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Pinochet: Hero or Villain? |
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 Topic: Pinochet: Hero or Villain?Posted: 02-Nov-2008 at 12:59 |
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It may be. However, the killing of Letelier was one of the first terrorist attacks on American territories plotted by foreign agents. If the U.S. had stopped the DINA right away, at the moment that crime happened, perhaps many further terrorist attack on U.S. soild would had been avoided. Including 11S. The U.S. preffered to look the other way around, which was a great mistake. In Chile, in recent years, those criminals had been finally punished.
Even with all the problems my country had at that time, democracy was still alive. It was pretty obvious Allende had to go, but most people preffered the democratic way: a plebiscite. The coup was unnecesary at that time. Allende wasn't Fidel Castro nor Hugo Chavez. He was a left wing idealist with democratic ideas, so much so that its own people didn't share what he though.
That's not quite true. Many foreigners, including Cubans and Americans as well, were killed during the coup. The militaries didn't care for human rights, actually.
I don't know if you knew, but is precisily the socialist party which govern today the free-market oriented democracy in Chile. Michelle Bachelet, our President, is socialist and lived her exile in the East Germany. Even more, the former dictator of East Germany got assilum in Chile after the wall fall down.
That wasn't a problem of Allende but a phenomena that happened during all the XX century in Chile. Blamming Allende for urban planning is nonsense, when we realize the growing of cities as Santiago was cahotic, and still are in the process of rationalization.
That's true. However, not all militaries were traitors to Allende. General Prat, the commander in chief, was killed to defend the traditional role of the army in a democratic government.
Prussian traditions have a long history in Chilean army that aren't related to Pinochet or the Nazis. Our army has always been ready to protect our borders against the banana countries and Chavez-like adventurers that encircle us. People used to identify with the army up to the time Pinochet arrived.
More siniester is a hidden relations between German Nazis and Right wingers that existed behind some of the most extremist tendencies of the right. There, there are many things to tell.
Absolutely nonsense. The coup was bloody. Never heared about the bodies floating on the Mapocho river? Never heared that the house of Allende was bombarder, beside the House of Government.
When I was young I used to heared machine guns firings quite often. Don't tell me the coup was peaceful to me. I witness it.
People started to hate Pinochet the first day. He was the most hatted figure in Chile has far as I know. I would had killed him myself if I could. You really can't understand how much we hated that bastard.
Allende is remembered as a mediocre president but as a man that died for his ideals. In that sense he is a lot higher in our prefferences that that monster of Pinochet.
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Posted: 02-Nov-2008 at 13:19 |
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Chile is a democratic country since the XIX century! Democracy is not the legacy of Pinochet, but just was restored after those dark years.
That's true. Pinochet just follow the orders of the U.S., all based on the national security doctrine of that country. The U.S. was the promotor of fascism across the hemisphere. That country believed that puting nazis on power in our countries will stop communism from spreading.
That's why many Latinos still don't forgive the U.S.
That's absolute nonsense. Chile is today several times richer than in times of Allende. Today we have a surplus in our economy and our country has been erased from the list of those that require international humanitary help.
There was a revolution in economics propulsed by the fascist regime, but it wasn't the idea of the militaries.The idea came from a group of technocrats that used the militaries for theirs own goals and that implanted a free-market economy in the country.
Now, the fact that all the democratic-leftist governments had kept the free-market economy on place is explained very simple: it works.
Our per capita GDP is one of the highest on the region and keep growing.
Yes, there is still a long way to go. But never in the history of my country there has been such a large middle class as today.
That's not true. Or at least, we should wait and see what do you mean by poor. If you compare and average Cuban and a Chilean,the later would look like a rich man. In fact, in Santiago, for example, a city of six millions there are one million cars!
People hate Pinochet not because is poor but because the dictator was a criminal.
Another imprecision. If someone help Chile to break free from the United States he was,believe or not, the dictator. He was the one that openned markets away from the U.S..A tactic that today is standard in Chile and that allows us to not depend of that powerfull but dangerous neighbour of the north.
