Prove your god's existence.
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Scholarly Pursuits
Forum Name: Philosophy and Theology
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URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16137
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Topic: Prove your god's existence.
Posted By: Hellios
Subject: Prove your god's existence.
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 19:15
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I kindly invite anybody to prove their god's existence.
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Replies:
Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 19:22
Here's an attempt to prove my god's existence:
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Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 19:47
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As an atheist, I am still opposed to 'proving' the exitence of any God. As I cannot prove there is none, and others cannot prove there is, there is little use but leave each and every one in peace to decide for themselves what to believe.
And I do not see how a book written several thousand years ago as a guideline for a people living in the desert can prove the existence of a God. ------------- 
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 20:31
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Here you are,
http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster - http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster
I even believe the Bible, Koran and Torah have borrowed from it. ------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 21:17
If you're a person who holds the view that any ultimate reality (as God) is unknown and probably unknowable, and/or one who is not committed to believing in either the existence or the nonexistence of God or a god, then you're an agnostic, not an atheist. See "agnosticism".
Atheism is a disbelief in the existence of deity; the doctrine that there is no deity.
Precisely. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 21:23
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As an agnostic, I am certain that both believers and atheists are wrong! I simply don't know if there is a god or not! Moreover, I insist nobody knows!
Even more, I claim no human being will ever know if God exist or not!
Why?
Because human beings are finite beings, limited in time (a human lifetime) and space (fit in a standar coffin).
On the other side God, if exists, is by definition INFINITE.
Therefore, there is no way a finite being can even understand the infinite. George Cantor, the creator of the transfinite mathematics tried but he lost his mind in the process, and ended a real crazy fellow.
 So I say you both, believers and atheistics, why are you so centain of something that escape your capabilities?
Pinguin
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Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2006 at 21:55
 ).
You cant be certain, though i think infinity can be proven mathematically. You may experinace that state but you cant truelly understand it. To understand it in a human way, requires a degree of logical thought which would only bound a person to the world of logic. The eastern traditions may try to experiance it via deep meditation, intellectually its simply impossible. ------------- 
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Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 07:33
No, really? Duh. I effing well know what the difference is, wiseass. I do not believe in any deity, I also do not believe there is 'something out there', I believe there is absolutely nothing, and therefore I am NOT an agnostic.
But I consider that my personal choice. I do not force my opinion upon others, and I respect other people's different beliefs, as long as they do not force their opinion upon me. I find it rather shortsighted to think that bein an atheist somehow makes me incpable of being tolerant towards others, and I cannot but conclude that this judgement of yours comes from your own inability to tolerate other opinions.
As you cannot prove your beliefs either, you are in little position to consider others wrong. I do not consider anybody wrong. I can only decide for myself waht to believe, any attempt to decide what is right or wrong for others to believe is an act of inmeasurable arrogance.
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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 07:59
You can believe whatever you wish. I was just declaring my believe as a hard line agnostic. And yes, agnostics have no much in common with atheists at all.
Pinguin
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Posted By: xi_tujue
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 08:03
verry funny paul south park episode 1012 GO GOD GO Back to topic you cant prove it. If you could know it forsure it wouldnt be faith but knowing. ------------- I rather be a nomadic barbarian than a sedentary savage |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 08:16
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I think agnosticism, logically speaking, leads automatically to atheism. If you believe that (a) god's existance cannot be proven or disproven, that means you cannot attribute any describing characteristics to god. (Like "good", "all powerful", "omniscient", "creating",etc.) After all, if you attribute such characteristics to god, that means you can induce his existance or non-existance out of those characteristics. So in other words, if you are agnostic, you cannot attribute any characteristics to god, because that would take away the improvability of his (non-existence). Hower as you cannot attribue any characteristics to god, the word 'god' becomes completely meaningless. So that means frases like 'god exists', 'god doesn't exist' and 'god's existance is unknowable' are as meaningless as 'asdf exists', 'asdf doesn't exist' and 'asdf's existance is unknowable'. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 08:49
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But you can't prove God doesn't exist either!
As we say in Spanish "Ateo gracias a Dios"
(I am atheistic, thanks to God)
Agnosticism is more about recognizing human limitations in knowledge than anything else. Is a modest attitude before the glory of the Creation and the recognition of our lack of knowledge about the purpose of it, if any.
Pinguin
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Posted By: the Bulgarian
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 09:20
Just found the thread. Very interesting, gents, very interesting indeed. I've posted this elsewhere, but this is the topic that its best suited for, so I hope you don't mind me repeating myself. My goal is to prove the nonexistance of god(s). 
...First of all, let me ask you something. How is it that you know your religion is the right one? (this was a question directed at a particular forumer). So many of them exist. It's a gamble whether you'll be born in a Christian, Jewish, Buddisst, etc. family. For 99% of people their parents religion determins their own. So whether you'll worship the "Right God" or not, who ever he is, is a matter of chance. Now that is plain unfairness to the good people, who were just born in the wrong families. Let's say Allah is the one true God. Then all the goodhearted Christians, Jews, etc. go to hell. Why? Nonbelievers go to hell. It's in the Kuran. It's as simple as that. And vice versa. But then why didn't Allah give them the chance to worship him, after all he is allmighty? Some would say that he did. They know about Muhhamad and are free to convert to Islam. But what about the people born before the birth of Muhhamad or Christ? No matter how good they were they'll still burn.
