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Israel vs Lebanon, the sequel

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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Israel vs Lebanon, the sequel
    Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 08:33
Originally posted by Leonidas


actaully there has been accusations it was planned out before



there was an extensive article on the BBC as well. It appears that Israel got the green light for the invasion and closely coordinated its plans with the Bush administration even before the two soldiers were abducted.

As I said before, only naives would believe that this invasion was just because of two soldiers. Something much deeper lied behind it.
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 08:27
one is a religoius bigot that has wet dreams about crusades, if that helps.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 07:51

I can understand erkut's posts, being an Israeli and having recently been in a war, means that objectivity goes out of the window. That said, I cannot even begin to comprehend the motivation behind the post of some 'supporters" of Israel, even when presented with the facts.

 
 
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 07:33
Originally posted by erkut

Hezbollah is not the only terorist organiztion in Middle East.

isreal is not the only victim whats your point?

you fail to understand or ignore the fact: one organisation actions are not connected to the other, nor do they give isreal that jusification, you have failed in linking them and you lied with your pictures. hezbollah needs to earn such titles as "terrorist", what others have done dont earn it that title. get it? so try to string a sentance that moves beyond "us victims their bad" because (if you can*t* make the connection in any other way) you imply that being arab/muslim is what it takes.

So far no one has succesfully qualified why hezbollah are terrorist, without either showing doublel standards towards isreal's methods of war or relying on the fact they are bearded arab men. can anyone that knows what they are talking about take on that challenge

*edit


Edited by Leonidas - 16-Aug-2006 at 09:01
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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 07:19
Originally posted by bg_turk

Originally posted by Sparten

Of course it seems that Israel considers Arabs as second class citizens.


despicable
 
I also heard a report about the lack of air raid shelters for the arab israeli citizens,or is that propoganda. Can any one confirm this.
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 07:17
Originally posted by docyabut

 Ok so why did the Palestinians kidnapped and firer rockets into Israel weeks earlier if  this was not  all planned  out already ?


actaully there has been accusations it was planned out before

"The US government was closely involved in planning the Israeli campaign in Lebanon, even before Hizbullah seized two Israeli soldiers in a cross border raids in July. American and Israeli officials met in the spring, discussing plans on how to tackle Hizbullah, according to a report published yesterday.

The veteran investigative journalist Seymour Hersh writes in the current issue of the New Yorker magazine that Israeli government officials travelled to the US in May to share plans for attacking Hizbullah.

Quoting a US government consultant, Hersh said: "Earlier this summer ... several Israeli officials visited Washington, separately, 'to get a green light for the bombing operation and to find out how much the United States would bear'."

The Israeli action, current and former government officials told Hersh, chimed with the Bush administration's desire to reduce the threat of possible Hizbullah retaliation against Israel should the US launch a military strike against Iran.

"A successful Israeli Air Force bombing campaign ... could ease Israel's security concerns and also serve as a prelude to a potential American pre-emptive attack to destroy Iran's nuclear installations," sources told Hersh.

Yesterday Mr Hersh told CNN: "July was a pretext for a major offensive that had been in the works for a long time. Israel's attack was going to be a model for the attack they really want to do. They really want to go after Iran."

An unnamed Pentagon consultant told Hersh: "It was our intention to have Hizbullah diminished and now we have someone else doing it."

Officials from the state department and the Pentagon denied the report. A spokesman for the National Security Council told Hersh that "The Israeli government gave no official in Washington any reason to believe that Israel was planning to attack."

Hersh has a track record in breaking major stories. He was the first to write about the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq and has written extensively about the build-up to the war in Iraq. He made his name when he uncovered the massacre at My Lai during the Vietnam war. Most recently he has written about US plans for Iran, alleging that US special forces had already been active inside the country."link

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  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 07:16

Hezbollah is not the only terorist organiztion in Middle East.

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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 05:54
Originally posted by ok ge

 
Thank you for your objectivity. Who created the monster? Arabs created the monster? Well isn't this the same argument that applies to Hezbollah? Who created Hezbollah? Isn't it 1982 Israel invasion of Southern Lebanon? 

Originally posted by erkut

  So why did israel invade Lebnan in 1982? Becouse terorists were killing jews(İsraels London Ambasador for ex.)

either you dont know your own region or your are deliberatly confusing everything becase you cant explain/justify everything. what has the PLA got to do with hezbollah? your confusing different groups with different forms of islam, different sponsers and different politics.


