Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Muslims in the USSR

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12
Author
Lmprs View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke


Joined: 30-Dec-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1869
  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Muslims in the USSR
    Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 02:04
Originally posted by Constantine XI

...embraced the idea of Russian racial superiority.

What do you have as a proof?

Back to Top
Constantine XI View Drop Down
Suspended
Suspended

Suspended

Joined: 01-May-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 5711
  Quote Constantine XI Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 02:21
Originally posted by Feanor

Originally posted by Constantine XI

...embraced the idea of Russian racial superiority.

What do you have as a proof?



In all honesty I learnt that back in high school and our history teachers accepted that as common established facts. Our high school text books said the same thing. Stalin's treatment of Georgia during the Civil War can be seen as proof that he had little loyalty to his home province.
Back to Top
Lmprs View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke


Joined: 30-Dec-2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1869
  Quote Lmprs Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 02:24
Originally posted by Constantine XI

In all honesty I learnt that back in high school and our history teachers accepted that as common established facts. Our high school text books said the same thing. Stalin's treatment of Georgia during the Civil War can be seen as proof that he had little loyalty to his home province.

No doubt that he was a cruel dictator, but that does not make him racist.


Back to Top
TheDiplomat View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 09-Aug-2004
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1988
  Quote TheDiplomat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Apr-2007 at 03:17
Originally posted by Feanor

Originally posted by axeman

Well there was constant discrimination against Muslims, central Asians, Caucasians in Soviet army..

Wasn't Stalin a Georgian?

 
Feanor,I think axeman  refers to the Muslim peoples of Caucasus
ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever!

Back to Top
Young Tatar View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 17-Apr-2007
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 23
  Quote Young Tatar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2007 at 09:22

TOP SECRET

STATE DEFENSE COMMITTEE
State Defense Committee Decree No. 5859ss

May 11, 1944
Moscow, the Kremlin

On the Crimean Tatars

  During the Patriotic War [World War II], many Crimean Tatars betrayed the Motherland,deserting Red Army units that defended the Crimea and siding with the enemy, joining volunteer army units formed by the Germans to fight against the Red Army; as members of German punitive detachments, during the occupation of the Crimea by German fascist troops, the Crimean Tatars particularly were noted for their savage reprisals against Soviet partisans, and also helped the German invaders to organize the violent roundup of Soviet citizens for German enslavement and the mass extermination of the Soviet people.

  The Crimean Tatars actively collaborated with the German occupation authorities, participating in the so-called "Tatar national committees," organized by the German intelligence organs, and were often used by the Germans to infiltrate the rear of the Red Army with spies and saboteurs.With the support of the Crimean Tatars, the "Tatar national committees," in which the leading role was played by White Guard-Tatar emigrants, directed their activity at the persecution and oppression of the non-Tatar population of the Crimea and were engaged in preparatory efforts to separate the Crimea from the Soviet Union by force, with the help of the German armed forces.

Taking into account the facts cited above, the State Defense Committee decrees that:

1. All Tatars are to be banished from the territory of the Crimea and resettled permanently as special settlers in the regions of the Uzbek SSR.  The resettlement will be assigned to the Soviet NKVD. The Soviet NKVD (comrade Beria) is to complete the resettlement by 1 June 1944.

2. The following procedure and conditions of resettlement are to be established:

a)  The special settlers will be allowed to take with them personal items, clothing, household objects, dishes and utensils, and up to 500 kilograms of food per family.

Property, buildings, outbuildings, furniture, and farmstead lands left behind will be taken over by the local authorities; all beef and dairy cattle, as well as poultry, will be taken over by the People's Commissariat of the Meat and Dairy Industries, all agricultural production by the USSR People's Commissariat of Procurement, horses and other draft animals by the USSR People's Commissariat of Agriculture, and breeding cattle by the USSR People's Commissariat of State Grain and Animal Husbandry Farms.

Exchange receipts will be issued in every populated place and every farm for the receipt of livestock, grain, vegetables, and for other types of agricultural production.

By 1 July this year, the USSR NKVD, People's Commissariat of Agriculture, People's Commissariat of the Meat and Dairy Industries, People's Commissariat of State Grain and Animal Husbandry Farms, and People's Commissariat of Procurement are to submit to the USSR Council of People's Commissars a proposal on the procedure for repaying the special settlers, on the basis of exchange receipts, for livestock, poultry, and agricultural production received from them.

 b)  ...

