Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Communism or Capitalism

 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 8>
Author
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Communism or Capitalism
    Posted: 22-May-2006 at 07:08
Originally posted by Lord Ranulf

Originally posted by gcle2003

 
Originally posted by Lord Ranulf

 ...and why is it that every major communist nation left..............discounting Cuba as major of course........(basicaly still a left over lost colony of the former USSR)...is still either buying or stealing tech and trying to gain access to the funds and economic bases of the captalistic/free market societies......countries..........

 
the answer....the failure of communism as a political form of government....
and dont attempt obsfucation of communism with totalatarinism.because your state and China and Vietnam to a degree remain just that.........
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
 
The only major Communist country left is China. On which the US is totally dependent for financing.
 
.......and your point is? This in no way contradicts my statement above.
 
You asserted that the communist countries left were 'trying to gain access to the funds' of other, capitalistic countries. That's true of course, because pretty well all countries, capitalist or communist, welcome investment from overseas. In your rhetoric however you failed to point out that it was no more true of communist countries than any other.
 
(In fact the only countries I can think of that have been opposed to foreign investment have been extremist ones like North Korea, Cambodia at one time, and of course the Stalinist communist ones.)
 
 
China's lending the US money (and supporting the US dollar in world markets) not the other way around.
 
.........redundency in verbal rhetoric is usualya sign of a failing arguement.
As is changing the subject. The fact that essentially I said the same thing twice does not invalidate the point (neither of course does it strengthen it).
 
I'm not in the least surprised you chose to ignore it.
 
 
(Not that that has anything really to do with the superiority of capitalism over communism or vice versa. There are a lot more fundamental economic and psychological factors involved, including the competence of the respective administrations.)
 
........competence in what fashion? measureable economic parameters....failures of 5 year plans? supporting their political idealogies?
totalitarianism control vs. democrat institutions.......?
 
As for competence, building up the infrastructure would do for a start. It's improving in China, deteriorating in the US. Outmanoeuvring the US in gaining secure access to oil supplies would be another. Pursuing sensible fiscal and budgetary strategies would be another. Increasing the internal supply of energy through hydroelectric installations would be yet another.
 
As for measurable economic parameters, GDP growth, growth in income per capita, increase in energy availability, budgetary restraint....
 
For the failure of five-year-plans - what's failed in China recently?
 
And the political things are irrelevant to the competence of the administratios.
 
However, individual freedom has been decreasing in the US, and to at least some extent increasing in China.
 
Back to Top
Lord Ranulf View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 28-Mar-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 309
  Quote Lord Ranulf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 08:59

 ...and why is it that every major communist nation left..............discounting Cuba as major of course........(basicaly still a left over lost colony of the former USSR)...is still either buying or stealing tech and trying to gain access to the funds and economic bases of the captalistic/free market societies......countries..........

 
the answer....the failure of communism as a political form of government....
and dont attempt obsfucation of communism with totalatarinism.because your state and China and Vietnam to a degree remain just that.........
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
 
The only major Communist country left is China. On which the US is totally dependent for financing.
 
.......and your point is? This in no way contradicts my statement above.
 
China's lending the US money (and supporting the US dollar in world markets) not the other way around.
 
.........redundency in verbal rhetoric is usualya sign of a failing arguement.
 
(Not that that has anything really to do with the superiority of capitalism over communism or vice versa. There are a lot more fundamental economic and psychological factors involved, including the competence of the respective administrations.)
 
........competence in what fashion? measureable economic parameters....failures of 5 year plans? supporting their political idealogies?
totalitarianism control vs. democrat institutions.......?
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-May-2006 at 06:22
Originally posted by Lord Ranulf

 ...and why is it that every major communist nation left..............discounting Cuba as major of course........(basicaly still a left over lost colony of the former USSR)...is still either buying or stealing tech and trying to gain access to the funds and economic bases of the captalistic/free market societies......countries..........

 
the answer....the failure of communism as a political form of government....
and dont attempt obsfucation of communism with totalatarinism.because your state and China and Vietnam to a degree remain just that.........
 