Get that right and then talk about hezbollah.



Edited by Leonidas - 16-Aug-2006 at 05:57
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 05:49
Originally posted by erkut

 
Hezbollah is a terorist organization! You could show your photos and i could mines but everytime İsrael had fight to defend her self.(1948-1956-1967-1973 and now)
those pictures are misleading, are those victims of hezbollah or other arab organisations? this is lies Erkut. That magazine cover (with what looks like a doctored picture), shows what level of reading material you base your reality on, but it explains alot. Hezbollah didnt blow up buses or use suicides against isreali civilans as far as i know, no need to mix them up with other bearded jihadis from gaza or the west bank.

(They are not all the same, not even just because you say so)

BTW i had greiving isreali soldiers in my post, partly for some balance which you seem to lack, and because they are the biggest isreali group killed in this war. Such a pity, having the young die for a pointless war that acheived nothing.

As you seem to be blinded by your own past victimhood ill explain my point, any bombing of civilians (or the infrastracture that supports them)  for 'revenge' or pay back is an act of terrorism. both sides can hang their heads in shame for such behavoiur. No excuses!


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  Quote erkut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 05:19
 
Originally posted by ok ge

 
Thank you for your objectivity. Who created the monster? Arabs created the monster? Well isn't this the same argument that applies to Hezbollah? Who created Hezbollah? Isn't it 1982 Israel invasion of Southern Lebanon?  

So why did israel invade Lebnan in 1982? Becouse terorists were killing jews(İsraels London Ambasador for ex.)

Or could you tell me why did Lebnan civil war started in 1975? Becouse Palestinan terorists kicked out from Jordan(by the Jordan) in 1970. But those terorists were still have camps in Lebnan. So they start a war against Lebnan Cristians to take control of the land. Becouse they thougt if they got controll of Lebnan they could attack to İsrael.(But they destroyed the Lebnan and killed too many peopels, and they seperated the Lebnan)

Originally posted by ok ge

 What would you do if a group of people started to immigrate to your place and suddently deciding to establish their new estate on the majority of the inhabitant of your place?   
 

There were jews living in there before immigrations. And first crowded immigrates comed in 1880(First Aliyah) All jews immigrate there legaly. They had permission from Ottoman and British empires. When jews immigrated Trks or GB were in charge not Arabs. And in 1948 both communuty had right to crate their states.(by the observation of UN)

 
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 04:29
Originally posted by R_AK47

Originally posted by Northman

I know the parallel is a bit off - but look at it this way.
 
In Madrid, London and southern Lebanon terrorists are hiding between civilians.
In order to kill a few terrorists, Israel chose to destroy southern Lebanon and kill civilians by the thousands.
Why isnt the same happening in Madrid and London? - some people could easily get the idea, that the civilians are more worth there?
 
Why is Israel "forced" to use methods in Lebanon that are totally unacceptable elsewhere?
 
 
Your parallel is ridiculously off.  Terrorists are not launching rockets into Israel from Madrid or London, so Israel has no need to intercede in these situations.  Even if muslim terrorists did find some way to attack Israel from Madrid or London the governments of England and Spain would certainly take swift and decisive action against the terrorists.  Again, Israel would probably not need to get invovled.  Lebanon has done nothing to stop the terrorists and instead allowed them to conduct there terrorist activity from Lebanese soil.  Lebanon got what it deserved when Israel invaded to stop the terrorists.
 
You may call it ridiculous - I wont even argue that.
But you miss my point (maybe I wasnt specific enough).
 
I'm not talking about Israel attacking all over the world - but the methods they are using. The governments of England and Spain, would they destroy a whole neighborhood to take out one house where some terrorists might hide?
 
Every Lebanese civilian they have killed had a family and thus, the Israeli have furtilized the ground for even more terror to emerge.
 
Israel has a right to exsist - but so does all its neighbors.
Why is the 40 year Israeli occupation of Palestine acceptable?
Are they "forced" to uphold this as well? 
Its the source, excuse and generator for the modern kind of terror we have experienced since Munich 1972.
Its also the cause for tens (or hundreds) of thousands refugees spreading all over Europe (and the world) and thus exporting the terror to these countries who have taken the refugees in.
 
