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Boreasi
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Topic: The Neanderthals - once again Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 18:28 |
The emerging fate of the Neandertals
For nearly a century, anthropologists
have been debating the relationship of Neandertals to modern humans.
Central to the debate is whether Neandertals contributed directly or
indirectly to the ancestry of the early modern humans that succeeded
them. As this discussion has intensified in the past decades, it
has become the central research focus of Erik Trinkaus, Ph.D.,
professor of anthropology at Washington University in St. Louis.
Trinkaus has examined the earliest modern humans in Europe, including
specimens in Romania, Czech Republic and France. Those specimens, in
Trinkaus' opinion, have shown obvious Neandertal ancestry.
In an article appearing the week of April 23 in the
Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, Trinkaus has brought
together the available data, which shows that early modern humans did
exhibit evidence of Neandertal traits. "When you look at all of the well dated and diagnostic early
modern European fossils, there is a persistent presence of anatomical
features that were present among the Neandertals but absent from the
earlier African modern humans," Trinkaus said. "Early modern Europeans
reflect both their predominant African early modern human ancestry and
a substantial degree of admixture between those early modern humans and
the indigenous Neandertals."
This analysis, along with a number of considerations of human
genetics, argues that the fate of the Neandertals was to be absorbed
into modern human groups. Just as importantly, it also says that the
behavioral difference between the groups were small. They saw each
other as social equals.
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 22:41 |
So was it only Europeans with whom the Neandertals are supposed to have mixed? Did the Neandertals exist outside Europe?
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Maharbbal
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Posted: 29-Apr-2007 at 23:12 |
I thought the resemblance between early Europeans and Nehanderthal had been considered as a case of co-evolution (same causes, same effects). DNA tests have been run and seem to have found that Neandertal was not related to modern humans (but it has been widely contested).
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Paul
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Posted: 30-Apr-2007 at 05:04 |
I think they did a study of major human genes and found no connection, but haven't ruled out a minor connection.
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Tar Szernd
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Posted: 30-Apr-2007 at 07:53 |
Originally posted by Constantine XI
So was it only Europeans with whom the Neandertals are supposed to have mixed? Did the Neandertals exist outside Europe? |
There are some caves in Izrael and Syria, and some in East Ukraine or South Russia or Kazahstan(??), maybe Sungir or something like that; in that cave a nead. man was burried.
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Leonardo
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Posted: 01-May-2007 at 04:41 |
Originally posted by Constantine XI
So was it only Europeans with whom the Neandertals are supposed to have mixed? Did the Neandertals exist outside Europe? |
Neanderthal man range:
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 01-May-2007 at 04:49 |
Thankyou Leondardo. It would be interesting if Neandertals were found
to have mixed with homo sapiens in only specific geographic regions,
perhaps it would explain phenotypical differences between homo sapiens
in one area and homo sapiens in another.
Of course with proof that Neandertals actually mixed with and
contributed to the genetic makeup of today's humans, this is all pure
speculation.
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Leonardo
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Posted: 01-May-2007 at 05:21 |
Curiously enough the regions where Neanderthal man lived are the same where you can mainly find the so called "caucasian race"
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Constantine XI
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Posted: 01-May-2007 at 05:45 |
Imagine what Nazi ethnographers would make of such a finding, they
would probably try to claim that the "white" race is superior owing to
the fusion of the larger Neandertal brain with the more creative homo
sapien - resulting in today's caucasians
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Paul
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Posted: 01-May-2007 at 08:52 |
Working out European migration history.
Cro-Magnon Man who would have mated with the Neanderthals would have been joined in Europe by a later groups of migrants in far superior numbers from the Steppes migrating via the Ukraine. These would have pushed the Neanderthals/Cro-Magnons and Hybrids westwards.
Later another groups of migrants would have arrived from the middle east pushing the Ukrainians out of eastern and central Europe. Further pressing the Neanderthals/Cro-Magnons and Hybrids to the fringes of Europe.
Then the ice age would have kicked in. The Ukrainians would have summer on the Riviera and northern Spain. The Middle Easterners in Northern Italy and the Balkans. The Neanderthals/Cro-Magnons and Hybreds would have taken up residence with the Ukrainians and they would have drunk cheap Spanish plonk, organised club 18-30 hols to Benidorm and before you know all been related to one another.
After the Ice Age the Ukrainian/Neanderthals/Cro-Magnons and Hybrids would have moved North and about 10,000 ya moved to the UK. About 8,000 the English channel filled-up and they were stranded.
These few bunch of Ukrainian/Neanderthals/Cro-Magnons and Hybreds would then despite foreign invasion, hostile climate, plague and war, through hard work and endeavr establish the largest empire the world's ever seen.
Some of these Ukrainian/Neanderthals/Cro-Magnons and Hybreds would then venture out into the empire and populate it spreading civilisation and enlightenment throughout. One such country blessed by this fate would be America.