But what's more suspicious is the concept of the entire creation of the Universe and Mankind. They're all alike. Muhhammad coppied the Bible and made some minor adjustments. He even went as far as steeling Jusus from Christianity. Couldn't he have been a little more creative? If you've read one Holy book you've read them all. How can you still believe that the Universe is 5000 years old, that God created man out of mud and all those things now that we know that the Universe is 12 to 20 billion years old, how life began and evolved and how mankind eventually came into being.
You're viewing your religion in an absolutistic manner - the one true and eternal one. That is because you're immersed in it. You must rise above that to observe it in its true essense.
All religious beliefs, starting with the first and most primitive ones, came into being as an attempt by the first people to explane the world around them. Any phenoemenon they didn't understand they contributed to a superior godlike force. Pagan mythologies are all alike. They all have a God of thunder, a God of fire, rain, etc. Just look up Slavic mythology in Wiki and compare it to Scandinavian, Baltic and Celtic. You wouldn't know whitch is whitch. In time religion started to encopass not only teachings about the outer physical world, but it ever more focused on man's spiritual and inner world. Religious beliefs are a part, a stage of the evolution of human thought, just as slavery, feudalism and capitalism were stages of the evolution of human society. Now religion is nearing its end. Today people don't need it to understand the reality around them, they have science to do that. And now they know that what religion tells them about the physycal aspect of the world is a lie and they don't believe it any more. They don't need it any more as a moral guide either. It's becoming obsolete. It's as simple as that. Of course, this process isn't instant, but comare modern times with the Renessanse and you'll see what a long way it's gone and how much it has excellerated. In the Muslim world it's at an earlier stage, but non the less it's only a matter of time. It's inevitable as the transition from a primitive society to a slavetrading one, from a slavetrading one to a feudal one, etc., is. It's just a stage in the evolution of the way we think, the way we persieve the world arround us and the phylosophyc system that goes with this perception. Before the Renessanse God was seen as the only one capable of Creation, of having wisdom and thus the only one worthy of worship. People were viewed as insignifficant and worthless. But with the Renessanse came the idea that Man is the only being gifted with intelect and the ability to contemplate, to understand and to create. Thus he became the center of the a new moral system. Before man worshiped God and sacrificed himself in His name. Now Man became the object of worship. He was placed in the center of the Universe. That view will prevail worldwide, believe me. Maybe not in this generation, probably not in the next one, but when men land on a planet orbiting the nearest star the name Allah will be forgotten. |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 10:48
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I fully agree with your analysis, the BGian. If we assume that God, an omnipowerful and omnipresent entity, exists it leads to paradoxes such as the question whether God is so powerful that she can create a stone that she cannot lift. Such paradoxes are contradictory, and invalidate the assumption of God's existence. That is why I have chosen to be an atheist. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: the Bulgarian
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 11:01
| Hmm, I've never heard of this particular paradox you're talking about, but no matter. |
Posted By: ulrich von hutten
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 11:28
 ------------- 
http://imageshack.us"> 
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Posted By: the Bulgarian
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 11:52
Were you religious at some point in your life? Are you from Kurdjali? What's the situation over there, do people stick to their religious practices or atheism has gained the upper hand? How much have Bulgarian culture and way of life affected the Turks in Bulgaria? I imagine a Turk from Kurdjali is more "Western-like" than a Turk from Diarbekir. Or am I wrong? Please, inform me on the subject.
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Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 13:03
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I believe in man's lacking ability to know anything about such matters, the existence of a god or gods cannot be proven empirically. This doesn't mean there can't be any, but it is beyond our human senses to say anything about it. Clinging to some package deal of truths like our major world religions must therefore stem from either ignorance, fear of the uncertainties of life and death, social pressure or plain traditionalist stubborness. You can usually find at least one of these in every adherent.
Personally I hope there is a God and some form of universal justice by which we will all be judged, and of course; a life after this one. I often pray too, in the hope that something like this God-entity we imagine exists, but if I were to say I knew it existed then I'd just be embarassing myself intellectually. ------------- |
Posted By: Adalwolf
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 13:34
| People do not need to know. It is a matter of faith, not proof. |
Posted By: Paul
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 14:31
You also don't know that fairies, ghosts, UFO's and the yeti exist.
But it's absurd to say just because you don't know, you entertain the idea they might exist. Then to go on to criticise people who say they're nonsense.
