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Great languages for poetry

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Scholarly Pursuits
Forum Name: Linguistics
Forum Discription: Discuss linguistics: the study of languages
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1668
Printed Date: 16-Jun-2024 at 04:58
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Topic: Great languages for poetry
Posted By: Faran
Subject: Great languages for poetry
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2004 at 00:08

I don't mean to consider which languages are the best for writing poetry in, since you would need to be equally familiar with all languages.  But which ones have, so far, yielded the best poetry?  Poetry is important in cultural identity and in expressing the beauty of language, philosophy, emotion.

Persian, Latin, Italian, Classical Greek, English, Japanese, Arabic, Chinese, and Hebrew come to mind.




Replies:
Posted By: Infidel
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2004 at 11:39

"Por isso tomo ópio, é um remédio. Sou um convalescente do momento, moro no rés-do-chão do pensamento e ver passar a vida faz-me tédio." - Fernando Pessoa.

Portuguese rules!



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An nescite quantilla sapientia mundus regatur?


Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2004 at 12:13

I don't see how you can leave out French, German, Spanish and Russian.

Since that rounds out all the languages I've ever studied, I think I conclude that great poetry can be written in any language whatsoever.

You could check out some of my favourites at http://www.cleverley.org/translations - www.cleverley.org/translations .



Posted By: Ikki
Date Posted: 08-Jan-2005 at 18:33

I read (past) english, french, italian and spanish poetry

For "light" and beauty love poetry, french sound very good, then, italian.

I like english, but always sound cold.

For a more deep poetry, spanish is very good, french and italian sound trifling.

 

"Caminante, son tus huellas
el camino, y nada más;
caminante, no hay camino,
se hace camino al andar,


Al andar se hace el camino,
y al volver la vista atrás
se ve la senda que nunca
se ha de volver a pisar.


Caminante, no hay camino,
sino estelas en la mar. "

Translation:

"Wanderer, your footsteps are
the road, and nothing more;
wanderer, there is no road,
the road is made by walking.
 
By walking one makes the road,
and upon glancing behind
one sees the path
that never will be trod again.
 
Wanderer, there is no road--
Only wakes upon the sea."

Antonio Machado (1875-1939)

 



Posted By: Teup
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2005 at 05:47

Originally posted by Faran

Persian, Latin, Italian, Classical Greek, English, Japanese, Arabic, Chinese, and Hebrew come to mind.

Old Norse, of course! How could you forget... Got a thick book crammed with this stuff at my shelf. Really a shame i can't really read it, but at least they say it's very sophisticated 



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Whatever you do, don't


Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2005 at 11:25

ARABIC is Poetry

mutanabi18.gif (10311 bytes)

 

that was for whom can read Arabic

 



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Posted By: lennel
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2005 at 12:02

Norman influence gave many nouns, like pork, beef, dame.  But the majority of words created in the last 600 yrs are from graeco-latin origin.  Modern English has hundreds of thousands of words, whereas English during the Norman times was far more limited.  Along with this most suffixes/prefixes are latin/greek.  Shakespeare alone invented scores of words and essentially all of them were from classic origin, or derived from it.



Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2005 at 01:41

Azimuth, Does the second distich say that the taste of death for a worthless thing is the same as for an important thing?



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Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2005 at 07:22
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Azimuth, Does the second distich say that the taste of death for a worthless thing is the same as for an important thing?

 

yes

 



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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2005 at 08:44
 In my opinion, the best language for peotry, which you can read and understand the easiest! You should not say anything about language which you know nothing.

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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2005 at 09:18

A poem by Rumi:

Yar mara, Qar mara, Eshgh-e jegar khar mara
Yar thoee, Qar thoee, Khajeh negahdar mara

Nuh thoee, Ruh thoee, Fateh-o maftuh thoee
Sin-e mashruh thoee, Pard-e asrar mara

Nur thoee, Sur thoee, Dolat-e mansur thoee
Morq ko tur thoee, Khasteh be menqar mara



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Posted By: Teup
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2005 at 10:52
Hmm i wonder.. isn't it so polysynthetic languages (like arabic dialects) have an advantage when it comes to poetry because phrases are more likely to rime (due to suf- and circumfixes)? At least it should make quite a difference some way I think..

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Whatever you do, don't


Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2005 at 12:17

some persian poetry i know

 

Lafz Lafz Arabas

Irani Shukaras

Turkey Hunaras

Hamash Goh Kharas

 

i dont know what all means

 

 



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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2005 at 12:59
It is obvious that you don't know what that means  It says Arabic, Persian and Turkish languages are donkey-dungs!