The only major Communist country left is China. On which the US is totally dependent for financing.
 
China's lending the US money (and supporting the US dollar in world markets) not the other way around.
 
(Not that that has anything really to do with the superiority of capitalism over communism or vice versa. There are a lot more fundamental economic and psychological factors involved, including the competence of the respective administrations.)
Back to Top
Lord Ranulf View Drop Down
Consul
Consul
Avatar

Joined: 28-Mar-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 309
  Quote Lord Ranulf Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2006 at 20:21

 

Yeah, as long as they are rich. But it is somehow OK to label poor people 'losers not worthy of surviving'.

 
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
 
who said that ........and why is it that every major communist nation left..............discounting Cuba as major of course........(basicaly still a left over lost colony of the former USSR)...is still either buying or stealing tech and trying to gain access to the funds and economic bases of the captalistic/free market societies......countries..........
 
the answer....the failure of communism as a political form of government....
and dont attempt obsfucation of communism with totalatarinism.because your state and China and Vietnam to a degree remain just that.........
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2006 at 12:22
 
Originally posted by Imperator

Originally posted by kotumeyil

Ah, I forgot to mention that the Venezuellan constitution is popularly prepared, through long debates between public institutions, civil society organizations, several minority groups, academic people, etc. It provides 50% quota for women and it's publicly accepted after everyone compromised on it. It's the most participatory constitution on the world now. 

and his sending Venezuelan citizens to Cuba for trial and imprisonment? His nationalization of industries.Havel, Albright and McCain sending a signed letter asking him to allow free and fair elections? (which he has not and thats been proven as well)

 
You have an odd idea of proof. You mean the international observers were lying? There's a vast international conspiracy to protect him?
 
Hmmm.
Chavez is a populist
 
Yes. He is also popular. Would you prefer it if he had 32% approval ratings?
.he is distributing wealth ( and not very well)
 
But rather better than the US or Britain.
 while not creating anythats capitalism and that what creates a middle class..the back bone of any free market society.
 
 
How come the US middle class now works longer hours under more stress and for lower real returns than at any time in the last 35 years?

 

do you think the Venezuelan society, under his style of management will be better off in the long run than having free market reforms?

 

 

 
Depends on the reforms.
 
If he copies the way the US has been run since the 'seventies, then they would be certainly worse off, since Americans are.
 
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2006 at 11:20
Originally posted by kotumeyil

Ah, I forgot to mention that the Venezuellan constitution is popularly prepared, through long debates between public institutions, civil society organizations, several minority groups, academic people, etc. It provides 50% quota for women and it's publicly accepted after everyone compromised on it. It's the most participatory constitution on the world now. 

and his sending Venezuelan citizens to Cuba for trial and imprisonment? His nationalization of industries.Havel, Albright and McCain sending a signed letter asking him to allow free and fair elections? (which he has not and thats been proven as well) Chavez is a populist .he is distributing wealth ( and not very well) while not creating anythats capitalism and that what creates a middle class..the back bone of any free market society.

 

do you think the Venezuelan society, under his style of management will be better off in the long run than having free market reforms?

 

 

Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2006 at 08:22
Life under a free market:
 
Three men in jail started talking and discovered they all owned gas
stations.

The first one said, "I set my prices a couple of cents higher than my
competitors.  I'm in here for price-gouging and profiteering."

"I set my prices a couple of cents lower than my competitors.  I'm in
here for predatory pricing," said the second.

"I set my prices the same as my competitors'," replied the third.  "I'm
in here for running a cartel!"

Back to Top
Pieinsky View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 21-Apr-2006
Location: Ireland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 207
  Quote Pieinsky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2006 at 06:52

 Gerenalissimus Sinclair wrote

Communism, without a doubt, wins. In addition to being politically stable and propre, can cure greed, narcissism, materialism and all other capitalist plagues that I see on a daily basis and it makes me want to vomit. And second of all, most of you think communism is bad becuase you have been swayed by the American propaganda machine.
 