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Posted: 02-Nov-2008 at 13:25 |
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That graph is actually correct. The economical reforms impossed by Buchi and others changed this country. Most of the development though, happened after Chile recovered its democracy in the 90s.
It is too bad,though, that such tragical events were the only way to change the old-fashioned state-controlled economy that was preffered by most ideologist in Chile and around the world.
Today Chile is a lot richer than in the past, but we still had problems that have to be solved.
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Blueglasnost
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Joined: 01-Nov-2008 Location: France Online Status: Offline Posts: 0 |
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Posted: 02-Nov-2008 at 14:05 |
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It definitely was the case when Reagan got into office as of 1980, when he thrashed Carter by quite a landslide, also... You do not necessarily have to gather a majority of voters in France, actually it entirely depends on turnout (which is not always that high). Still, we cannot compare Chile with the US and Britain, and their long democratic (albeit flawed) traditions.
About the graph, I made the case for an early surge during Pinochet's regime (whose atrocity I am not questioning, like you, I regret it had to unfold like this to put a backward economy back on track), the growth sped up as democracy arrived for sure, after all the world history has proved the most democratic countries to be the most thriving of all, bar some abnormalities like Nazi Germany or Communist China (whose economic openness is likely to lead to democratization).
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Posted: 02-Nov-2008 at 15:22 |
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In Chile democracy was before Pinochet, and after him as well, based on the Presidential regime. We do believe in direct democracy where a person mean a vote, and we don't like parlamentarian regimes where the Primer minister is selected by the council of the chosen ones, rather than by the people.
The problem with presidential regimes is that some presidents want to be in power forever (as Chavez in Venezuela, for instance). We solved that problem in Chile having very short presidential terms without reelections. Our presidents used to be 6 years on power. Today they can be just 4, without consecutive reelections allowed.
Economical models are only partially related to political regimes. Many dictators promote communist economics, but other have pushed free-markets and industrialization (Taiwan, Singapore, Hitler in germany, Mussolini in Italy, Franco in Spain, etc.) On the other hand, I really doubt China, for instance, never becomes democratic just because the good will of the communist party. That party don't need to be democratic and only a coup will change chinese situation.
It is amazing that the United States and Europe, that fought so hard against socialist Russia, helped Communist China to develop. It is amazing they don't realize what kind of monster they have helped to build.
Edited by pinguin - 02-Nov-2008 at 15:24 |
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Lipovan87
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Joined: 28-Oct-2008 Location: Minnesota Online Status: Offline Posts: 28 |
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Posted: 02-Nov-2008 at 16:32 |
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That was one of the few assassinations conducted on US soil. There had been a few terrorist attempts by Cuba just after the Bay of Pigs but those were stopped before they could be carried out. The assassination should not be confused with a terrorist attack as the purpose was simply to kill him and not to provoke a terrified reaction. It was a simple car bomb near a traffic circle not far from the Romanian embassy. If the intent was to intimidate diplomats, then perhaps it might have been a terrorist incident but alarming the policymakers of other countries does not seem to have been the intent. While there was a plebiscite promised, the question was if it would be rigged or if it would be obeyed. The mobs roving the countryside could garner a number of votes that ways. Allende himself might have desired to adhere to the plebiscite himself but he had even more radical supporters in the Party who might manipulate things. Acting before the plebiscite was a gamble that it was either fraudulent designed to garner respectability for an even more radical course of action. The coup plotters also understood that another re-organization was planned for the military to try to prevent a coup. The timeline of interest for the plotters seems to have been partially their own power within the military.
I thought that most of the dead foreigners were given a deadline of a few days to leave and refused or that they had been engaged in attacks against the military or police. Please explain, this is a minor point of interest for me.
I thought the radicalism of the Allende years soured even most of the leadership about hard core Socialism. The fear of Pinochet's police forced the Party to tone down its views and the influx of opponents of the government brought a new ideological wave that allowed reformist members to reinvent themselves as democrats.