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Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2005 at 14:20

ops

i always thought that it meant that

the pronounciation  Arabic

The iranian is Sugar

The turkish is flower

and the rest of languages are nothing

no?

 

 

 

 

 

 



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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2005 at 00:42
Except the last line which says all three are ..., yes!

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Posted By: azimuth
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2005 at 05:51

hmmm

then i must forgot one word befor the word ( Hamash ), it should meant the others or the rest are .......

anyway it is offensive and i didnt know it

 

 

 



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Posted By: Turk
Date Posted: 29-Jan-2005 at 13:01
I got this off a Chinese fortune cookie -

"If you wish to end a relationship with your woman, recite to her a poem in Farsi"


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Posted By: Capt. Lubber
Date Posted: 30-Jan-2005 at 08:54
I don't particularly like poetry. But most things sound better if it is a language you don't understand. So for me that includes most languages except for scandinavian, english and spanish

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Loke, Attila, the grete conqueror,
Deyde in his sleep, with shame and dishonour,
Bleedinge ay at the nose in dronkenesse,
A captayin shoulde live in sobrenesse


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2005 at 20:32
if you can read Chinese, Chinese word are really fascinating, 3 words can create a better rhythm and convey the meaning so clearly while in English, that takes some time.

For the above sentence, ___________ is enough.
And listening to these poem songs from Tang and Sung really gets my emotional...


Posted By: kipchack
Date Posted: 06-Feb-2005 at 20:06

of course Turkish..

and maybe

2-) Persian

3-) Swedish

4-) Gaelic

5-) Russian



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a kipchack never dies..


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2005 at 12:46
Persian and Turkish...

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24-Mar-2005 at 09:17
IMHO, poetry can take advantage of a rich and   
expressive vocabulary and a melodic and rhythmic   
language. In a sense every language is good for
writting poems though you hardly can write poems for
the beauty of the Mediterranean coasts if you speak a
language of a people that haven't ever seen the sea,
not for a lack of imagination but for a lack of words!   
Additionally, words generates thoughts stimulus and the   
other way around. I believe that Spanish (South
America) sounds quite beautiful and inspiring, Russian
is very emotional but sounds a bit strict. English is
very hard, harsh and cold w hitch can mislead to a lack
of emotion. I would prefer not to listen poetry in
Chinese for their strict orders of accent pronunciation
and emphasis.   
Nevertheless, I strongly believe that ancient Creek   
would be the most melodic and rich language with a   
pleasant to hear pronunciation.   


Posted By: ramin
Date Posted: 26-Mar-2005 at 06:08
Some odes of http://www.okonlife.com/life/index.htm - Khayyam , (Persian philosopher, Mathematician and poet).

Literal (English)
Persian
Khayyam, if you are intoxicated with wine, enjoy!
If you are seated with a lover of thine, enjoy!
In the end, the Void the whole world employ
Imagine thou art not, while waiting in line, enjoy!
Khayaam, Agar ze baad-e masti, Khosh baash
Baa mah-o rokhi agar neshasti, Khosh baash
Chon aaghebat-e kaar-e Jahaan nisti ast
Engaar ke nisti, Cho hasti... Khosh baash

 

O friend, for the morrow let us not worry
This moment we have now (together), let us not hurry
When our time comes, we shall not tarry
With seven thousand-year-olds, our burden carry.
Ey Doost, biaa taa gham-e fardaa nakhorim
In yek dam-e omr raa ghanimat shemorim
Fardaa ke az in deire kohan dar gozarim
Baa haft(7) hezaar(thousands) saalegan ham-safarim

 

At dawn came a calling from the tavern
Hark drunken mad man of the cavern
Arise; let us fill with wine one more turn
Before destiny fills our cup, our urn.
Aamad sahari nedaa ze mei-khaane-e maa
Ke ey rend-e kharaabaani-e divaane-e maa
bar khiz; ke por konim peimaane ze mey
Zaan pish ke por konand peimaane-e maa

 

Heaven is incomplete without a heavenly romance
Let a glass of wine be my present circumstance
Take what is here now, let go of a promised chance
A drumbeat is best heard from a distance.
GOoyand kasaan behesht ba hur khosh ast
Man miguyam ke aab-e angur khosh ast
In naghd begir va dast az aan nesye bedaar
Ke aavaze dohol shenidan az dur khosh ast

 

I resolve daily that at dusk I shall repent
For a night with a cup full of wine spent.
In the presence of flowers, why shall I repent?!
In such company, I only regret I ever resolved to repent!
Har rooz bar aanam ke konam shab tobe
Az jame piale, labaa'lab tobe
Aknun ke resid vaght va mahal, tobe kojast?!
Dar mousem-e gol ze tobe Yaarab tobe!