To facilitate the receipt of livestock, grain, and agricultural production from the special settlers, the USSR People's Commissariat of Agriculture (comrade Benediktov), USSR People's Commissariat of Procurement (comrade Subbotin), USSR People's Commissariat of the Meat and Dairy Industries (comrade Smirnov), and USSR People's Commissariat of State Grain and Animal Husbandry Farms (comrade Lobanov) are to dispatch the required number of workers to the Crimea, in coordination with comrade Gritsenko.

c)  The People's Commissariat of Railroads (comrade Kaganovich) is to organize the transport of the special settlers from Crimea to the Uzbek SSR, using specially formed trains, according to a schedule devised jointly with the USSR NKVD.  The number of trains, loading stations, and destination points are to be determined by the USSR NKVD.

Payment for the transport will be based on the rate at which the prisoners are transported;

d) To each train of special settlers, the USSR People's Commissariat of Public Health (comrade Miterev) is to assign, within a time frame to be coordinated with the USSR NKVD, one physician and two nurses, as well as an appropriate supply of medicines, and to provide medical and first-aid care to special settlers in transit;

e)  The USSR People's Commissariat of Trade (comrade Liubimov) will provide all trains carrying special settlers with hot food and boiling water on a daily basis.

To provide food for the special settlers in transit, the People's Commissariat of Trade is to allocate the quantity of food supplies indicated in Appendix No. 1.

3.  By 1 June of this year, the Secretary of the Central Committee of the Communist Party (Bolshevik) of Uzbekistan, comrade Iusupov, the Chairman of the Uzbek SSR Council of People's Commissars, comrade Abdurakhmanov, and the Uzbek SSR People's Commissar of Internal Affairs, comrade Kobulov, are to carry out the following steps in regard to the acceptance and settlement of the special settlers:

a)  To accept and settle within the Uzbek SSR 140 to 160 thousand special settlers -- Tatars, sent by the USSR NKVD from the Crimean ASSR.

The settlement of the special settlers will occur in state farm communities, existing collective farms, farms affiliated with enterprises, and in factory communities, for employment in agriculture and industry;

b)  To establish commissions in oblasts where the special settlers are resettled, consisting of the chairman of the oblast executive committee, secretary of the oblast committee, and chief of the NKVD administration, charging them with the implementation of all measures in connection with the acceptance and distribution of the newly arrived special settlers;

c)  To organize raion troikas, consisting of the chairman of the raion executive committee, secretary of the raion committee, and chief of the raion branch of the NKVD, charging them with preparation for the distribution and organization of the acceptance of the newly arrived special settlers;

d)  To arrange the automotive transport of the special settlers, mobilizing the vehicles of any enterprises or institutions for this purpose;

e)  To grant plots of farm land to the newly arrived special settlers and to help them build homes by providing construction materials;

f)  To organize special NKVD commandant's headquarters, to be maintained by the USSR NKVD, in the raions of settlement;

g)  By 20 May of this year, the Uzbek SSR Central Committee and Council of People's Commissars are to submit to the USSR NKVD (comrade Beria) a plan for the settlement of the special settlers in the oblasts and raions, indicating the destination points of the trains.

4.Seven-year loans of up to 5,000 rubles per family, for the construction and setting up of homes, are to be extended by the Agricultural Bank (comrade Kravtsov) to special settlers sent to the Uzbek SSR, in their places of settlement.

5.  Every month during the June-August 1944 period, equal quantities of flour, groats, and vegetables will be allocated by the USSR People's Commissariat of Procurement (comrade Subbotin) to the Uzbek SSR Council of People's Commissars for distribution to the special settlers, in accordance with Appendix No. 2.

Flour, groats, and vegetables are to be distributed free of charge to the special settlers during the June-August period, as repayment for the agricultural production and livestock received from them in the areas from which they were evicted.

6. To augment the automotive transport capacity of the NKVD troops, garrisoned in the raions of settlement in the Uzbek, Kazakh, and Kirgiz SSR's, the People's Commissariat of Defense (comrade Khrulev) is to provide 100 recently repaired "Willys"3 motor vehicles and 250 trucks during the May-June 1944 period.

7. By 20 May 1944, the Main Administration for the Transport and Supply of Petroleum and Petroleum Products (comrade Shirokov) is to allocate and supply 400 tons of gasoline to locations specified by the USSR NKVD, and 200 tons of gasoline are to be placed at the disposal of the Uzbek SSR Council of People's Commissars.

The supply of gasoline [for this purpose] is to be carried out inconjunction with a corresponding reduction of supplies to all other consumers.