 
 
First of all greed is not necessarily wrong. One is greedy when they help another person partially because they get a good feeling from it. You are being greedy in the first place to want communism as the system of government in countries. I am being greedy to want capitalism as the form of government in countries.Wink

 

 

Material Hierarchy cannot be destroyed.

(1)Its against hierarchy and materialistic hierarchy. Hierarchy is a huge element in society. When youre a tiny tot you will inevitably notice that your parents and older siblings have access to certain tangible goods, which you are not allowed. You also notice that daddy and mummy can order you around. You immediately make a link between power and materialism. And that material objects often contain status symbolism. Communism curtails your ability to expand your material arsenal. If the neighbour next door to you has the same amount of goods as you then who has higher status. Him/She or you? Since communist countries cant stop their baby citizens from experiencing this they end up implanting this link between material wealth and status. When the baby grows up to be an adult the link is still there but now you cant have any more then anyone else. Now, because the link is still apparent those communist citizens who achieve government office cant help becoming corrupt. Communism is like an apple with a worm inside that slowly eats its way down to the core.

(2) Lack of proper competition

 

Communism cannot create internal economic competition. As there are thresholds to how much money its citizens are allowed to make. The only way for communist governments to foster and nurture this necessary economic competition is to use another country as the competitor. Sadly this may produce racism amongst communist citizens towards their nation competitor. Capitalism Nations have often been used as this economic rival.

 

(3) Too powerful corporation.

Communism creates a government business that can exploit unethically and charge unfair high amounts to its customers because it has no business competitor.

 

 

(4) No economic safety net.

 

Unlike capitalism when there is an economic depression there is few citizen willing to help the poorer who would be in the most dire of situations of all the income levels, why because everyone in communism supposedly has the same affluence level. While in capitalism if there is an economic slide the rich wont suffer as much as the poor and will be able to help the poor by donating their money. It is the rich who act as the economic safety net. If communism doesnt have this rich class they have no economic safety net. This system was evident during the potatoes blight in Ireland where many of the wealthy former British families who have title of lord acted like the walking stick for the suffering poor.

 

 

And second of all, most of you think communism is bad because you have been swayed by the American propaganda machine.

 

Clearly I have rational reasons to prefer capitalism to communism.

 

Capitalism is the superior system at being helpful to its citizens. Communism is an evil disguised as a socialist movement. Communism has manufactured a recurring beat of dictators in denial. And as someone ( not myself) previously wrote communism is a religion, it leaders are made divine.LOL

 



Edited by Pieinsky - 20-May-2006 at 06:56
Back to Top
gcle2003 View Drop Down
King
King

Suspended

Joined: 06-Dec-2004
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 7035
  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-May-2006 at 06:13
Originally posted by Roadkill

-Capitalism and communism have both failed
 
Spot on.
 
Originally posted by Gerenalissimus Sinclair

    Communism, without a doubt, wins. In addition to being politically stable and propre, can cure greed, narcissism, materialism and all other capitalist plagues
 
Nothing can 'cure' them. No social system ever has: they're part of the human condition, not due to capitalism.
 
 
that I see on a daily basis and it makes me want to vomit. And second of all, most of you think communism is bad becuase you have been swayed by the American propaganda machine.
 
May be true of some, especially Americans. For most however I would think it is due to having observed what happens whenever 'communism' is put into practice.
 
If by 'Communism' you mean a theoretical system that has never actually been put into practice anywhere, then there is, of course, no evidence that it would work or not work.
 