Defending cranky ideas and their critics on ground they're unknowable puts you firmly with the cranks. I've always thought agnostic are allies to religious believers and enemies of athiests. ------------- Light blue touch paper and stand well back http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk - http://www.maquahuitl.co.uk http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk - http://www.toltecitztli.co.uk |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 15:02
First of all, in Diarbekir you would find few Turks, as it is mostly populated by Kurds. The paradox in Bulgaria was that before the advent of communism, Turks in Bulgaria were more religious than the Turks in Turkey, and that in part was aided by the insistance of the Bulgarian state to emphasizing their religion over ethincity in order to distance them from the secular nationalism of Ataturk, which Bulgaria feared might lead to seperatism. When communism arrived things changed dramatically. Many of the Moslem customs were banned, mosques were closed and people were forcefully secularised and Islam was looked down upon as backward. Despite all of this the older generation is still quite observant of religious customs, but the younger generation is shifting away. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: the Bulgarian
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 15:19
| Are you an atheist, Paul? |
Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 15:35
I translate faith as hope then. To me there is a difference between hope and belief. ------------- |
Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 15:53
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Atheism is commonsense. ------------- |
Posted By: Adalwolf
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 16:58
Actually, it is not. Throughout history mankind has always believed in some type of religion. So, Atheism is a recent abberation in historical terms, and not common at all. |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 18:38
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I reckon I could prove my God's existance if I had to, but I don't see any reason why I would want or need to. Its only the atheists that are concerned with proving their religion correct, - pity they don't do their research. 
lol! Some of my friends put this as their religion on the census
No its not. Thats the foundation of modern science. "I don't know, but this might work. " ------------- |
Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 18:42
"Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule." - F. Nietzsche ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 18:49
Let see.
How are you sure ghosts don't exist? Are you sure there are not extraterrestial beings?
Yes. I bet the goatsucker or nessy can be easily prove false. However, there are other topics that are not so clear cut. For instance, how can you prove your identity will dissapear after death? How?
What I mean is the following: You live in a society that have impossed you -without you knowing- certain believes of which you are not aware of. Particularly Possitivism. Most people with college education in the planet have the strange believe they already know everything, which is far from the truth. Anyone that has studied Quantum Mechanic, Transfinite Mathematics or the Godel Theorem, quickly realize the human mind has LIMITS.
If so, why to discard the existence of realities and explanations that are beyond what we can grasp today? or that perhaps we will never undestand at all?
And yes. Agnostics usually feel better with religious fellows which want to share ideas rather than with atheists and theirs faith in the lack of God and purpose. In fact, for an agnostic is quite easy to get into Thomas Aquinas, Spinozas and other theologists and philosophers, because the questions are the same.
As the matter of fact the big question is not if God exist or not. The big question is WHY WE EXIST?.
Pingiuin
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Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 19:08
I think I have bigger questions; "Do we exist?", "Does 'existence' exist?" etc. ------------- |
Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 19:17
Wiseass
- for politely pointing out a difference between the common definition of atheism and this statement:"As I cannot prove there is none, and others cannot prove there is, there is little use but leave each and every one in peace to decide for themselves what to believe."
The common definition of any word can be argued by those who really want to, but "As I cannot prove there is none,..." is part of most definitions of agnosticism. Since you're upset
 about me mentioning this nicely, sorry. 
I didn't see anybody here accusing you of being incapable of tolerance towards others.
I have no such thoughts about you. 
Aelfgifu, you're right about that.
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Posted By: Adalwolf
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 19:20
Of course we exist! If we didn't how would you ask the question? |
Posted By: Adalwolf
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 19:23
What? Are you impying that people of faith are insane? |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 19:29
I exist but you don't. Your just some square box on my computer. Of course we bloody well exist! ------------- |
Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 19:41
Agnosticism can definitely lead to atheism, but there are differences between a true agnostic and a true atheist, unless we start debating the common definitions of words, which can often be a good thing too.
Good points. As an agnostic, I attribute many describing characteristics to gods that my fellow members believe exist and claim to 'know'.
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Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 19:45
Thanks for this I read it all and might come back to you on some really good points you make.
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Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 19:58
I had to read this 2 times to fully understand your explanation of why you chose atheism, and I see the logic in your thinking, although an agnostic would have to be rather dumb to get into paradoxes like those mentioned considering that an agnostic simply doesn't deny the possibility of the existence of a god or something 'greater' beyond our understanding.
Rgds.
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Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 19:59
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Agnosticism can lead to nontheism, not atheism. There is a huge difference between the two. ------------- |
Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 20:15
Proof of God's Existence:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof
Oh, you didn't mean a Mathematical Proof....... ------------- Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative. Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 20:29
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I understand & don't blame those who see agnostics as enemies of atheists and allies of religious believers, for these reasons:
A true agnostic should merely not deny the possibility of the existence of a god or something else beyond our understanding and should not try to promote nor suppress anybody's beliefs about such things.
A true agnostic accepts that mankind's understanding of the universe is too incomplete for him or her to automatically become an atheist who flatly denies the possibility of the existence of a god or something else beyond our understanding.
A true agnostic should not promote any religion.
What do y'all think?
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Posted By: Adalwolf
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 20:41
I'm not agnostic, but what you say makes sense. Agnostics are those with commitmit issues. (jk) |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 21:53
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I agree!
Agostics divide peoples in to cathegory: (1) the ones that pretends a knowledge, and (2) the ones that don't know.
That's why Agnostics see Religious and Atheistics as the two sides of the same coin. Both pretending they know something they don't
Therefore, Agnostics feel pitty for both
Pinguin
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Posted By: Emperor Barbarossa
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 22:33
As an agnostic, I agree with you. I believe the term used to define atheists and theists is in a way "dogmatic", because you do have to accept the existance of a creator(s) or accept the non-existance of a creator(s). ------------- 
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Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2006 at 23:15
Atheism is just another religion, and a highly missionary one at that.