8.  By 15 May of this year, the Main Supply Administration of the USSR Ministry of Forestry, USSR Council of People's Commissars (comrade Lopukhov), is to deliver 75,000 2.75-meter railroad car boards to the People's Commissariat of Railroads, using any means at its disposal.

9.  In May of this year, the People's Commissariat of Finance (comrade Zverev) is to transfer 30 million rubles from the reservefund of the USSR Council of People's Commissars to the USSR NKVD, for the implementation of special measures.

 

I. Stalin

Chairman, State Defense Committee

-----------------------------------------------------------------

 

cc:    Comrades Molotov, Beria, Malenkov, Mikoian, Voznesenskii,Andreev, Kosygin, Gritsenko, Iusupov, Abdurakhmanov, Kobulov (Uzbek SSR NKVD), Chadaev -- entire document; Shatalin, Gorkin, [illegible] Smirnov, Subbotin, Benediktov, Lobanov, Zverev,Kaganovich,  Miterev, Liubimov, Kravtsov, Khrulev, Zhukov, Shirokov, Lopukhov -- appropriate sections.

---------------------------

TRANSLATOR'S COMMENTS:

1.  Notation in upper left-hand corner:  "To be returned to the StateDefense Committee Secretariat (Part II).

2.  Typed along left edge of first page:  "Making copies or extracts of this decree is strictly prohibited."

3.  Willys-Overland developed and mass-produced a jeep model that was given to the Soviet Union during World War II.

"Independence and Freedom are my character."
Mustafa Kemal Atatürk

-----------------------------
Crimean Tatar Independence Movement
Back to Top
Young Tatar View Drop Down
Janissary
Janissary
Avatar

Joined: 17-Apr-2007
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 23
  Quote Young Tatar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2007 at 09:24
This is document of Crimean Tatar Massacre
"Independence and Freedom are my character."
Mustafa Kemal Atatürk

-----------------------------
Crimean Tatar Independence Movement
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 14:37
Originally posted by axeman

Originally posted by DukeC

 
Muslims made up an important part of the Soviet Union and even before the 1980s there was concern about how willing the 1/3 of the Red Army who were Muslim would be to fight for the state.
 
I'm not saying the Soviet Muslims were fundamentalists, but that movement played a part in the disintegration of the Soviet state.


Well there was constant discrimination against Muslims, central Asians, Caucasians in Soviet army. They were designated as "blacks", "churkas" and they weren't welcomed to join the fleet as it was reserved for "white" people. Don't know so much about air forces.

So in conclusion muslims formed small part of Soviet army, certainly not 1/3.
 
 
I'm sorry but this is BS. There were a lot of Muslims in Russian army especially from Caucasus, probably because of the warrior spirit and long military traditions it was very easy for them to fit in the Soviet Army.
 
Even the first president of Chechnia - Dudaev was the Airforce general in the Soviet Army and served in the Afghanistan. The same is true about recently killed president Maschadov, who was also a general in the Soviet Army.
 
Tens of thousands of Muslims were decorated with the Star of the Hero of the Soviet Union  (the most highest and prestigious Soviet military decoration) during WWII.
 
The recent trends of nationalism is a very new phenomenon in the Russian Society.
 
Muslims served in the USSR and Russian Army for centuries and very often were distinguished for their superior service.
 
 


Edited by Sarmat12 - 08-Jun-2007 at 04:08
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 14:57
Surprisingly, I would say that Islam was treated much better in the Imerial Russia than after the Communist Revolution in 1917.
 
Generally speaking Tsars didn't intervene with the religious issues of their Muslim subjects. Some emperors even sponsored Muslim medrese.
 
By WWI there were military Mullas in the Russian army for the needs of the Muslim soldiers.
 
After the Soviets came to power, it was kind of beneficial for nationalists of every kind including nationalists from the Muslim ehtnicities of the Russian Empire.
 
However Muslim clergy suffered greatly. Thousands of Mullas were killed and Mosques were destroyed. However, the same is true also about the Orthodox churches and clergy, Catholic Church etc.
 
That's why Russian muslims are very liberal. The people of Russia icluding Russians themselves do not have strong religious feelings. The religion in the Soviet Union has been continously prosecuted for more then 70 years.
 
Stalin prosecuted nations regardless their faith. There was prosecution of Germans, Koreans, Greeks. Poles, Ukranians, Baltic nations and many more. And after all the Russian people perhaps suffered most from his rule. Stalin by himself was  Georgian, but not Russian.
 