In a few short generations the Ukrainian/Neanderthals/Cro-Magnons and Hybreds migrants to America would branch out and form their own country and 220 odd years later they would elect their very own president.
Hmm..... George Bush does has very pronounced brows..........
Edited by Paul - 01-May-2007 at 08:57
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elenos
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Posted: 14-Jun-2007 at 20:30 |
I have always understood the Neanderthals as being built along the lines
of football players, boxers, or wrestlers. Their bones were denser than those
of modern man means they couldnt possibly swim. Some say their brains were
also dense. That is cruel for they evolved to suit their environment in robust
activities like big game hunting. They adapted to the early European conditions,
where the big game mostly lived. They died out at the beginning of the last
major Ice Age for they were caught out by severe climate change.
Like the animals they hunted they could not go too far north or freeze,
or too far south or boil. In the warmer southern climate a more gracile species
of human arose, who did not rely on mammoth chops for dinner and even ate grass
for supper. This was modern man and we still eat grass as wheat, rice, barley
etc. The human appendix is said to come from a time when we ate grass in a
more unprocessed state.
We graciles began to extend northwards following the grasslands and the
protein packed game that fed on it. We ran into the Neanderthals and turf wars
erupted over hunting grounds. They were much stronger, but not as smart and were
forced further north into the onset of the Ice Age where no type of human had any
chance of survival. Pockets of former tribes remained in the south but the genetic
pools of breeding families were pushed too far apart to make a comeback and so
they died out.
It is not out of the question to suggest some of the Neanderthal race may
have evolved a more gracile form quite apart from their more primitive brothers
and sisters. Then the out of Africa humans obviously
did not want to stay where they began. It could be suggested the majority of
Neanderthals did once live in a lost land in the North Sea area, one of the
largest hunting grounds in the world before it sank making any evidence of
their long inhabitation unavailable. The coming of the Ice Age forced northern
evolved humans southwards into the inhabitation of the swamps and forests of Europe before it was
covered with glaciers, but the Southern evolved types were moving northwards
making clashes inevitable.
Would they have bred together? Perhaps, but humans are most sensitive to
smell in gaining sexual arousal. Different forms of diet and toilet behaviour
were used as an attraction to the act. In Pre-ice-age days they knew they were
different for their physical shape was obvious. The types of human would have
been more inclined to fight, or better still stay away from each other, rather
than make love. Then about physical shape, if the Neanderthals were naturally
stronger that means their sexual organs were that much larger and having
inter-racial sex would have been uncomfortable and not very satisfying.
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Desperado
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Posted: 19-Sep-2007 at 09:40 |
Am i not a man, am I not a brother?
Reconstruction of a Neanderthal made from the cast of the skull (here on the left) which was discovered on the site called La Ferrassie in Dordogne.
No offence Ronnie!
The right picture is a reconstruction of the Gibraltar neanderthal child. Some suggest that the gene of the red hair (and probaly blonde) as well as other characteristics of the modern human came from the neanderthal population.
An interesting article on autism and other various diseases, probably a product of not so succesfull neanderthal/sapiens mixing
Homo Sapiens VS Homo ehhhhh, Neanderthalensis???
(No that's not reconstruction, this is Nikolai Valuev, the first Russian professional heavyweight boxing champion and the former holder of the WBA title between December 17, 2005 and April 15, 2007.
The mixing of Neanderthals and Sapienses DID occure at least in several places, that is a fact, confirmed by the archaeological findings, the DNA analysis didn't yet completely denyed the possibility of a fertile offspring.
It's more likely that the Neanderthals are victims not of a prehistoric genocide commited by their Homo Sapiens cousins or the last Ice Age, but of the 20 century "Al from Africa(and at once)" theory. Initially he was dehumanised to a level that prevented him to walk upright, to speak, to produce advanced weapons and art as the Sapiens - now this is admited wrong. It's even not clear whether it's Homo Neanderthalensis or Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis. The neanderthal and sapiens polpulations were never completely isolated from one another and lived side by side for many thousand years in the Middle East. What is for sure is that the battle of "All from Africa" and the Multiregional hypothesis will continue.
Edited by Desperado - 19-Sep-2007 at 09:52
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Desperado
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Posted: 19-Sep-2007 at 10:08 |
Originally posted by elenos
Then about physical shape, if the Neanderthals were naturally
stronger that means their sexual organs were that much larger and having
inter-racial sex would have been uncomfortable and not very satisfying.
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Yes, the neanderthals were stronger than the modern Homo Sapiens, but the contemporary early Cromagnons wers just as robust and had a higher stature btw.