Your dividing the world up into theists and atheists. Thats completely wrong. Everyone knows that the world is divided up into muslims and non-muslims! Alright Bulgarian, while I want to make sure you understand I'm not trying to change your beliefs, I'm going to go through and point out the bits where you are so blatently wrong seeing as you've posted the same stuff in two threads now. You need to understand that the athesist can't use logic to confirm their beliefs either.
Have you ever put in some time to study different religions? Just because there are many doesn't mean they are all wrong! Duh!
Obviously you have never studied Islam, nor read the Quran. Just put a big X through this paragraph.
When Our Signs are rehearsed to them, they say: "We have heard this (before): if we wished, we could say (words) like these: these are nothing but tales of the ancients." Remember how they said: "O Allah if this is indeed the Truth from Thee, rain down on us a shower of stones form the sky, or send us a grievous penalty." But Allah was not going to send them a penalty whilst thou wast amongst them; nor was He going to send it whilst they could ask for pardon. [8:31-33] If you had read the Quran you will have noted that this question is answer multiple times. If you had read the Quran and the bible you would know how completely different the two books are.
Your emmersed in your culture and beliefs too. Why don't you rise above it and accept a different religion?
Prove it. Thats speculation, I'm about to believe that as you are that the first man was a muslim.
Rubbish. Your going to pidgeon hole all your ancestors into superstitous people? Anything you can figure out so could they.
With 1.5 billion muslims, 2 billion Christians and 800 million hindus I seriously doubt it.
Except religion is telling me the same as science is, some lie.
Where are you pulling that from? I think that depends on who the judge is.
Why? Nothing in Islam is limited to earth or humans.
Because your thinking is limited to the superficiallity? That sentence is completely meaningless. What does lift mean? Whats a stone? I can move any rock of any weight! You don't need to be all powerful. Creating meaningless logic puzzles then taking this as proof is ridiculous. ------------- |
Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 01:48
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Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 01:55
      Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/04/world_what_the_world_thinks_of_god/html/1.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/04/world_what_the_world_thinks_of_god/html/1.stm
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Posted By: King Kang of Mu
Date Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 03:07
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wow, good find, heilos. Nothing really suprising though. I thought Israel would be more religious but their numbers were more towards average. I noticed S.Korea at the bottom of the list of those willing to die for their god/belief. Perhaps that's why they picked a Korean guy for U.N. Sec Gen. Isn't life stressful enough without thinking about dying for your god, like dealing with NK, trying to compete with Japan, keeping U.S. calm, seducing China and investing in Russia? Death ain't so abstract, is it? ------------- http://www.allempires.net/forum/forums.html |
Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 12-Nov-2006 at 15:33
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The only way that you can prove God's existence is through every religious dogma.
Dogma is the established belief or doctrine held by a religion .
As a member of the Orthodox Christian Church i know that the Orthodox Church considers itself to be the original Church founded by Christ and His apostles. The faith taught by Jesus to the apostles, given life by the Holy Spirit at Pentecost , and passed down to future generations uncorrupted, is known as Holy Tradition. The primary witness to Holy Tradition is the Bible, texts written or approved by the apostles to record revealed truth and the early history of the Church. Because of the Bible's apostolic origin, it is regarded as central to the life of the Church.
Orthodox Christians believe (dogma) in a single God who is both three and one (triune): Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Holy Trinity is three unconfused, distinct, divine persons (hypostases) , with no overlap or modality among them, who share one divine essence (ousia)—uncreated, immaterial and eternal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternity - l . In discussing God's relationship to his creation distinction is made between God's eternal essence and uncreated energies.
All these are epitomized on THE CREED
http://www.ec-patr.gr/creed/index.php?i=en - http://www.ec-patr.gr/creed/index.php?i=en
You cannot add nothing ,you cannot change nothing you believe or not.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2006 at 11:12
I didn't say that agnostics are in fact atheists, but that agnosticism, if you logically continue the line of argument, leads to atheism. In other words, I don't believe agnosticism to be a tenable position.
Just look at it this way: All religious people only believe in the god(s) of their religion. So for example christians believe in the christian god only, and not in the thousands of other gods. It's harder to defend the statement "all gods don't exist except mine" than "no god exists"
Could you elaborate? I can understand why atheism could be considered a 'belief' but calling it a relgion makes no sense to me. ------------- |
Posted By: TheDiplomat
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2006 at 11:17
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If Allah's existance would be something like a theory that can be
proven easily, then the meaning of whole life would be menaingless, as
we are on an exam in this world. As the NewTestament recommends People should walk by faith, not by sight. ------------- ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever! |
Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2006 at 15:19
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We all know what eventually happens to blind people who wander about. ------------- |
Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2006 at 15:21
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But can you be so sure that what you see is real? ------------- Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative. Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
Posted By: Cezar
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2006 at 19:15
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I'm definitley an agnostic.
Bassically (maybe the speqeeellliing is not quite OK bu t s iii nnn ccccc e I'm on the "no rules" side what would it to for rules like spelling being functional?).
Not that I dislike/reject such rules!
Back to the topic: I'm quite out of the topic!
So there were some Gods that were supposed to .... whatever, but not to be "unproven".