However, in some parts of the Soviet Union especially in Uzbekistan, Mountain regions of Tajikistan and Turkmenistan, some of the local people were able to keep their Muslim beliefs strong.
 
Modern Russian Muslims are indeed very liberal. Drinking of alchohol and eating pork is very common. A very few ethhic Russian (about 2-3 thousands) converted to Islam, while at the same time much more ethnic Muslims (according to some sources) converted to Orthodox Christianity, Protestantism etc.
 
So most of these muslims are just "formal muslims," "muslims on paper." The same is true however about the Russian Orthodoxes, who visit the church once in a couple of years.
 
 


Edited by Sarmat12 - 08-Jun-2007 at 04:10
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Roberts View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

aka axeman

Joined: 22-Aug-2005
Location: Riga
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1138
  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 15:42
Originally posted by Sarmat12

 
I'm sorry but this is BS. There were a lot of Muslims in Russian army especially from Caucas, probably because of the warrior spirit and long military traditions it was very easy for them to fit in the Soviet Army.

Remember Stalin's persecutions against Chechens for example.
No doubt that there were lot of Caucasians in SU army, but certainly muslims weren't 1/3.
And speaking about discrimination I was mainly referring to the situation in fleet.


Even the first president of Chechnia - Dudaev was the Airforce general in the Soviet Army and served in the Afghanistan. The same is true about recently killed president Maschadov, who was also a general in the Soviet Army.

Sure, but they didn't serve in the fleet.

 

Tens of thousands of Muslims were decorated with the Star of the Hero of the Soviet Union  (the most highest and prestigious Soviet military decoration) during WWII.



And even greater number of non muslims, but thats not the point, since SU was officially atheist.



The recent trends of nationalism is a very new phenomenon in the Russian Society.



I doubt, there was a policy of Russification in Russian empire at the end of 19th century.
The same stuff applied under SU policy of "internationalism".


Muslims served in the USSR and Russian Army for centuries and very often were distinguished for their superior service.


That is vague generalization. Some examples please? Nothing other than Tatar cavalry of Ivan Grozny 16th c. army comes into my mind.


Edited by axeman - 07-Jun-2007 at 15:44
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2007 at 16:54
Originally posted by axeman

Originally posted by Sarmat12

 
I'm sorry but this is BS. There were a lot of Muslims in Russian army especially from Caucas, probably because of the warrior spirit and long military traditions it was very easy for them to fit in the Soviet Army.

Remember Stalin's persecutions against Chechens for example.
No doubt that there were lot of Caucasians in SU army, but certainly muslims weren't 1/3.
And speaking about discrimination I was mainly referring to the situation in fleet.


Even the first president of Chechnia - Dudaev was the Airforce general in the Soviet Army and served in the Afghanistan. The same is true about recently killed president Maschadov, who was also a general in the Soviet Army.

Sure, but they didn't serve in the fleet.

 

Tens of thousands of Muslims were decorated with the Star of the Hero of the Soviet Union  (the most highest and prestigious Soviet military decoration) during WWII.



And even greater number of non muslims, but thats not the point, since SU was officially atheist.



The recent trends of nationalism is a very new phenomenon in the Russian Society.



I doubt, there was a policy of Russification in Russian empire at the end of 19th century.
The same stuff applied under SU policy of "internationalism".


Muslims served in the USSR and Russian Army for centuries and very often were distinguished for their superior service.


That is vague generalization. Some examples please? Nothing other than Tatar cavalry of Ivan Grozny 16th c. army comes into my mind.
 
Here is a long article about the service of Muslim Bashkir in Russian Imperial Army:
 
 
Bashkir is only one of many Muslims nations serving in the army.
 
Here is a part about Ingushs serving in the famous "Wild Division" (comprised only from Muslims Chirkassians), one of the best Cavalry troops in the Russian army during WWI it aso talks about their service in other campaigns like the last Russo-Turkish war.
 
The wild division is actually a very famous topic in Russian history of the period of WWI and the civil war. However, I didn't find a lot of sources in English.   : (
 
 
There are a lot of sources in Russian, but it won't work out for the participants of this forum.
 
By saying that Muslims were awarded the Heros' Medal I meant that they were not discriminated and their role in WWII is particularly notable.
 
Of course, since the majority of the inhabitants of the Soviet Union were non muslims the number of non muslims decorated was bigger.
 
There were indeed sometimes policies of Russification which generally speaking were not succesful and the indigenous people were able to keep their differences and religion. In fact, Soviet government was much more succesful in the Russification in the great part because of the destruction of the religious institutions.
 