About their reproductive organs: the strenght of the animal isn't connected with their size: an example male gorilla vs male chimpanzee-the chimps are better armed below the waist
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Justinian
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Posted: 20-Sep-2007 at 18:34 |
Ever since I first heard of this theory about Neanderthals being absorbed into the human gene pool I have not given it much thought. It makes sense and if you look at some modern humans, they look just like reconstructions of neanderthals. That russian boxer sure does, that actor Ron Pearlman I think his name is, the facial structure is remarkably similar. Especially that boxer, he's not bald and he has more hair on his back than his head.
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Desperado
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Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 19:02 |
Yes, Ron Pearlman has some archaic features.
The two left pictures are from his participation in Jean-Jacques Annaud's "Quest for Fire" where the older hypothesis of mixing is present.
It is posibble, that the common features of Sapiens and Neanderthalensis are a product of co-evolution - however the sapiens populations outside the proposed N. habitat didn't develope such features, despite the common environment. As far south-east we go on the Eurasian continent, the N. features weaken.
Another strange thing is that the remains of neanderthals not always predate that of the sapienses in the same areas. For example in the Middle East, comparing the Tabun/Amud neanderthals with Shkul and Qafzeh sapineses:
The proposed dating:
Here are the key features of Homo Neanderthalensis anatomy:
Ofcourse there're no "standart" sapiens and neanderthal individuals, in the same skeleton a neanderthal and sapiens features can coexist. On the pics are shown the extreme forms of the both types.
The source is Roger Lewin's "Human evolution",3rd edition, 2005.
Edited by Desperado - 22-Sep-2007 at 05:02
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Posted: 11-Oct-2007 at 01:14 |
I think that conventional scientific opinion, based on genetic analysis, is that while Homo Neanderthalensis was the original human species inhabiting Europe and they co-existed for thousands of years with Homo Sapiens (who arrived at a somewhat later date), there was little interbreeding or genetic admixture. Sapiens (known as Cro-Magnon Man) outcompeted Neanderthalensis, and the neanderthals eventually became extinct. Cro-Magnon Man (Homo sapiens) is considered the only ancestor of modern humans.
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Adalwolf
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Posted: 14-Oct-2007 at 21:48 |
What exactly is the difference between Cro Magnon and modern man (homo sapiens vs homo sapiens sapiens)?
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Desperado
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Posted: 15-Oct-2007 at 15:41 |
From anthropological point of view the Homo Sapiens Fossilis (incl. Cro-Magnon) and Recens are identical (from 40000 onward ). A little bit strange are the Comb Capelle Man (some "primitive" Neanderthal features) and is sometimes refered as Homo sapiens aurignaciensis, Brunn-Przedmost-CroMagnon (again probably Neanderthal features are present, smaller stature) and the famous findings from Grimaldi (had some features characteristic for nowadays negroid race which distinguishes them from the other Cro-Magnon findings, smaller stature - 160cm). In general the Cro-Magnons were more robust than most modern humans and had greater brain and stature.
Dal people from Dalecarlia (now Dalarna, Sweden) and the Guanches of the Canary Islands, probably represent a relatively pure Cro-Magnon stock, but the current European population has little to do with these (West-European Cro-Magnon, Neanderthal and hybrids) people.
Edited by Desperado - 15-Oct-2007 at 15:51
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Tyranos
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Posted: 15-Oct-2007 at 17:20 |
Cromagnons/Brunn weren't Neanderthal nor such features belong solely to that species, thats the problem with labeling brow-ridges and such as "Neanderthal", cause it was seen as primitive. Unfortunately you cannot go by anthropologists alone sadly, because they made many bad habits of linking traits dubbed "robust" and 'archaic ", to Negroids, Mongoloids Australoid and Neanderthals. You had John Beddoe in the late 19th century calling Scottish and Irish, Negroids because they overabundance of Cromagnon traits according to him, while Anglo-Saxon's(modern English) were the most evolved. And you had Carleton Coon claiming the Cromagnons were evolved Neanderthals, and separate from the Mediterranean and its depigmented offshoot, the Nordic. So scientific racism exists and still exists. Just looking at some of those reconstructions, just shows the politics and stupidity involved.
There is no genetic or true physical evidence of inter-breeding between Neanderthals and Cromagnons(modern man), though some scientists continue to push this, they also want to make the Neanderthal more like us, instead of the ape-like versions we were treated to in the past, so the effort to humanized them can be seen.
I think they were sub-branch that coexisted alongside us, parallel though separate species.
Edited by Tyranos - 15-Oct-2007 at 17:23
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Desperado
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Posted: 15-Oct-2007 at 19:51 |
Originally posted by Tyranos
There is no genetic or true physical evidence of inter-breeding between Neanderthals and Cromagnons(modern man), though some scientists continue to push this, they also want to make the Neanderthal more like us, instead of the ape-like versions we were treated to in the past, so the effort to humanized them can be seen.I think they were sub-branch that coexisted alongside us, parallel though separate species.
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The only certain thing is that Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons co-existed for several thousand years in the same areas.
What's wrong with the reconstructions?
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