Actually, I would (though I don't like it) rephrase the topic like: Unprove (your) God's inexistence.
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Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2006 at 19:16
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No, but if I was blind I wouldn't even be able to consider it. ------------- |
Posted By: Cezar
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2006 at 19:54
My answer to the topic is actually a question: "please unprove your god"s unexistance". It's the same question but it is somehow repharsed.
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Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2006 at 23:45
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Our gods have all along been mostly living persons, personified as Gods over a period of time but their history is too old & obscure to prove specially with the tradition disregard Indians for History.
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 00:01
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I think Cezar was blind when he posted his last two posts. *blind there means blind drunk. ------------- |
Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 02:21
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Below statements just my views & not an attempt to push them onto anybody.
Agnosticism can be seen as a 'path' that splits into 2 directions; atheism or religion:
 My problem is the following:
 Does agnosticism always have to lead to that?
This is how I see it:
 Sorry no time to search better photo - my point is maybe agnostics can maintain course.
It's hard to explain my reasons for not choosing religion or atheism without offending religious or atheist people.
I don't choose atheism because I think mankind's understanding of the universe is very limited, therefore I can't deny the possibility of the existence of something beyond our understanding.
This doesn't mean I have to believe in "Nessy" or "Big Foot", because we have explored & studied almost every 'corner' of our planet, but the 'universe' is a different story.
I don't choose religion because I think this possible "something beyond our understanding" I mentioned earlier is not my religion of birth.
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Posted By: Lmprs
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 09:54
To be an atheist you must talk about the nonexistence of god. If you don't even mention god, this is your case, you are a nontheist. ------------- |
Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 11:44
That would explain it. ------------- |
Posted By: Cezar
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 12:42
Not that blind, Omar. I was just trying to suggest that there are no limits to discussions about God.
The spelling rules I've mentioned - I have a plastered broken finger so I can't type as well as I used to
 . Therefore I believe that the spelling rules are not good.You, as a muslim, believe in Allah. And you also take the Quran as being some kind of ultimate writing (the manifest of God, Allah's Mein Kampf). You keep on saying that Quran is consistent and that everything written there is true. But it's only an interpretation, your view about that textbook. I find the Quran quite inconsistent and i do not take metaphoric language as being the best way to describe reality.
You stated that you can prove the existance of Allah. I doubt it and I am certain that you won't be able to come up with an all accepted, unquestionable proof.
People like consitancy they feel safe in a consistent Universe. Both atheists and believers take into account only a consistent reality. But a consistent existence is incomplete. Paradoxes are to be accounted for since there is no rule, either divine or not, that states the existence is limited. So if you believe that Allah exists and He is the omni..everything then you must accept that He can unexist Himself. A consistent God would not be doing that but what makes you think that Allah must be consistent?
On the other hand, we humans rely on consistency, so a proof about God would require consistency, otherwise we would no accept it. But you can't have that because you would have to limit the omni attribute of God.
If you define God as a superior entity limited to creating/administering consistent universes then you may find a proff of it's existence. But that would also mean that you may escape His rule by fading into inconsistency. If God is just a ruler then He might/must/could be challenged. Either to overthrow Him or to establish new rules through negociation.
Zeus was a consistent god, limited, and was challenged. Actually people and lesser gods were fighting against him on a daily basis. Even his wife was playing tricks on him. But this kind of gods are not what Allah or the Christian God are about, are they?
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 13:03
ah, ok, I understand your point now. I agree that there's a theoretical difference, but in practice I'd consider a nonexistant god and a meaningless god virtually the same. ------------- |
Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2006 at 19:48
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Mixcoatl is right; in practice, a non-existent god and a meaningless god is virtually the same.
Maybe there's a split within the agnostic community; those who consider an unproven god meaningless, and those who consider an unproven god meaningful (to a certain extent), is that possible?
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Posted By: The Philosopher
Date Posted: 15-Nov-2006 at 22:44
| The thing is.. That there is obviously more than one religion.. and the religion that there are no gods.. thus.. someone MUST be wrong.. There have been studies that have indeed shown that prayer for patients in hospitals does prove affective, the the rejuvination of the patient, but then, athiests could also argue that this could be a feeling of oneness with another human being, that a mental support, though relized or not, can help another.. and i also agree with that, although i am a christian. Who can know the fathoms of the mind?? afterall we only use roughly 10 percent of our brains right?? I do not believe that there is anything paranormal, or fake, about ESP. I merely believe that it is an untapped recourse of the mind. Thus, the mental support for patients in prayer, could be argued as somthing of this sort. |
Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 03:37
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Just something I ran into - not sure about it:
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Posted By: King Kang of Mu
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 08:15
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"God is a concept by which we measure our pain" John Lennon
------------- http://www.allempires.net/forum/forums.html |
Posted By: Adalwolf
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 16:14
Yes! That is exactly what I was saying earlier in the thread! Religion is not based on proof; it is based on faith! |
Posted By: ulrich von hutten
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 16:28
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Gott ist Tot*
*Lord is dead
based on
 Friedrich Nietzscheand we've killed him (not Nitsche but God)
 -------------
http://imageshack.us">
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Posted By: King Kang of Mu
Date Posted: 17-Nov-2006 at 06:33
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"Love for one is barbarity because it is excersised in expense of all others, Love for God also." Nietzsche 'Beyond Good and Evil'   ------------- http://www.allempires.net/forum/forums.html |
Posted By: The Philosopher
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2006 at 20:51
| I compare love with hate.. however wierd that may sound to some.. |
Posted By: Batu
Date Posted: 03-Dec-2006 at 08:33
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does Santa exist :)
------------- A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari ) |
Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 04-Dec-2006 at 23:38
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The difference between Nietzsche and God is that Nietzsche is, in fact, dead. I do find it ironically humorous, however, when people try to transform Nietzsche's beliefs into a religious system. I think part of the reason I find it so funny is that I actually used to be an adherent.
