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Development of French language |
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Cryptic 
Arch Duke 
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 05-Jul-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1962 |
 Quote Reply
 Topic: Development of French languagePosted: 07-Mar-2011 at 22:39 |
Which of the river names are pre Indo European? Are they in the southwest?
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Diviacus
Knight 
Joined: 06-Mar-2011 Location: France Online Status: Offline Posts: 73 |
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Posted: 07-Mar-2011 at 16:37 |
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I know that the Alanic migration is an historical fact. I don't want to deny it.
We know they arrived in the Gaul at the beginning of the 5th century.
Historians assume they were several thousands of warriors so let's say between 15 000 and 40 000 people.
The discussion is the Alanic influence on the French language.
Why did they not influence the French language ?: because they were very few, compared to the several millions of Gaulish people (speaking or Celtic or Latin languages).
Why did they give their names to villages ?: because, when they establish in a place, this place was named by the other inhabitants "town of the Alans", which gave a dozen of villages nowadays called "Allainville", "Allainvilliers" or "Alaincourt" (with one or two "l").
Why is it very unlikely they gave the name of "Don" to a nowadays French river ?: because we know that rivers names are naturally much older than village names. The river Don existed before they arrived. In France, most of rivers names are pre-Celtic, even pre-indo-european, and only few are Celtic, even if the Celtic language has been used for more than 1000 years, much before the Alans came.
Moreover, the "Don" name comes from indo-european danu (Don, Donets, Danube, ...) meaning "river", and there is no need of Alans to have such a name in France.
And by the way, around the French "Don" river, there is no toponym which can be attributed to Alans.
But be sure I have nothing against the Alans
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Cyrus Shahmiri
Administrator 
King of Kings Joined: 07-Aug-2004 Location: Iran Online Status: Offline Posts: 6240 |
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Posted: 07-Mar-2011 at 14:25 |
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I don't know why we should deny the Alanic influence, you yourself mentioned some place names with Alanic origin in the northern France, the Alanic migration from the south of Russia to the north of France is an undeniable historical fact, for example we know the largest and most important river in the land of Alans is Don River: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_River_(Russia) and we see in remembrance of their original land, they named one of the most important rivers in their new land "Don River": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_(Vilaine)
 Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 07-Mar-2011 at 14:28 |
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Diviacus
Knight
Joined: 06-Mar-2011 Location: France Online Status: Offline Posts: 73 |
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Posted: 07-Mar-2011 at 09:35 |
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Certainly, there is a certain number of Iranian (or Persian) words in French. But that does not mean they came through Alans.
By instance :
- Tulip : the flower has been introduced in Europe at the end of the XVIth century, and the word "Tulipa"in latin has been created at that time (from persian word)
- Check : the game has been introduced in France during the Middle Age, coming from Persia, throug Arabic countries and Spain
- Hasard : comes from arabic words al-zahr (dices game) and is known in French only since the XIIth century.
- Bronze : the French word comes from the Italian one (bronzo) and has been attested only from the XIIIth century
Almost all the words you mentioned are words used in many languages, so Alans are not responsible of that.
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Cyrus Shahmiri
Administrator
King of Kings Joined: 07-Aug-2004 Location: Iran Online Status: Offline Posts: 6240 |
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Posted: 07-Mar-2011 at 08:11 |
Ok, I know neither French nor Alanic language but I know Persian and a little English, the clear fact is that Alanic was an Iranian language, so there are certainly a large number of similar words in Persian and Alanic languages, there is a big distance between Persia and France and as far as I know there was no cultural relation between the people of these two countries, but if you look at an English dictioanry then you will see that most of Persian-origin words in English, come through Old French, such as:
azure
from Old French azur from Persian lazhward (as though the -l- were the French article l') bedeguar
from Old French bédégar from Persian badgwar bezique
from Old French bésigue from Persian bazigar bezoar
from Old French bezoard from Persian padzahr bronze
from Old French bronze from Persian brinj calabash
from Old French calebasse from Persian xarbuza caravan
from Old French carouan from Persian karovan check
from Old French eschec from Persian schah checkmate
from Old French eschec mat from Persian schah mat hazard
from Old French hasard from Persian azar julep
from Old French julep from Persian gulab kaftan
from Old French cafetan from Persian kaftan orange
from Old French orenge from Persian narang lilac
from Old French lilac from Persian lilak spinach
from Old French espinache from Persian aspanach tabor
from Old French tabour from Persian tabura taffeta
from Old French taffetas from Persian taftan tass
from Old French tasse from Persian tasht tulip
from Old French tulipe from Persian dulband |
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medenaywe
AE Moderator 
Master of Meanings Joined: 06-Nov-2010 Location: / Online Status: Offline Posts: 17084 |
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Posted: 06-Mar-2011 at 16:19 |
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we are following your story!Just go on,with days and actors we have to blame for this?Was Caxton in French language as in English?Were those,virtual ones!