Muslims of course didn't form 1/3 of the Russian army. But I would say a considerable part of it was formed of Muslims.
 
You say Muslims were not allowed to serve in the Russian fleet, Huh ?
 
Recently Tatars (who are Muslims) published the whole book about their contribution to the Russian and Soviet Navy, beginning from the Peter the first until now.
 
Unfortunately, it is in Russian.
 
In English the name sounds like: Tatars in the service of the Fatherland. Pages of the history of the Russian (Military) Navy.
 
You can buy it here:
 
 
So, it looks like you base your posts on the unchecked rumors.
 
And do not use the word Caucasian, you confuse the English speaking readers of this forum. Caucasian in English basically means a White Person or a person of Europeoid race. Basically all the Europeans are Caucasians (for an English speaker).
 
If you want to refer to the ehtnicities of Caucasus Mountains' region use other term, like nations of Caucasus region, Chirkassians etc.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 07-Jun-2007 at 17:37
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
Roberts View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

aka axeman

Joined: 22-Aug-2005
Location: Riga
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1138
  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 02:31
Originally posted by Sarmat12

Here is a long article about the service of Muslim Bashkir in Russian Imperial Army:
 
 
Bashkir is only one of many Muslims nations serving in the army.
 
Here is a part about Ingushs serving in the famous "Wild Division" (comprised only from Muslims Chirkassians), one of the best Cavalry troops in the Russian army during WWI it aso talks about their service in other campaigns like the last Russo-Turkish war.
 
The wild division is actually a very famous topic in Russian history of the period of WWI and the civil war. However, I didn't find a lot of sources in English.   : (
 
 
There are a lot of sources in Russian, but it won't work out for the participants of this forum.


Well I am not denying that muslims served in Russian imperial armies, anyhow they were tiny minority in army.
 

You say Muslims were not allowed to serve in the Russian fleet, Huh ?


I didn't say that they weren't allowed to serve. My point was that there was a discrimination against them, at least in 80ties, maybe even earlier.
My source of information was an old interview with current Latvia prime minister who during the 80ties served in Soviet Union black sea fleet.


Recently Tatars (who are Muslims) published the whole book about their contribution to the Russian and Soviet Navy, beginning from the Peter the first until now.
 
Unfortunately, it is in Russian.
 
In English the name sounds like: Tatars in the service of the Fatherland. Pages of the history of the Russian (Military) Navy.
 
You can buy it here:
 
 

The book's title sounds very suspicious, is that an academic research?
And what does "Fatherland" imply to - Tatarstan or Russia?


And do not use the word Caucasian, you confuse the English speaking readers of this forum. Caucasian in English basically means a White Person or a person of Europeoid race. Basically all the Europeans are Caucasians (for an English speaker).


Hmm, I though that Caucasian only means white person in USA. As far as I know in UK this term refers to people from Caucasus region.



Edited by axeman - 08-Jun-2007 at 02:32
Back to Top
Roberts View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain

aka axeman

Joined: 22-Aug-2005
Location: Riga
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1138
  Quote Roberts Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 02:31
double post,
damn there are serious problems with code. Can't edit anything. Mods plz clean up. thx in advance.


Edited by axeman - 08-Jun-2007 at 02:36
Back to Top
Sarmat View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 31-May-2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3113
  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2007 at 03:44
TO Respectful Axeman,
 
Your posts contradict each other; before you wrote that nothing comes to your mind about the service of Muslims in the Russian army except the times of Ivan the Terrible.
 
Now you say that you didn't deny that they served.
 
Before you were saying that Muslims didn't serve in the Navy now you say that they were only discriminated.
 
Your question about Tatarstan is a little bit strange. Do you really think Tatarstan has a navy? Of course it's the Russian Navy.
Tatars are one of the many nations living in the Russian Federation, so it's natural that they can refer to Russia as their Fatherland as well.
 
The book is academic, written by a Tatar professor.
 
Muslims were not a tiny minority in the Army. They were a NOTABLE minority very often distinguished for their service. Please don't ask me to provide sources again. I did provide enough. However, now it appears that you comments are vague. So. please provide the source if you want to support you point.
 
You are right, Oxford definition of English language gives 2 definitions of Caucasian. However, Caucasians as people of the Europeoid race is usually the first definition that comes to the mind of an English speaker.
 
Much less people, usually those familiar with the subject, use Caucasian specifically for calling people only from Caucasus region.
Σαυρομάτης
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <12

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.053 seconds.