As a former agnostic myself, I agree with Pinguin and Emperor Barbarossa as to the nature of agnosticism vis a vis atheism.
As to proving or disproving the existence of God, I cannot help but feel a bit disinterested. I believe that God is sufficiently able to prove His own existence. He has proven it to those who have listened and will prove it to those who listen in the future. Ultimately he will prove it to the whole world, which will be forced to listen. May He, in His lovingkindness, have mercy on us all, believers as well as non-believers.
-Akolouthos
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Posted By: gremlinlord
Date Posted: 11-Dec-2006 at 17:18
| I think too that it is a matter of what people believe, and doesn't need to be necessarily proven...trying to convince someone to believe in God, hasn't history shown us that it never works? I agree with Akolouthos--if people believe, then they will have God, and for those who don't, then there is no God. |
Posted By: perikles
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2006 at 23:28
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the question if the God is exist (Christian god, Allah. etc) is wrong. If God is exists it would be an entity outside ourtime and space borders. And nobody would be able to reach it. We have signs for the existence of god no prooves ------------- Samos national guard. 260 days left. |
Posted By: Batu
Date Posted: 17-Dec-2006 at 04:22
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if there must be a creator,who created God?
------------- A wizard is never late,nor he is early he arrives exactly when he means to :) ( Gandalf the White in the Third Age of History Empire Of Istari ) |
Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 17-Dec-2006 at 15:05
Most religions get around this issue by stating that there has never been a point in time without God. He has always existed and will always exist. This isn't too disimilar to Big Bang Theorists who are asked what was space like before the Big Bang. They will just state that it is impossible to ask that question since space did not come into existence until the Big Bang. Also, if you look at religions with a Cyclical time view, such as Hinduism. They don't need a creator since there is no defined "beginning" you can just follow a circular pattern of creation. Basically, it is in the definition of "God" to create the first action. This is just taken for granted by established religious and scientific thought. Of course philosophical thought still debates this, but as we all know philosophy by definition doesn't give us any answers. ------------- Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative. Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
Posted By: perikles
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2007 at 05:26
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there is not start point
So God always existed. ------------- Samos national guard. 260 days left. |
Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2007 at 10:19
Maybe it was because I wasn't baptized, does he ignore those who aren't?
Well, at this point in life, I find it hard for me to ever believe in a god, it just seems impossible for me to believe as it does for goblins, angels, and smurfs and whatever else came from the human imagination. Like I always say though, I wouldn't mind believing in a all loving god, it'd atleast make life easier knowing someone is watching over you. ------------- "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey 
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Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 04:27
If this questions isn't too personal, did you ever get it? ------------- |
Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 10:01
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No, I didn't. But thats not one of the factors that made me disbelieve in him. I just thought he didn't talk to people at all, and I remember having that train of thought through the times I believed. I thought he only spoke to people thousands of years ago, since in the Bible you always read stories of people communicating with him in their time.
------------- "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 07-Jan-2007 at 19:51
Noooo! Stop the lies! Santa exists! No, don't say anything... not listening...not listening!!! Ok, sorry for the outburst. Believing God does not require proof. That's the definition of faith. ------------- http://swagbucks.com/refer/Malachi"> 
Join us. |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 07-Jan-2007 at 21:53
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The creating power of everything we have has been known to human's since we were first created. We've always had faith, always began with monotheism, followed by some kind of destortion followed by the realision and logic of monotheism again and this pattern keep's repeating. All terms such as "proove", "discover", "believe" are human terms with flawed human contexts, the only perfect thing is nature and its laws which are never broken and never fail. The creation of nature, of the universe, of the world of life is perfect, as a human its very difficult to understand this therefore its even more difficult to even begin to try and understand the concept of "God". If you were walking in the dessert and found a fully working flawless mechanized clock, we would call the person who tried to claim that it was just a coincidence and just happened to be there as the wacko, not the person who held a logical conviction that it was designed and created. It's better to believe then not to in my opinion, what have you got to loose? if you die and there is no God you don't loose anything but if you die and their is God then your gonna wish you did Hope and faith are human traits, in our increasingly materialistic world for some reason we dismiss such powerfull concepts as stupid, backwards, ridiculous which is unfortunate. ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2007 at 08:16
Not really. The earliest stage of religion almost everywhere appears to have been animism, which in many places has evolved to either pantheism or polytheism. In some places polytheism became henotheism (there are more gods, but one is the most important) which eventually became monotheism. In fact compared to the other types of religion, monotheism is quite rare.
