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Charles V - Success or failure?

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Maharbbal View Drop Down
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Charles V - Success or failure?
    Posted: 26-Oct-2007 at 00:56
I know that argument but there are a few problems. For instance, Poland had a mighty parliament while Prussia had a self-centered absolutist bastard as a king. But Prussia made it big time.

Second problem: the English were taxed more heavily than the French at that time and God only knows why the Brits complained less.

Third, for a long time the Dutch market system worked better than the English one and many continental bonds were more sought after than those of the English king.

Finally, the English government was certainly not the only one caring about economy (see for instance the bio of Turgot).

Overall one can criticize as simplistic the causation seen between constitutional form and economic success.

On this subject I dare to advise you to read the wonderful and short (if difficult to find) book by Stephen Epstein called Freedom and Growth.

The fact that such an organization as the Englsh East India Cie thrived both before and after 1688 indicates that the link found by Doug North was certainly not that strong.

One could argue that the English superior shipyards and the fact that their field yield more crops or their strategic advantage as a island (never invaded after 1485) or the protestant religion and so many other factors were responsible for England's success. I think that saying that only one of them was essential is clearly simplistic.
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  Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2007 at 01:48
Oh I totally agree with you that England's economy was not the only reason for her successes. I advise though that you should also try reading the Rise and Fall of the British Empire by Lawrence James, where it gives good examples of the debt accumulated by both Britain and France when they were at war with each other. Not to say it is the only reason why they were so great, but I consider it good evidence for the success a powerful parliment can have when creating reforms. This would be especially true for the early modern age

Edited by Ponce de Leon - 26-Oct-2007 at 01:48
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  Quote Maharbbal Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Oct-2007 at 15:47
I didn't say that economy was not the only reason for England's success I said that the type of government had little to do with England's success.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2007 at 04:54
What gave English the advantage, I believe, it was the early development of private enterprises, and the development of a local manufacturing industry, able to ballance the trade with theirs colonies.
 
Industrialists and practical people build england. That has nothing to do with protestantism or polical rules, all factors that could stop development but never promote it. It was the practical, engineering oriented people, which changed England, more than anything else.
 
It is curious that Spain had many inventors. People that even invented prototypes of the steam machine before the English (Ayanz)... But nobody support those efforts at all... there was no energy to develop private companies and private projects in the English style.
 
Afterwards, the Industrial Revolution marked the acceleration of development, which was possible only because English knew the technique to build new companies and have the courage to ride the waves of technological development.
 
It is not a casuality that Isaac Newton, William Shakespeare and James Watt lived relatively close in time... they were the product of a different way of seeing the world.
 
 
 
 


Edited by pinguin - 27-Oct-2007 at 04:59
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  Quote HaloChanter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Oct-2007 at 17:24
Yowser, kept away for a few days and it all gets way from me Cool
 
Now realistically, he did achieve at least three major things: 1) Kept his realm intact
 
- A lot of monarchs do this, but does it mean their reigns are one of success? But I must disagree that he kept it intact. Before he had even abdicated he had failed to retake Wurttenburg from the Protestants, had been chased out of Germany, lost most of his power as Emperor, lost the Imperial Free Cities to France, and remained someone importent and broken in Brussels in his last year as Emperor. He left his successors a divided and diminished realm to split among themselves.
 
2) Took control of Italy (and the pope)
 
- I must agree. Charles's handling of Italy was masterful, ultimately ensuring two centuries of Spanish rule. But at what price? When the Protestants spread in Germany and threatened Habsburg power, Charles was campaigning in Italy. When the Great Turk came to the gates of Vienna, Charles again was busy in Italy.
 
 3) Resisted the Ottomans at their mightiest
 
- I can't help but think people over-exaggerate the Habsburg fight against the Ottomans. Apart from Tunis, the Habsburgs were defeated at Algiers and had very weak control for long periods over their own areas of the Mediterranean. Barbarossa freely pillaged Sicily, Naples and Aragon, capturing tens of thousands of Christians.
 
On the Eastern front, Ferdinand met with disaster after disaster. By the 1540's, Buda and Pest had been lost as well as the strategically important Esztergom. Indeed the Truce of Edirne in 1547 was quite humiliating. Ferdinand had lost virtually his entire Hungarian inheritance, paying a 30,000 ducat indemnity for a small strip called Royal Hungary, and for a five year truce.
 