Unless you first get rid of the greed and the ambition and the power-seeking and all that stuff.
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 20-May-2006 at 06:13
Back to Top
Guests View Drop Down
Guest
Guest
  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2006 at 22:48
    Communism, without a doubt, wins. In addition to being politically stable and propre, can cure greed, narcissism, materialism and all other capitalist plagues that I see on a daily basis and it makes me want to vomit. And second of all, most of you think communism is bad becuase you have been swayed by the American propaganda machine.
Back to Top
Pieinsky View Drop Down
Shogun
Shogun
Avatar

Joined: 21-Apr-2006
Location: Ireland
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 207
  Quote Pieinsky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2006 at 15:57

Communism creates a government business that can exploit unethically and charge unfair high amounts to it's customers because it has no business competitor.

Back to Top
Bosniakum View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 12-May-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 76
  Quote Bosniakum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-May-2006 at 15:33
Titoism is the best.Clap
"I krv svoju za Bosnu moju"
Back to Top
Roadkill View Drop Down
Samurai
Samurai
Avatar

Joined: 13-May-2006
Location: Norway
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 106
  Quote Roadkill Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-May-2006 at 18:12
 -Capitalism and communism have both failed, what we have in place now is Social Capitalism.

 -Capitalism needed a certain Hitler to get back on it's feet while Communism just doesn't work due to Human Nature. The reason why capitalism crashed was because the companies slashed and slashed away at wages until the employees didn't have enough to buy the products they produced. People were fired and that only made things worse. Neither Capitalism or Communism worked in their original form. Social Capitalism makes sure that people can survive on what they are paid. Communism has some survivors such as China and Cuba(Though China is moving more and more towards a free market democracy and Cuba is sort of a backwater).

 -And in the future things will get even worse for Capitalism. If robots with the ability to perform unskilled labour are produced everything will fall apart as about 50% of the working population will end up getting fired. As the future approaches a new Government form will have to be created.
"Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former."
-- Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
Back to Top
Richard XIII View Drop Down
Colonel
Colonel
Avatar

Joined: 06-Jun-2005
Location: Romania
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 651
  Quote Richard XIII Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2006 at 11:08
Originally posted by Americanus

Thats one of the advantages to communism every one is guranteed a job, money and the basics of life.


It's a joke?
"I want to know God's thoughts...
...the rest are details."

Albert Einstein
Back to Top
Americanus View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 16-Feb-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 66
  Quote Americanus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-May-2006 at 10:48
Thats one of the advantages to communism every one is guranteed a job, money and the basics of life.
"Give Me Liberty or Give me death"
Back to Top
kotumeyil View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 21-Jun-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1494
  Quote kotumeyil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2006 at 15:11

Ah, I forgot to mention that the Venezuellan constitution is popularly prepared, through long debates between public institutions, civil society organizations, several minority groups, academic people, etc. It provides 50% quota for women and it's publicly accepted after everyone compromised on it. It's the most participatory constitution on the world now. 



Edited by kotumeyil
[IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg">
Back to Top
kotumeyil View Drop Down
Chieftain
Chieftain
Avatar
Retired AE Moderator

Joined: 21-Jun-2005
Location: Turkey
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1494
  Quote kotumeyil Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2006 at 15:05

I think Chavez brought about a new way of communism. He's popularly elected for several times in referandum and he establishes communes, which are organized around cooperatives. They collectively produce; people are supplied with cheap organic vegetables and fruit, free education and healthcare, public land is distributed among poor farmers. the country's petrol revenues are spent for providing better living conditions for the poor. Literacy rate increases fastly. Along with these, though the media cartels are against the government and they had participated in the coup against Chavez and intentionally manipulated facts against him (which are proved), those media institutions are not banned or censored. Instead Chavez uses the packs of the cheap or free fruit for his propaganda (because the media oligopol is against him)... I think he provides the solution for those complains about "non-democratic communist regimes".

[IMG]http://www.maksimum.com/yemeicme/images/haber/raki.jpg">
Back to Top
Americanus View Drop Down
Knight
Knight
Avatar

Joined: 16-Feb-2006
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 66
  Quote Americanus Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-May-2006 at 14:21

The reason I would prefer Capatilsm over comunism is because of finicail freedom and the right to vote who your leaders are.