"Life is too difficult/perfect therefore we won't be able to comprehend it" is exactly the flaw of intelligent design. After Newton came up with his theory of gravity, he noticed that the orbits of the planets didn't fit exactly in his theory, and that there was a slight deviation which kept them into their orbits. Newton wasn't able to explain this, and therefore attributed it to God. Nowadays science has progressed and is able to accurately expain that deviation of the planets' orbits. No thinking person addresses that to God anymore. The moral of this story: If we can't understand something that doesn't mean science cannot explain it. Attributing it to a creator is too easy a way out.
I don't see any reason to believe in something without evidence. And besides: one could say the same about the Islamic God, or about the Judaic, or about Hindu gods, Roman gods, Germanic, Aztec gods, etc. why not believe in Jupiter? if you die and there is no Jupiter you don't loose anything but if you die and their is Jupiter then your gonna wish you did ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2007 at 08:25
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While I'm sure someone has said this before, proving the existence of God is quite impossible. If you were to prove God exists, then the entity you just identified could not possibly be God. 'Proof' defies the very nature of divinity. Faith is required, which is founded in what you can observe of the world and deduce as a result of these observations. ------------- |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2007 at 08:45
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Proove God exists...
Being alive and having this amazing human body and most amazing of all life is proof... The functioning of the Earth and Universe is proof... The beauty, symetry and perfectness of nature and its rules are proof... The harmony of the Sun giving us heat, the Moon and its gravity are proof... Me being able to think about this topic and anything else, having the choice and ability to make decisions, learn and gain knowledge is proof... etc etc There is so much proof, it just depends on your perspectives, some people take these for granted and as if it's nothing special at all which is a pity for them as not being able to appreciate these miracles is a shame. ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Emperor Barbarossa
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2007 at 08:58
None of this is proof. It is just obvious statements that everybody knows (how does being able to think, or having a moon, the sun, etc. prove that there is a creator?) -------------
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2007 at 18:29
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It all depends on your perspective, just because we see, feel, experience and deal with these things everyday doesn't make it any less miraculous then it is. Sometimes when people are born rich with acess to anything they want, they don't realise what they have untill they loose it.
In my perspective what I listed among countless other reasons is proof for me.
Nobody has to agree with it, we all were given a brain, a soul and free will and can think what we wish and that's the beauty of it, the very concept of being able to disagree and debate is amazing in itself if you take the entire world and solar-system into account. ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Adalwolf
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2007 at 18:40
Who knows, maybe they are all real! Maybe God, or Gods, are just the collective energy of their believers! Maybe over time all the energy and willpower people focus on their religion manifests itself in the form of God, or Gods, or...whatever else they believe in! Ah, I know it, a crazy crackpot theory, but an interesting one, I think. I think I've read this theory in sci-fi or fantasy books. Who knows, maybe its true? ------------- Concrete is heavy; iron is hard--but the grass will prevail. Edward Abbey |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2007 at 18:49
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MixCoatl
I don't see any reason to believe in something without evidence. And besides: one could say the same about the Islamic God, or about the Judaic, or about Hindu gods, Roman gods, Germanic, Aztec gods, etc. why not believe in Jupiter? if you die and there is no Jupiter you don't loose anything but if you die and their is Jupiter then your gonna wish you did
From my perspective there is only one "creating power" and I feel that this basic understanding is expressed by mankind across the world. All cultures have a creation story, its something common to all societies. To me all the God's are just different societies interpretations of the "creating power" which we all as human's somewhere deep within us have some kind of belief or faith in.
Belief, faith, is common to humanity, I don't think it should be so easily dismissed and ridiculed its a part of us and must have a purpose and reason. ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: snowybeagle
Date Posted: 09-Jan-2007 at 01:21
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Let me reply a tongue-in-cheek to proving "my" God's existence.
Basically, "my God" is an independent entity.
Like any other person, he got his own value system.
But unlike other person, he got powers beyond human capabilities, and some beyond human imagination.
But He's God, so it's really a matter of Him telling me what to do rather than the other way round.
I don't go telling him "Here's what you do to that doubting Thomas over there... turn his hands into jelly for five minutes when I say 'Watch and learn.'"
If he wants to prove his existence to you, he could do it *himself*.
If he does not, I don't try to goad him saying "You show him, boss.", that is not smart at all. |
Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 09-Jan-2007 at 17:46
I you see the universe as being custom crafted, being made for human inhabitants (by God) I think that's illogical reasoning. The reason everything seems so 'special' is because if it wasn't we wouldn't be around to contemplate it! If the universe was made of black holes no life could be in it to marvel at those black holes. If the universe was all energy, no life would be in it to contemplate the all energy universe. Things are as they are because they must be that way for us to be around to see them not because of any detached, supernatural beings fickle whims. And this is not the anthropic principle either, human perception, indeed all life is secondary to the issue. As our scientific knowledge has increased so has our concept of scale as we humans fit into the larger picture. At first It was just the tribe, then the continent, then planet Earth, then the solar system with Earth as the center, then Copernicus showed the sun was the center of the solar system, then we thought the Milky way galaxy was all that existed, then galaxies turned into just another smaller component of the larger whole, the Universe. But it doesn't stop there by any means, for what we see to exist requires other universes, a universe of universes and a probability or evolution of sorts on a meta-universal scale. As humbling as it is the scale and perhaps significance of humanity shrinks in accordance with the magnitude of our knowledge. Universes are like grains of sand on the beach, or stars in our sky, or atoms in our body. How high does the meta scale climb? Will we ever know? Finally if you want a theological scale-conundrum to ruminate over ask yourself who created God?------------- The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 09-Jan-2007 at 21:19
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Vulkan
The reason everything seems so 'special' is because if it wasn't we wouldn't be around to contemplate it!