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"I won't laugh if a philosophy halves the moon"


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 26-Mar-2005 at 06:43

Poems of Khayyam are wonderful, in the last robai, there are five Tobe with five different meanings.

konam shab tobe = to repent tonight
labaa'lab tobe = lips on your lips
tobe kojast = where are you?
ze tobe Yaarab tobe! = between you and the God, you are better!



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Posted By: Gazi
Date Posted: 26-Mar-2005 at 15:56
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

A poem by Rumi:

Yar mara, Qar mara, Eshgh-e jegar khar mara
Yar thoee, Qar thoee, Khajeh negahdar mara

Nuh thoee, Ruh thoee, Fateh-o maftuh thoee
Sin-e mashruh thoee, Pard-e asrar mara

Nur thoee, Sur thoee, Dolat-e mansur thoee
Morq ko tur thoee, Khasteh be menqar mara

When you say Rumi do you mean Mevlana Celaleddin Rumi or some other Rumi?



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“Freedom is the recognition of necessity.”-Friedrich Engels


Posted By: rhazes
Date Posted: 26-Mar-2005 at 17:11
Originally posted by Gazi

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

A poem by Rumi:

Yar mara, Qar mara, Eshgh-e jegar khar mara
Yar thoee, Qar thoee, Khajeh negahdar mara

Nuh thoee, Ruh thoee, Fateh-o maftuh thoee
Sin-e mashruh thoee, Pard-e asrar mara

Nur thoee, Sur thoee, Dolat-e mansur thoee
Morq ko tur thoee, Khasteh be menqar mara

When you say Rumi do you mean Mevlana Celaleddin Rumi or some other Rumi?



He meant Molana Jalal al-din Rumi:

Jalal al-Din Muhammad Rumi or Jalal al-Din Muhammad Balkhi (also known as Mowlavi or Moulana, meaning my guide in Iran, Central and South Asia or Mevlana meaning our guide in Turkey) ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_30" title="September 30 - September 30 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1207" title="1207 - 1207 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/December_17" title="December 17 - December 17 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1273" title="1273 - 1273 CE) was a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persia" title="Persia - Persian poet and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism" title="Sufism - Sufi mystic, who was born in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkh" title="Balkh - Balkh (then a city of the greater http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khorasan" title="Khorasan - Khorasan province, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persia" title="Persia - Persia at that time, present http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan" title="Afghanistan - Afghanistan ) and died in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konya" title="Konya - Konya (present http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey" title="Turkey - Turkey , then within the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seljuk_Empire" title="Seljuk Empire - Seljuk Empire 's territory). When the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol" title="Mongol - Mongols invaded http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia" title="Central Asia - Central Asia , his father (Baha'al din Veled) set out to Konya, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia" title="Anatolia - Anatolia within the westernmost territories of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seljuk_Empire" title="Seljuk Empire - Seljuk Empire . Rumi was 18 years old at that time. Rumi was sent to Damascus and Aleppo to obtain religious education. His father became the head of a Madrassah (religious school) and when his father died Rumi succeeded him, at the age of 25. He was trained in the religious and mystical doctrines by Syed Burhan al-Din but it was his meeting with the dervish Shams Tabriz that changed his life completely. Rumi spent most of his later years of life in Anatolia and also completed his masterpiece there. He died on December 17, 1273 in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konya" title="Konya - Konya in present day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey" title="Turkey - Turkey ; Rumi was laid to rest beside his father, and a splendid shrine was erected over his tomb.


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Posted By: coolstorm
Date Posted: 27-Mar-2005 at 02:34

in my opinion, chinese poetry is really amazing. it's attached to emotion, feeling, and lots of deep meaning in few words with rythm. however, when it's translated into other languages, it loses some most important characters.

if u dun read/ understand classical chinese, you will never be able to feel that emotion.



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Posted By: ramin
Date Posted: 27-Mar-2005 at 04:02
all poems in all languages carry emotion, feeling and deep meaning, and of course they don't mean and sound the same in another language. We cannot translate a language to another without losing some of its contents. Nothing new 'bout that.


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"I won't laugh if a philosophy halves the moon"


Posted By: Emile Boutros
Date Posted: 27-Mar-2005 at 20:51
Arabic and Persian, then Gaelic. I cannot say that I find most European language suitable for poetry. THey are very ridgid sounding and I am not sure how to describe it. They sound like tetris pieces lol. Most modern poetry in all languages sucks. Not how they sound but what they are about. Awards are given to the most medicore of writers.  