"Give Me Liberty or Give me death"
Back to Top
Genghis View Drop Down
Caliph
Caliph
Avatar

Joined: 02-Aug-2004
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2656
  Quote Genghis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2006 at 19:59

thats a good start, i dont find anyone threatening

The way you talk about sure seems to me like you do.

So now, would you use just economic measures as the only way to judge success in a country but not a person?

No, but they are useful for comparison

You are a freak, then. Psychological research shows that humans' happiness is related to their relative wealth and status. If they have one car while the next door neighbours have two, they are not happy. That's why consumer societies come around.

I'm not saying I don't want certain things I see other people have, but I don't go so far as trying to have the government take what's theirs and give it to me.  If I want something I'll work for it.

But it is somehow OK to label poor people 'losers not worthy of surviving'.

You confuse poverty with potential.

Great. I hope you will follow your own teachings and not take any medicine next time you get sick. If this is your primary concern, why don't you like the pre-history, when natural selection had a far stronger effect on human life?

And why do you care about improving the human race? I thought you were not Nazi or an eugenicist? The truth is you don't care about natural selection or anything like that. You are just desperate to justify Paris Hilton's dog having 100 dollar manicure while black children are dying in the same city.

Natural selection changes based on what nature is.  Now we have our "concrete jungles" which have altered the nature of natural selection.

Who are you to say what is natural and what is artificial?

You're splitting hairs.  Natural selections emerges from the environment and people's ability to cope with it.  Artificial selection is when the selection is deliberately planned.

I say Paris Hilton is useless

That's why she shouldn't get student loans or any other such assistance.

so is her dog

Wouldn't your socialist utopia have free veterinary as well as health care?

facing an identity crisis greater than some African countries with hundreds of hostile tribes within.

That's absurd.  Show me some concrete evidence of that and maybe I'll consider it.

The multiculturalism that destroyed many an Empires is destroying this one as well.

Liberals are the ones who support all various "multicultural" nonsense.

Member of IAEA
Back to Top
vulkan02 View Drop Down
Arch Duke
Arch Duke
Avatar
Termythinator

Joined: 27-Apr-2005
Location: U$A
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1835
  Quote vulkan02 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2006 at 17:33
Originally posted by Genghis

Nope they don't because Europeans pay heavier taxes than us and at least the medical coverage for most are covered. The pensions for people like me and you provided we lead a middle class life, will go up in smoke unless you have a great porfolio or if half of your check goes into you 401k plan. What Europeans have a problem with is their aging population and lower birthrate and you can't blame them at that because they are thinking more ahead than we are.

Look at Germany, a quarter of their budget goes to paying off debts that were accrued to pay for their social system, which is slowing down their economic growth.  They've also been moving in a more liberal direction to get their house in order.



So what the national debt here is as high as ever as well that doesn't mean anything at all. And most of this was thanks to Regean and his conservative buddies. He hid the outrageous debt he left behind(The highest in the history of America) with his supposed successes such as "defeating" the Soviets which in truth wore themselves out it wasn't Reagan who did it.

Im not saying other countries dont have internal problems and im not saying Americans problems are the greatest of all. What am I trying to bring out is that today America has become a big question mark and it is facing an identity crisis greater than some African countries with hundreds of hostile tribes within. What is America? No one knows what it is but it seems its Italy in this corner, Ireland in the other, Haitian in that one and so on and on. So its not really a nation but a nation of nations. The multiculturalism that destroyed many an Empires is destroying this one as well.
Its no surprise we only have two political parties to choose from with minimal differences, if these people would truly put their thoughs and differences we would have a secession of many areas at once in 2008.


.. and to add to Beylerbeli's comments these 500 billonairs extert their control of the media to advance this notion that America is the best country in the world. For them IT IS the best country in the world because they own it and everyone else along with it. Millions and millions of idiots believe this because they haven't been in another country anyways thus the possibility of a revolution is squashed by these socio-economic criminals.


The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon
Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply Page  <1234 8>

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.078 seconds.