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Diviacus
Knight
Joined: 06-Mar-2011 Location: France Online Status: Offline Posts: 73 |
Quote Reply
Posted: 06-Mar-2011 at 16:12 |
As far as I know (I am French), there are no Alanic influences in the development of French language.
French is coming from Latin. There are still some Celtic words (about 200, which is few), and a certain number of Germanic words, coming from the Merovingians.
There were some Alans around Orleans (but not a kingdom !). They left some place names (as Allainville, Allainvilliers, south of Paris), but I don't know one word coming from Alanic language.
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Cryptic
Arch Duke
Retired AE Moderator Joined: 05-Jul-2006 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1962 |
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Posted: 04-Mar-2011 at 12:57 |
As a vague side note, French diverged from Latin several centuries before Spanish and Italian did. This may have influenced borrowings from other languages.
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Lady Deborah
Immortal Guard 
Joined: 25-Feb-2011 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2 |
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Posted: 04-Mar-2011 at 10:55 |
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Thank you for your replies. I didn't know about the Alanic (?) migration and will check into that.
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Cyrus Shahmiri
Administrator
King of Kings Joined: 07-Aug-2004 Location: Iran Online Status: Offline Posts: 6240 |
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Posted: 26-Feb-2011 at 15:14 |
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I think there was also an almost strong influence of Alanic language in the development of French language, I don't talk about the relation between Merovingians and the Sicambri: http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/sicambri/ but Alans migration to Gaul in the fifth century and formation of a kingdom in the central France, as you know the city of Orleans, southwest of Paris, was the capital of this kingdom and one of the greatest kings was Sangiban who fought against Attila.
One interesting thing for me in the French is "zh" sound, I had posted an Alanic (Ossetian) song in this thread: Speak Iranian (Zhurut Ironau), I don't know the link still works or not but it really sounds similar to French too.
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red clay
Administrator
Tomato Master Emeritus Joined: 14-Jan-2006 Online Status: Offline Posts: 10226 |
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Posted: 26-Feb-2011 at 11:20 |
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In far fewer words, he doesn't have a clue.
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"Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces".
Unknown. |
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opuslola
Tsar 
suspended Joined: 23-Sep-2009 Location: Long Beach, MS, Online Status: Offline Posts: 4620 |
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Posted: 25-Feb-2011 at 20:15 |
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I am sorry My Lady, to inform you that all it seems I do, is to compare French, German, Flemish, etc., to English words! And, according to some retorts I have received, I do a bad job of it!
For example, I look at old maps, etc., and see words describing the same place spelled in many differing forms! But, it seems that modern historians mostly disreard these spelling when writing their reports, or conclusions, etc.! Thus the problem with the French/Dutch/Flemish/ Friesian spellings of the famous city called mostly today as "Lille!" Just how many variations of this city can you present? Yes! This is a test of your abilities! Regards, Ron Huges |
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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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Lady Deborah
Immortal Guard
Joined: 25-Feb-2011 Online Status: Offline Posts: 2 |
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Posted: 25-Feb-2011 at 17:10 |
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Hello all. New to this forum--looks wonderful!
Any experts out there in the development of French language? Specifically how Latin and Celtic and Germanic (?) all blended together and became Old French by about 1200 CE? many thanks. |
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