The failed siege of Vienna was less a Habsburg victory than an Ottoman failure. Vienna represented the limit of Turkish supply and logistics. They could march an army across the Balkans, through Hungary and up to the walls of Vienna's city, burning the suburbs as it passed, but it could never have sustained a long siege so far from home. In 1529 Suleyman had spent 201 days campaigning before the nineteen day siege of Vienna, and his withdrawal was one through lack of supplies and energy.
When he returned in 1532 the weather was atrocious forcing the abandonment of his larger artillery. The siege of Guns held the Turkish army up for a month. By the time the army reached Vienna the campaining season was too far gone. When Suleryman looked for a pitched battle which his enemies refused him, he retired due to depleted supplies and an exhausted army.
After twice returning empty handed from a march on Vienna, the Ottomans were well aware that they had reached their limit.
 
4) Invented modern government debt (he was badly indebted but then again they all were).
 
- Well, he invented the legacy of modern government debt. Indeed, Charles's experiment was self-destructive, the empire so exhausted on his abdication that all revenues from each of his domains had been mortgaged for the forseeable future. Indeed, by 1555 Charles had charged 28m ducats of loans to his Spanish realm and farmed out the revenues for 3 years. It is no coincidence that in 1557 Phillip was bankrupt.
 
Now, in the Low Countries, he left a positive legacy of debt management, but it was counter-productive. It only strengthened local institutions and further decentralized Charles's empire, a fact that allowed the states of the North to maintain their successful struggle against Phillip soon after Charles's death.
 
So that's surely good stuff.
 
- I'm just not convinced it is. And what does turn out to be positive is often counter-productive, in no way enough to suggest that Charles's reign was one of success.
 
his realm was not to break appart soon after his death in a mindless civil war.
 
- Civil war? No. But the Netherlands were to break away, England was lost, and the splitting of the Austrian and Spanish parts of his realm under seperate monarchs was the last thing Charles intended. He was, indeed, forced in to this.
 
Thanks!!
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Oct-2007 at 18:22
Originally posted by Maharbbal

For instance, Poland had a mighty parliament while Prussia had a self-centered absolutist bastard as a king.


Confused ???

there are at least 2 inacuracies in that sentence...
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Mar-2008 at 10:04
I think Charles V has in impossible job as the empire which he was intrusted to protect was rotting from the inside, the pope was willing to risk the empire in order to control charles, even siding with those who where attacking him, not to metnion not sending troops or money for the most part.
 
Moreover he had religious termiol to deal with such as Luther so he was being attack from the inside, through relgion and his enemies such as the ottermans.
 
having said that despite all of this he managed to the keep the empire together (his job) and win some great victories like those mentioned above so all in all i would suggest he did very well considering the impossible nature of the task.
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  Quote HaloChanter Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2008 at 22:18
He didn't manage to keep it together, though.
 
By 1553 he was an obsolete figure, unable to keep things under control but obsessed by clinging to power.
 
He was run out of his German territories and practically forced to retire to Spain.
 
The empire was split in two, not by plan, but because he had no choice.
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Mar-2008 at 23:02
It is possible that Charles separated the Habsburg lands partly in order to focus the Habsburgs' attention on the Turks.  He, himself, had too much to do when the bureaucracy was in its formative stages.  By handing the central European territories to Ferdinand, that Habsburg could focus on the Turkish threat on land as it was closest to his dominions.
 
Charles retained the wealthiest, and most strategically important parts of the Habsburg territories for his own son, and that seemed at the time to be sufficient to combat the Turk in the Mediterranean.
 
From what I have read, no one could have predicted the religious turmoil of the last half of the century, and the disaster of the Thirty Years War.  The religious settlement at Augsburg seemed to be a final one to the princes, but, unknown to them, they were no longer the only ones who mattered.
 
  
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  Quote drgonzaga Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Mar-2008 at 12:04
Why is it so difficult to accept the word of Charles V with regard for the reasons behind his celebrated abdication in 1555!?! His famous contemporaries were all dead and his own health had long succumbed to the gout and he purposely addressed this latter at the grand ceremony held in Brussels on 25 October 1555. Further, the release of the imperial title had taken place two years earlier in 1553 despite the obfuscation of the papacy under the old nemesis of the dynasty, Caraffa. It is interesting to note that the actual process of the planned abdications took some three years to complete [1553-1556] and even then there were some, following the gossip of Venetian diplomacy, who believed Charles retained the real power of decision while his brother and son would serves simply as healthy surrogates. Yet, one has to keep in mind that already for decades, Ferdinand had fully administered and governed the German patrimony of the Habsburgs. In fact, it is probably by nothing more than dynastic pressure that old Fernando of Aragon had not passed that crown to his namesake (who unlike Charles had been raised at his court). 
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