And that's precisely the reason why it's so "special", we are here and can think and openly contemplate, that in itself is such an amazing concept.
Us being able to use your brain to conjure and put together the ideas in your brain and express them with words is awesome in itself.
Vulkan
Finally if you want a theological scale-conundrum to ruminate over ask yourself who created God?
God is the creater of everything and all the concepts we try to understand, time, the universal laws etc
We try to understand the issue using the "knowledge" we have today, we cannot even begin to contemplate ideas such as, if time was created before time what was there?
In my perspective there was always God, nobody created God, God created everything we have, time, the universal laws of nature and is the reason we today can have this debate.
Ofcourse that's my perspective, nobody can proove or disproove it using today's science. ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: Knights
Date Posted: 09-Jan-2007 at 21:27
Exactly. If God is the Almighty creator of everything, every law, ever concept within our universe then He definatly has the power to put himself above any of the laws he has created, such as time. If God exists, His omnipotence should lead us to believe that anything and everything is possible to Him. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 08:10
Which it doesn't. Clearly there are many people who do not believe that anything and everything is possible to him, or that anything and everything is possible to another him. So if he's omnipotent (and omnibenevolent) how can he be so cruel by witholding the truth to many people? ------------- |
Posted By: Praetor
Date Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 08:25
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The truth is there for those who wish to see it.
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 11:11
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Mixcoatl
Which it doesn't. Clearly there are many people who do not believe that anything and everything is possible to him, or that anything and everything is possible to another him. That again is the beauty of it all and why were so fortunate, we have free will and have the ability to actually think, disagre, debate and challenge each other's views which helps our knowledge progress. This alone is an amazing concept. Mixcoatl So if he's omnipotent (and omnibenevolent) how can he be so cruel by witholding the truth to many people? Why must is be "him"? I'm against the genderisation of God and find it unlogical but that's my perspective on the issue. What cruelty? all cruelty is caused by us there is no point blaming others, we have free will and have the ability not to be cruel but alot of the times we are and its our choice. But we can also do good and this is also our choice. Witholding? life, the laws of the universe, time, the very fact the sun gives us life and everything operates in such perfection that we are living today. If you look at it from the perspective that all of this and everything else is actually the creation of God you realise that God is everywhere and its so amazing, fascinating and beautiful. Praetor The truth is there for those who wish to see it. Exactly ------------- “What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pine |
Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 12:28
Even if it can be explained by science, that doesn't exclude a creator from acting upon it. Everything belongs to God, every atom, every form of energy, every law of the universe, so why shouldn't he act upon his possessions.
Just because some people deny a truth doesn't mean that truth does not exist. Or would you prefer "scientific proof" where God shows himself to everyone with no room for error, to me this would seem insulting to his greatest creations, since this would mean that we do not possess the intelligence to come to the truth on our own. It would be like a teacher giving you the answers to a test because they think you'll fail, God believes we will all pass his test so he let's us come to the answers in our own time.
From my understanding of Greco-Roman mythology, even if you did believe in Jupiter, he wasn't going to stop whoring himself with mortal women and men to help you in the afterlife.
Unlogical? God has only one incarnation, that of Christ and in this incarnation he chose to be male. Therefore the ascribing of the male gender to him is highly appropriate. I agree God himself is beyond gender, but He is masculine, and he has been so since he was first described in the bible. (Actually the first description of God in the Bible is using a plural word that has the meaning of a third person singular masculine perfect.) ------------- Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative. Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 12:33
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I simply find the use of the term "he" convenient in conversation, rather than necessarily connoting gender qualities. Referring to a sentient being as "it" doesn't seem appropriate, and "he" is used in the bible.
------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 12:41
That's dodging the evidence. Every religion and non-religion can say that: "God does not exist, and that truth is there for those who wish to see it."
That's insufficient. If God was really omnipotent he could give us both free will and the ability to think, disagre, debate and challenge each other's views. Besides, you can't deny that most people who are religious are so because their parents have raised them like that. Has very little to do with free will. ------------- |
Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 12:49
Most people also, belong to the same political party of their parents, support the same sports teams,and live in the same region as their parents. I guess that means that these parents also give their children no free will. ------------- Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative. Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 10-Jan-2007 at 13:14
Whether its fascinating and beautiful its a matter of personal preconception and opinion. The painful truth however is that all life is here to cruelly consume other life in order to survive. You simply can't ignore something so visible that makes all living struggle and suffering. All organisms beings including us humans basically struggle and create ideas to escape that inglorious end. Its the most powerful instinct that influences human societies and behaviour, far more so than sex or other desires. ------------- The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao |