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Ancient Indians extreme resentment of the Greeks

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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ancient Indians extreme resentment of the Greeks
    Posted: 08-Oct-2007 at 10:21
Reading many ancient Indian texts i was struck by the fact that just how most of the times Greeks were viewed with such contempt. e.g in Ashoka's pillars Ashoka says that "The class of Brahmins exists in all cultures and people except the Greeks". Here he seems to be dehumanizing Greeks by saying that all other humans have a religious class except the Greeks. In another ancient mathematics text the author says that "Although Greeks are unpure stll in the sciences they excelled other people". It appears that the Greeks were held in much contempt in ancient India. I was wondering why. Maybe it was because of the Indo-Greek wars and the Greeks unprovoked agression in India. 
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2007 at 12:47
Could also be the fact that the Greek priests were not a particular cast on their own and their role was much less significant that in other neighboring cultures.
 
Of course, attacking the Indian homecountry must have played its part too...
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2007 at 14:08
Maybe its lost in translation>? Since Ashoka was 2/3rds Greek and a lot of Greeks lived in the Mauryan Empire. They would eventually form one of the suceessor states.
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2007 at 17:30
Originally posted by Sparten

Since Ashoka was 2/3rds Greek and a lot of Greeks lived in the Mauryan Empire.


Is it really proved that he was any part Greek. The arguments are pretty conjectural. I am not aware that there are any direct references anywhere which say that he was any any part Greek.
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  Quote Sander Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Oct-2007 at 22:23
That Greeks ( greco Bactrian ) ruled in north of the subcontinent incl. parts of moden India is probably one of the reasons. However, Greeks were also praised for their science.
 
Mleccha hi yavanah tesu samyak shastram idam sthitam
Rsivat te api pujyante kim punar daivavid dvijah
(Brhatsamhita 2.15)
 
"The Greeks, though impure, must be honored since they were trained in sciences and therein, excelled others....."


Edited by Sander - 08-Oct-2007 at 22:30
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  Quote jdalton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 04:06
I wonder if maybe Indian historians weren't using the word "Greek" to describe anyone who lived west of Pakistan. Just as Westerners used "Indian" to describe anyone east of Persia. In Helenistic times it would not be a wholly inaccurate label, and it would certainly be fair to say that "Greeks" did not follow the way of the Brahmans.
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Oct-2007 at 10:55
Originally posted by jdalton

I wonder if maybe Indian historians weren't using the word "Greek" to describe anyone who lived west of Pakistan. Just as Westerners used "Indian" to describe anyone east of Persia. In Helenistic times it would not be a wholly inaccurate label, and it would certainly be fair to say that "Greeks" did not follow the way of the Brahmans.

    No i don't think that is likely. Because in the Ashoka pillars Ashoka talks about many places to the west of Pakistan like Egypt and i think that he did have some knowledge of the places to the West of Pakistan.
   
    Another important thing to note is that the name with which the easterners referred to Greek which is Yuan, Yuanistan and Yunan. It is a well known fact that Iona was the cradle of Greek civilization even though the Greeks eventually destroyed it and it appears that the easterners always associated the early civilization of Iona with the subsequent Greek civilization.
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  Quote chaloappu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Oct-2007 at 08:22
chandragupt morya was the great king who defeated the greeks comprihansively
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Oct-2007 at 13:02
Originally posted by Sander

That Greeks ( greco Bactrian ) ruled in north of the subcontinent incl. parts of moden India is probably one of the reasons. However, Greeks were also praised for their science.
 
Mleccha hi yavanah tesu samyak shastram idam sthitam
Rsivat te api pujyante kim punar daivavid dvijah
(Brhatsamhita 2.15)
 
"The Greeks, though impure, must be honored since they were trained in sciences and therein, excelled others....."
 
Good point.
 
In fact, the Greek influence in latter Indian mathematics is huge. When reading an Aryabatta's text somewhere in the web I found out that the science that genious had was Greek geometry in greek style Confused...
I have no doubt Greeks influenced in part the great intellectual development that India had in the following centuries, in both arts (escupture and mathematics).
 
 
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Oct-2007 at 13:43
What I could understand is that both Indians and Greeks were the same people.
 
That once Indians were ruling the vast area upto middle-east and SEA countries, Americas and even Europe and at that time, there was no difference.
 
After that, the "Greeks", known as "Yavanas" tried to break away from Indian roots. In fact, there are many references that they were degraded, ex-communicated warrior class of Indians.
 
Therefore, naturally the outgoing people would be more assertive, aggressive and belligerent and the parent-people would be more angry and thus chiding the run-away ones.
 
Anway, I remember the British Indologis have done a lot of work in this regard and they treated all people as their forefathers.
 
As for as the mathematics is concerned, it was Greeks who borrowed from Indians. I read that Pythogorus came to India and learned about numbers, the travel of soul from one living thing to another, association of numbers with concepts etc.
 
About the date of Aryabhata also different views are expressed - one group placing him in 3rd millenium BCE and another in CE in the first five centuries.
 
Anyway, I searched for the wife of Aryabhata, his family, sons and daughters etc. As Bhaskara used to teach his daughter Leelavathi, I used to think about Aryabhata teaching to his daughter!
 
Aryabhata's sutras are in two lines as most of the Indian works.
 
Even earlier Tamil works like Tirukkural followed the same rule.
 
It is always easy to remember two-liners. Memorizing is also simple.
 
Anyway, Greeks were our brothers.
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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2007 at 13:07
Originally posted by pinguin

When reading an Aryabatta's text somewhere in the web I found out that the science that genious had was Greek geometry in greek style Confused...
I have no doubt Greeks influenced in part the great intellectual development that India had in the following centuries, in both arts (escupture and mathematics).

Pinguin please elaborate that assertion a bit more.  I have actually read all of the Aristotle, Plato, Socrates works as well as Euclid's elements and their way of thinking is much different from the Indian school of thought. So you have to elaborate that what do you mean by Aryhabhatta's work being Greek geometry in Greek Style. Quite a large number of ideas that which Aryabhatta gave in his work have no parallels in Greek thougth. As for there being some similarity, well that is bound to happen when a subject is studied even independently. For example Chinese mathematics developed indepedently of Greek and yet many concepts of Greek science were also thought by the Chinese people like the idea of proof and the Pyhtagorus theorem. In the 13th cetury Chinese mathematicians discovered techniques which would be discovered independently by the European mathematicians in the 17th century. The native Americans invented zero independently of the Indians. The history of Mathematics is full of parallel inventions much more so than the other sciences because mathematics is a science which deals with abstract concepts which are universal and are not dependent on cultural beliefs and environmental experience.







 
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  Quote SuN. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2007 at 16:03
The fact of parallel discoveries & invention is true. New World, Antarctic, Oceania etc.. were discovered as far as the Westerners were considered.BUt many other people knew these lands much earlier.
Pyhtogorus theoram & trignometry was knows to the Indians & Chinese much earlier than it was invented in the west. Same for Zero & calculas & the atomic theory. The theory of quantum physics also finds mention. Radio was discovered by Jagdishchandra Bose earlier but marconi is credited with the discovery.

Anyway coming back to the topic,  There was no contempt whatsoever amongst the Indians for the Greeks.  
The animosity amongst the Indians for the Greeks was a result of Alexander's failed & aborted invasion of northwestern peripheral Indian city states.  After that Chanakya fought one war with the Greeks defeating Selucas, wherein Selucas was made to give his beautiful daughter in marriage to Chandragupta, along with a retinue of female servants & her friends While Chanakya gave the Greeks 500 trained war elephants  to  help them to fight off the rising rebellions  in their  territories.

Thus Ashok can be said to be partly Greek

Even Chanakya did not have any contempt for the Greeks. He admired them for their conquests.

The fact that the Greeks were respected by the Indians can be seen in numerous artefacts which have a clear Greek influence resulting from the fact that the Indian empress herself was Greek. Further a Greek mother would definitly ensure that some of the Greek influence passes on to the progeny.

Why would the Indians go against there own popular queen of a very popular king?

Later also the relations between Greeks & Indians were very cordial as they both benefitted mututally from each other. Ever since the Eastern frontier was secured for the Greeks (& western frontier for the Indians), the Greeks were able to concentrate their forces on the inner rebellions & crush them (the 500 well trained war elephants may also have helped a lot)

Infact in later periods there are references like "As beautiful as a Greek princess" & in several places, giving credance to the popularity of the Selucas's daughter & "Gracious as Greek Maidens" maybe referring to the retinue of  the friends of Selucas's daughter who had come with her.

Please do not get swayed away by the title of the thread. Indians never had any contempt for Greeks, niether do they have anything similiar now.

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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2007 at 18:22
Originally posted by SuN.

The fact of parallel discoveries & invention is true. New World, Antarctic, Oceania etc.. were discovered as far as the Westerners were considered.BUt many other people knew these lands much earlier.
Pyhtogorus theoram & trignometry was knows to the Indians & Chinese much earlier than it was invented in the west. Same for Zero & calculas & the atomic theory. The theory of quantum physics also finds mention. Radio was discovered by Jagdishchandra Bose earlier but marconi is credited with the discovery.

Anyway coming back to the topic,  There was no contempt whatsoever amongst the Indians for the Greeks.  
The animosity amongst the Indians for the Greeks was a result of Alexander's failed & aborted invasion of northwestern peripheral Indian city states.  After that Chanakya fought one war with the Greeks defeating Selucas, wherein Selucas was made to give his beautiful daughter in marriage to Chandragupta, along with a retinue of female servants & her friends While Chanakya gave the Greeks 500 trained war elephants  to  help them to fight off the rising rebellions  in their  territories.

Thus Ashok can be said to be partly Greek

Even Chanakya did not have any contempt for the Greeks. He admired them for their conquests.

The fact that the Greeks were respected by the Indians can be seen in numerous artefacts which have a clear Greek influence resulting from the fact that the Indian empress herself was Greek. Further a Greek mother would definitly ensure that some of the Greek influence passes on to the progeny.

Why would the Indians go against there own popular queen of a very popular king?

Later also the relations between Greeks & Indians were very cordial as they both benefitted mututally from each other. Ever since the Eastern frontier was secured for the Greeks (& western frontier for the Indians), the Greeks were able to concentrate their forces on the inner rebellions & crush them (the 500 well trained war elephants may also have helped a lot)

Infact in later periods there are references like "As beautiful as a Greek princess" & in several places, giving credance to the popularity of the Selucas's daughter & "Gracious as Greek Maidens" maybe referring to the retinue of  the friends of Selucas's daughter who had come with her.

Please do not get swayed away by the title of the thread. Indians never had any contempt for Greeks, niether do they have anything similiar now.



    It was not my intention to be in any way offensive to the ancient Greeks much less modern ones. Through this thread i was trying to discuss this facet of Indo Greek relationship which doesn't seem so cordial.  And the reference to Greeks as being unpure are authentic and well recorded.

    And sun historically it is said that Chandragupta Maurya gave his daughter to the Selucas rather than the other way round. It is said that since there are no references to an Indian princess in the Greek literature therefore the marriage must have been the other way round and it was the selucas  daughter which was given to the Indians. My objection to these interpretations are that they are arguing in negativism, that since we do not know of something therefore it doesn't exist. Well assuming that whatever took place at that time we know about it is highly erroneous because as so many of much more valuable information was lost through the ages does its seem so surprising that record of a certain princess is also lost through the ages. Can they identify all the princesses of the Selucoid period. While on the other hand we have so much literature available on Ashoka who after Sidharta Gautma was the leadig figure of Bhuddism one of the major world religion. And no where in this vast literature do we find any mention of Ashoka having any Greek ancestory and the Indians knew of the Greeks who they referred to as "Yavanas" and in my opinion deciding that Ashoka was Greek on this type of evidence is not right.

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  Quote SuN. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2007 at 08:27
















Bad logic. On one hand you say Indians had contempt for Greeks, on the other you say One of the most powerful Indian emperors of all time & certainly much more powerful than Selucas gave his daughter in marriage to him. If Indians had contempt for Greeks, how would they give their daughter to him? Chandragupta was a popular emperor. He would'nt have been popular if he gave his daughter to a so called impure community. And lastly Chandragupta was unmarried while going to the war. It is famous because of the dialogue between Chandragupta & his mentor Chanakya, Where Chanakya asks his student  "What do you stand to loose, even if you loose the war? You have no family of your own, As for you mother, she had surrendered you to me long back. So you have only your life to be lost & that belongs to me" Ashoka was not Greek. He was Indian.  One of his ancestors was a Greek.






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  Quote bilal_ali_2000 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2007 at 12:51
Originally posted by SuN.


Bad logic. On one hand you say Indians had contempt for Greeks

I did not say that Indians had definetly contempt for Greeks. I was just intrigued by some of these comments which indicated that Indians may have had some contempt for Greeks. And we don't really know that what were the thinking of those times regarding these marriage settlements. But my point stands that if Ashoka had any Greek ancestry then we should have found some mention about it in the large Bhuddist literature which we have on Ashoka.
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Edited by bilal_ali_2000 - 27-Oct-2007 at 12:52
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  Quote jayeshks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2007 at 02:36
I think the claims of Ashoka having some Greek heritage are a bit off the mark.  The 'marriage alliance' between Chandragupta and Seleucus is said to have taken place around 305 BC.  Chandragupta's successor and Ashoka's father, Bindusara was born around 320 BC, so he'd have been a teenager when this Greek princess is said to have been betrothed to the Maurya dynasty.  The whole episode is thoroughly confusing.  It's assumed that the princess came from the Greek side because there are no Greek records of an Indian princess, but the Mauryans, being horrible chroniclers like so many Indian rulers, have no record of the marriage at all.  
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  Quote SuN. Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2007 at 05:48
Not only the Mauryans but all Indians were horrible chroniclers because they simply dont document things.. It is in their very system of education based on the gurukul model. 
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  Quote Flipper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2008 at 13:43
Bilal Ali, could you please give me the Indian texts containing this context and where I could have a look as well? I'm interrested in the indo-greek contacts and need to have a more spherical view. 


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  Quote ishwa Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2008 at 19:46

Chandraguptas son was Bindusara. Bindusaras mother came from Chandagutta's maternal clan community or Sangha and was his chief queen. (MT.187f).

 

The Mahāvamsa Tīka (p.125; Mbv.98.) gives the name of Asokas mother as Dhammā and calls her Aggamahesī (Bindusāra's chief queen); she belonged to the Moriyavamsa. She bore 2 sons, Asoka and Tissa (MT.189, 324).

In the northern tradition, e.g., Ashokāvadānamālā, she is called Subhadrāngī, daughter of a brahmin of Campā.

 

He (Seleucus) crossed the Indus and waged war with Sandrocottus [Maurya], king of the Indians, who dwelt on the banks of that stream, until they came to an understanding with each other and contracted a marriage relationship.   Appian, History of Rome, The Syrian Wars 55.

 

It is not clear whose daughter was married to whom. But it didnt matter for the parentage of the Maurya kings.

 

 

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