I thought the process was speeded up substantially by Allende's toleration of the mobs in the countryside (driving farmers and farm workers to the cities) and by building state housing for them surrounding the cities. While migrations from rural areas happen with industrialization, the selection of housing areas for them is not often part of it unless the urban planners want to make a social impact. An example might be the Shah's planned redesign of Tehran's neighborhoods to isolate traditionalist based opposition in another part of town. |
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Human error is a certainty, the location of it is not.
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Lipovan87
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Joined: 28-Oct-2008 Location: Minnesota Online Status: Offline Posts: 28 |
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Posted: 02-Nov-2008 at 16:42 |
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Yes, the vast majority of the Army did not admire the Nazis. I included to note some of the ideological factors influencing Pinochet and the Army as a whole. I would give more weight to crushing the Communist rebellion in the 40's as influencing the Army as a whole but Pinochet seems to have believed in Anti-Communism even before that. I am a bit unclear as to the actions of the Right-wing militias. I know they murdered a few people and government officials. The scope of their activity and intent is unclear to me.
I suppose this is a difference in context. I would regard the Romanian Revolution as being peaceful (it was essentially a coup) despite the over 1,000 dead. The bloodier aspects stem not from actual combat but the Securitate trying to do as much damage as possible to keep their bargaining position. You still see apartment blocs with bullet damage in them. The difference is that they were trying to kill a lot more people than they managed. |
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Human error is a certainty, the location of it is not.
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gcle2003
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Suspended Joined: 06-Dec-2004 Online Status: Offline Posts: 7035 |
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Posted: 02-Nov-2008 at 16:55 |
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In the second round of French election there are only two candidates, so one of them must have a majority of voters. That's not the same as the majority of the electorate, as I pointed out. 43,903,230 people voted for Reagan in 1980. That is barely (50.7%) a majority of the people voting: it is certainly not a majority of the electorate, far from it.
In fact it rather makes my point that it is very uncommon for a US President to get a majority even of those voting.
Why not? At their last election Bachelet got 53.7% of the vote (Pinguin will correct me if I'me wrong) which is even more than Reagan got. For that matter it's more than Sarkozy got.
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Posted: 02-Nov-2008 at 17:39 |
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I don't know the details and the numbers, but I know for sure some Americans, Spaniards and Cubans died during the Pinochet dictatorship.
The problem existed, but it didn't start with Allende but long time before. You couldn't imagine the living conditions of people in Santiago during the 30s or 40s, for instance. That grow worst with the flooding of country people to Santiago in the following decades.
Allende didn't start those problems, just try to solve them according to his ideas. My country was in a deep crisis since long time before.
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Posted: 02-Nov-2008 at 17:47 |
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The right wing militias stopped to act immediatelly after the coup had happened.
With respect to the communist crashing, it is interesting to note that the nazis were also crashed at the end of the 30s, in a bloody massacre that killed 100 of young nazi followers.
Nazis, though, have always projected a shadow in my country. After all, the German Dignity colony wasn't anything else than a Nazi camp. It is amazing that it was protected by the right wingers up to some few years ago, just before it was occupied by the police and dismantled by the state.
I agree. The Argentinean coup and repression was a lot blodier than the Chilean, for example, with tens of thousand dead. Guatemala, Peru and other places had hundred of thousand dead.
The problem with Pinochet was not that he killed less people, but that he managed to control a country in terror,killing at random once in a while. He was a master of terror. That's why we hate him from the bottom of our heart.
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Beylerbeyi
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Joined: 02-Aug-2004 Location: Cuba Online Status: Offline Posts: 1355 |
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Posted: 03-Nov-2008 at 12:19 |
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I see no point in responding to American neocons and already banned wiki-nationalists, but I will respond to Pinguin as he is a Chilean.
Yes, that's what I wrote. Only a neocon would call democracy in Chile 'legacy of Pinochet'.
