Wink. For a start you could look politically.
 
Number of women in Indian parliament ('04) - 8.8% link
Number of women in Pakistani parliament ('04) = 21.6% link
 
In fact rank wise India comes in 104th and Pak a bit higher.
 


I reiterate, the whole world knows the truth. In India we dont force women to go out in the Burkha.
 
In fact, in Pakistan women can wear a Burkha, Hijab, or nothing on their head.
 
Here's one Pakistan woman politician who is breaking the law! Ouch 
 
 
 
More law breakers.
 
 
 
 
our law does'nt ask a raped woman to furnish four male eye witnesses  to prove her claim.
 
Neither does Pakistan's laws!


How many Pak women are allowed to participate in sports, beauty contests, How many pak women are at the top of corporate world. Show the % of educated pak women.
 
Pakistani women can compete in beauty contests as far as I know, Pakistan just doesnt officially particpate.
 
Sports-wise there's plenty, women's cricket, hockey, etc but the one I'll pick out -- Anoushka.
 
Anoushka Kachalo - youngest woman in the world to reach the North Pole.
 
Soccer is getting popular in Pakistan even with the women.
 
 
 
Women's football match in Islamabad

Corporate Pakistani women
 
A few I'll mention here..
Dr Shamshad Akhtar, Governor, State Bank of Pakistan
Jehan Ara, President Pasha, Pakistan Software Houses Association
Shahida Saleem, Chairperson FPCCI, Federation of Pakistan Chambers and Commerce & Industry
Sadia Khan, Head of Autosoft Dynamic
 
The list is pretty endless..just ask if you want more names. In fact currently your own Indian newspapers are admitting that Pakistani women form a bigger percentage of the IT workforce in Pakistan than India.
 
 
Dear telde, grow up. I admire your patriotism,  but learn to respect world opinion. The whole world cannot be wrong.
 
Indian opinion is not world opinion - neither is forum opinion world opinion, thankfully!


Edited by TeldeInduz - 15-Sep-2006 at 03:47
Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 04:38
And world opinion can be wrong.
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 04:59
What then is the Hudood law ?
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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 05:46
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

What then is the Hudood law ?
 
There is a topic on this in the forum. The Hudood Law requires 4 witnesses in order to get the Hadd penalty on a rapist. The penalty of Tazir (around 30 years prison) does not need 4 witnesses, and can be prosecuted under the Pakistan Penal Code - in fact this gives greater choice to the victim. All convicted rapists in Pakistan currently have been sentenced under Tazir without 4 witnesses in the trial.
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 06:01
Then why does Huddood always stay in the news. Even recently the hudood bill could not be passed but had to be changed to suit the hardliners.
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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 07:21
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma

Then why does Huddood always stay in the news. Even recently the hudood bill could not be passed but had to be changed to suit the hardliners.
 
The Hudood Bill is being passed, perhaps some changes will occur, but the Bill will be past. The important points of the Bill that wont be changed are
  • that women can be granted bail for minor offences
  • the victim or judge will be able to choose whether they want the trial to be prosecuted as Islamic (which requires 4 witnesses for  Hadd only but not Tazir) or through the Pakistan Penal Code (doesnt need 4 adult witnesses)
  • Section 10 of the Hudood Ordinance is removed so that Zina liable to Tazir is now not automatically charged on the complainant if a rape cannot be proved. 
  • adultery or "lewdness" trials can only be allowed to proceed if 4 adult witnesses come forward. 
4 witnesses has never been a requirement for proving rape - only to get a Hadd punishment. 
 
The problems with the Hudood Law originally were that both rape and adultery were major offences, and that the law didnt really distinguish between the two..but 4 witnesses was never a problem.


Edited by TeldeInduz - 15-Sep-2006 at 08:59
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Sep-2006 at 08:03
Thank You
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Posts: 28 		  Quote annechka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 13:56
this just in from Pakistan via BBC news.
 
 
Pakistan delays rape reform plans
 
Pakistan's government has delayed presenting a bill in parliament which would have reformed rape laws.

The bill would for the first time have allowed rapists to be tried under civil law as well as Islamic law.

comments?