Posted By: Exarchus
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2005 at 07:43
Poetry isn't singing, all language are suitable IMO.

Then, if you look at the sounds. Then it's easier, the more there are sounds, the better it is.


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Vae victis!


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2005 at 09:10
Originally posted by rhazes

Originally posted by Gazi

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

A poem by Rumi:

Yar mara, Qar mara, Eshgh-e jegar khar mara
Yar thoee, Qar thoee, Khajeh negahdar mara

Nuh thoee, Ruh thoee, Fateh-o maftuh thoee
Sin-e mashruh thoee, Pard-e asrar mara

Nur thoee, Sur thoee, Dolat-e mansur thoee
Morq ko tur thoee, Khasteh be menqar mara

When you say Rumi do you mean Mevlana Celaleddin Rumi or some other Rumi?



He meant Molana Jalal al-din Rumi:

Jalal al-Din Muhammad Rumi or Jalal al-Din Muhammad Balkhi (also known as Mowlavi or Moulana, meaning my guide in Iran, Central and South Asia or Mevlana meaning our guide in Turkey) (September 30, 1207 - December 17, 1273 CE) was a Persian poet and Sufi mystic, who was born in Balkh (then a city of the greater Khorasan province, Persia at that time, present Afghanistan) and died in Konya (present Turkey, then within the Seljuk Empire's territory). When the Mongols invaded Central Asia, his father (Baha'al din Veled) set out to Konya, Anatolia within the westernmost territories of Seljuk Empire. Rumi was 18 years old at that time. Rumi was sent to Damascus and Aleppo to obtain religious education. His father became the head of a Madrassah (religious school) and when his father died Rumi succeeded him, at the age of 25. He was trained in the religious and mystical doctrines by Syed Burhan al-Din but it was his meeting with the dervish Shams Tabriz that changed his life completely. Rumi spent most of his later years of life in Anatolia and also completed his masterpiece there. He died on December 17, 1273 in Konya in present day Turkey; Rumi was laid to rest beside his father, and a splendid shrine was erected over his tomb.

You are right about his life, but in fact, he was Turkish. Mevlana Celaleddin Rumi was a Turkish poet who used mostly Persian language...



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Posted By: ramin
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2005 at 14:17
@ Oguzoglu;
lol, no. Read the biography one more time, it says born in Balkh, studied in Damascus, grew old and died in Turkey.



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"I won't laugh if a philosophy halves the moon"


Posted By: rhazes
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2005 at 20:33
Originally posted by Oguzoglu

Originally posted by rhazes

Originally posted by Gazi

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

A poem by Rumi:

Yar mara, Qar mara, Eshgh-e jegar khar mara
Yar thoee, Qar thoee, Khajeh negahdar mara

Nuh thoee, Ruh thoee, Fateh-o maftuh thoee
Sin-e mashruh thoee, Pard-e asrar mara

Nur thoee, Sur thoee, Dolat-e mansur thoee
Morq ko tur thoee, Khasteh be menqar mara

When you say Rumi do you mean Mevlana Celaleddin Rumi or some other Rumi?



He meant Molana Jalal al-din Rumi:

Jalal al-Din Muhammad Rumi or Jalal al-Din Muhammad Balkhi (also known as Mowlavi or Moulana, meaning my guide in Iran, Central and South Asia or Mevlana meaning our guide in Turkey) (September 30, 1207 - December 17, 1273 CE) was a Persian poet and Sufi mystic, who was born in Balkh (then a city of the greater Khorasan province, Persia at that time, present Afghanistan) and died in Konya (present Turkey, then within the Seljuk Empire's territory). When the Mongols invaded Central Asia, his father (Baha'al din Veled) set out to Konya, Anatolia within the westernmost territories of Seljuk Empire. Rumi was 18 years old at that time. Rumi was sent to Damascus and Aleppo to obtain religious education. His father became the head of a Madrassah (religious school) and when his father died Rumi succeeded him, at the age of 25. He was trained in the religious and mystical doctrines by Syed Burhan al-Din but it was his meeting with the dervish Shams Tabriz that changed his life completely. Rumi spent most of his later years of life in Anatolia and also completed his masterpiece there. He died on December 17, 1273 in Konya in present day Turkey; Rumi was laid to rest beside his father, and a splendid shrine was erected over his tomb.

You are right about his life, but in fact, he was Turkish. Mevlana Celaleddin Rumi was a Turkish poet who used mostly Persian language...



No, every academic reference notes the fact that he was ethnically Persian, and that his parents were ethnically Persian. His first language was Farsi, and he only moved on to Turkey (at age 18) when the Mongolians swept through central Asia.


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