US is not just against 'Communism', it is against any kind of popular movement that remotely threatens American profits. This is also why Fidel Castro is authoritarian, and Chavez has to crack down on the opposition now and then. If US hadn't attacked anyone who attempted to gain independence for their people and improve the conditions for the poor a bit, like a rabid dog, then the socialist revolutionaries worldwide would have been less authoritarian.
What happens if you are nice and democratic? US sends in the CIA and sabotages your economy working together with the local comparador bourgeoisie (i.e. the rich elite who don't want to lose their previlages). US and the rich control the media, political parties, stage demonstrations and strikes, so your economy fails and you lose the elections. If these tactics don't work, US works with your military (usually through people who are trained in the US) and removes you, suspends democracy, replacing it with fascist dictatorship. If this doesn't work, US places a weapons embargo (all the Western countries follow) on you and funds insurgent terrorist guerilla (such as the contras-) which go around killing everyone. Then the only way you can get weapons is from USSR, and when you do it US calls you 'Communist', 'in league with Moscow'. If you manage to defeat the American backed terrorists, then the America sends in the Marines and invades you, citing 'Communist' danger, and places a fascist government which often massacres the population.
In the beginning Vietnamese leader Ho Shi Minh just wanted independence, but the Americans told him to be an obedient slave to the whites. So he became a Communist. Democratic Arbenz government in Guatemala tried to pass a land reform law in 1953, which would buy the unused land from American companies and distribute it to the peasants. CIA did not even tolerate this, and overthrew the Arbenz government, using the methods I wrote above. Che Guevara saw this happening as he was there, and learned an important lesson, which he later taught Fidel Castro, who was another young idealist independence seeker (but not a Communist).
Che's lesson was, 'if you want to do the slightest reform, you should crack down on the opposition as soon as you take the power, if you don't, US will come knocking and replace you'. So when they liberated Cuba, they immediately consolidated their authority. They were successful. US still tries to overthrow them unsuccessfully, after 50 years.
Chavez is luckier in that US is weak right now, so he can stay in power without being openly authoritarian. He is very popular, been elected many times, and US tried some of the early tricks with the press, demos and military, but failed to sabotage Chavez's rule so far.
Back to Chile, poor Allende was a real democrat and an idealist. He was not a revolutionary, when the came to power, and US and Chilean elite sabotaged his economy and rule he could not do anything.
If you don't believe me, listen to an American democrat speak about it:
Chilean economy under Allende was sabotaged. It was, as it is today, dependent on the West. US of course helped their servant, but Chile is not what it could be.
Those technocrats were sent in from US with explicit instructions to integrate Chile to the world capitalist system as a dependency.
The so-called free-market economy does not actually work for the poor. No sizeable country ever industrialised with a free-trade regime in history (except Britain as it was the first). Mixed economies have the best performance. Just look at China, Korea, Japan or Europe 1945-1975... The reason your democratic governments have kept the free market is because if they tried to change things, US would sabotaged them.
Also as Mixcoatl observes, your per capita has always been high compared to other in the region, but your per capita GDP is nowhere near a developed country.
I don't know the trends, but I am sure that there is no developed country on this planet with a GINI index of 55.
Cuba can not be compared to Chile. Chile got a few bones thrown in its direction since Pincohet has been such an obedient little puppy. All Cuba got from the US, however, was sabotage, and more sabotage. And remember, they are right next to the US, unlike Chile, whoo can trade with its neighbours easily. Cuba refused American dominance and paid for it. It would make more sense to compare these two when USSR was around.
If you want to see the difference between Communist system and Capitalist system, compare Cuba to Haiti. They are similar in size and geographic position and population.
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Bandeirante
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Joined: 24-Jan-2008 Location: Brazil-Brasil Online Status: Offline Posts: 60 |
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Posted: 03-Nov-2008 at 21:00 |
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Pinochet was a tyrant and a coward that was arrested by the English. If he were a macho he would be arrested only dead !
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