Edited by annechka - 16-Sep-2006 at 13:58
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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 14:34
Originally posted by annechka

this just in from Pakistan via BBC news.
 
 
Pakistan delays rape reform plans
 
Pakistan's government has delayed presenting a bill in parliament which would have reformed rape laws.

The bill would for the first time have allowed rapists to be tried under civil law as well as Islamic law.

comments?
 
What's the hurry that a couple of weeks or months will make?..civil law, secular law, Tazir law, all the same really. the BBC is well known for getting things wrong on that regions issues. Channel 4 news is a lot better than that. Mush just needs to pass it to the select committee then to the lower house.  The article is also factually incorrect.
 


Edited by TeldeInduz - 16-Sep-2006 at 14:53
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Posts: 28 		  Quote annechka Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 22:19

Hurry?  a couple of weeks or months will make a big difference to a woman who has been raped.  Your comment sounds most cavalier.

 
How is the article factually incorrect TeldeInduz?
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Posts: 857 		  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Sep-2006 at 23:17
It's been discussed before
 
Originally posted by annechka

Hurry?  a couple of weeks or months will make a big difference to a woman who has been raped.  Your comment sounds most cavalier.

 
They might sound cavalier to you, only because you have a different understanding of the current law as me - rushing in the bill now isnt going to make much difference..based on two things
  • women awaiting Zina trials have been released
  • The original law never required 4 adult male witnesses to prove a rape. If a woman wanted her rapist sentenced to death then yes, she would need 4 witnesses and that is impossible in most cases. If 4 witnesses were not present, she still could get her rapist imprisoned for 25 years on the basis of her own testimony, DNA evidence, circumstantial evidence. 25 years in prison is more than what some rapists get in Western countries - the option of death is there if it can be proven - the working rape law in Pakistan is not the 4 witness one but the second one mentioned (secular). Getting the conviction is theoretically just as easy or difficult in the reformed law, what's different is the charge of adultery which is more difficult to prove, theoretically.
 
How is the article factually incorrect TeldeInduz?
 
The article is incorrect for a start in the way mentioned above - the working rape law in Pakistan before such a Bill is introduced has always allowed any sort of evidence in order to secure a prison sentence on a rapist..4 adult male witnesses requirement to secure a rape conviction is just misleading or incorrect however you want to look at it.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Sep-2006 at 16:59
Originally posted by annechka

Hurry?  a couple of weeks or months will make a big difference to a woman who has been raped.  Your comment sounds most cavalier.
 
How is the article factually incorrect TeldeInduz?
 
In the case of rape in Islamic societies, the male relatives - father, brothers, uncles, cousins -  of the victim will usually exact revenge (kill) the rapist and the rape case will never even be filed. The dead rapist's family may file a murder complaint but the authorities will not punish someone for murdering a rapist.
 
This is one of the reasons the occurrences of rape are so miniscule in Islamic countries - the community would condemn the rapist and his entire family for having brough shame upon himself, his family, and the extended community.
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Posts: 1775 		  Quote Vivek Sharma Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 01:36
Originally posted by gambino420

Originally posted by annechka

Hurry?  a couple of weeks or months will make a big difference to a woman who has been raped.  Your comment sounds most cavalier.
 
How is the article factually incorrect TeldeInduz?
 
In the case of rape in Islamic societies, the male relatives - father, brothers, uncles, cousins -  of the victim will usually exact revenge (kill) the rapist and the rape case will never even be filed. The dead rapist's family may file a murder complaint but the authorities will not punish someone for murdering a rapist.
 
This is one of the reasons the occurrences of rape are so miniscule in Islamic countries - the community would condemn the rapist and his entire family for having brough shame upon himself, his family, and the extended community.


Who sought the revenge killing in Mukhtar mai's case ?
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 14:16
Mr. Sharma, rape is far more common in Hindustan (India) than it is in Islamic societies. At least in Islamic countries, women can seek justice, but where does a lowcaste, untouchable woman turn when she is gangraped by highcaste men in Indian society? Does the story of Phoolan Devi, whose life story was told in the film, Bandit Queen, ring a bell?
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