How can you even start to claim their methods, by any standard, to be acceptable?
I would think 9-11 could be a hint for us westeners to a different approach - apparently and sadly, it was not!
 
 


Edited by Northman - 16-Aug-2006 at 04:35
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 03:23
Originally posted by Sparten

Of course it seems that Israel considers Arabs as second class citizens.


despicable
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 03:14
Of course it seems that Israel considers Arabs as second class citizens.
 
And there is a legal aparthied in Israel.
 
Though hopefully that is changing.
 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 03:05

This was war was if you will excuse the crudeness, was Olmert trying to show his manhood. Sharon, for all his faults was a military man first. He would have known that such a war was untenable, and would have after the odd airstrike, exchanged prisoners.

 
Well Israel is less secure than it was on July 12, Hizb has a legitamacy it did not have on July 12. Great going guys!
 
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 02:25
Omar, those figures are disputable .

I agree, highly disputable. Those are the IDF figures
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1227264,00.html?cnn=yes

Yes, we can sit around thousands of kilometers aways and ask What defines a victory?
And while we are doing this, the Israelis are holding inquirys and sacking their commanders, and the Lebanese are shooting off fireworks.

The armoured might of the Israeli army which can defeat all its neighbours in 6 days, failed to capture 30km of lebanon.
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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 00:14
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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Aug-2006 at 00:12
Omar, those figures are disputable .  
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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 22:57
Israel holds thousands of Lebanese and Palestinians civilians without trial in their prisions.
Israel walks in takes more at their will. Hamas and Hezbullah stroll in and capture and few soldiers and you think it starts a war?
Pah!
Until Israels vast overraction this was tit-for-tat exchange. Israel had the option not to cause a war, but it chose to start one and it got defeated.

Hezbullah just beat (or at least held) the IDF in a convenional war.
Take note, what is not much more that a citizens milita stood fought and beat the IDF with all the weapons money can buy and a few it can't.

That has much bigger implications than anything else, much bigger than the Israei-Arab wars.
It means that for the first time in 100 years, it is possible to win a conventional war without superior technology, without air superiority, without armour and without resorting to guerilla or terrorist attacks.

As far as the pictures shown here , why not show all the mutilated  bodies of  Israel`s children that were killed, especially the two arab children that were killed by hebolla that  they so apologize for . why ?because any desent civilization would  show more  respect  for the dead. Not just to show them  just to get sympathy that they so caused.

43 Israeli civilians died! 43! Thousands of Lebanese died.


Edited by Omar al Hashim - 15-Aug-2006 at 22:58
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  Quote docyabut Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 22:40
 cok qoute-The Katyusha rockets fired on the kidnapping event were not intended to hit civilian targets more than provide a distracting coverage of the kindnapping plan which worked ,
 
 Ok so why did the Palestinians kidnapped and firer rockets into Israel weeks earlier if  this was not  all planned  out already ?
 
 
 As far as the pictures shown here , why not show all the mutilated  bodies of  Israel`s children that were killed, especially the two arab children that were killed by hebolla that  they so apologize for . why ?because any desent civilization would  show more  respect  for the dead. Not just to show them  just to get sympathy that they so caused.
 
 
 
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  Quote R_AK47 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Aug-2006 at 20:55
Originally posted by Northman

I know the parallel is a bit off - but look at it this way.
 
In Madrid, London and southern Lebanon terrorists are hiding between civilians.
In order to kill a few terrorists, Israel chose to destroy southern Lebanon and kill civilians by the thousands.
Why isnt the same happening in Madrid and London? - some people could easily get the idea, that the civilians are more worth there?
 
Why is Israel "forced" to use methods in Lebanon that are totally unacceptable elsewhere?
 
 
Your parallel is ridiculously off.  Terrorists are not launching rockets into Israel from Madrid or London, so Israel has no need to intercede in these situations.  Even if muslim terrorists did find some way to attack Israel from Madrid or London the governments of England and Spain would certainly take swift and decisive action against the terrorists.  Again, Israel would probably not need to get invovled.  Lebanon has done nothing to stop the terrorists and instead allowed them to conduct there terrorist activity from Lebanese soil.  Lebanon got what it deserved when Israel invaded to stop the terrorists.


Edited by R_AK47 - 15-Aug-2006 at 20:56
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