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Did US attacked Afghanistan to capture Osama or...?

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  Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Did US attacked Afghanistan to capture Osama or...?
    Posted: 29-Apr-2006 at 11:42

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

No, he is on active duty currently, its not as if he went AWOL and joined Al-Qaedia, if he did they wouldn't have dropped the story so fast. I can see 3 possibilities,

a) the SAS have infiltrated Al-Qaedia
b) Al-Qaedia have infiltrated the SAS, or
c) the Osama tapes aren't made by who they say they are made by

The first 2 raise the question, Why is he blowing his cover?,
If a were true they should be able to capture or kill bin-laden tomorrow, they know his location.
If b were true, the media wouldn't have dropped the story and there would have been an almighty fuss.
So I think c is most likely, someone is manufacturing the recordings to get a desired effect

Very informative data and interesting point of view, thanks for them and I totaly agree with you. OBL is just a puppet being used by America for their own advange and once there is no need they will capture him the same as they did to Saddam.



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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2006 at 21:04
Originally posted by malizai_

There were i believe a lot of servicemen fropm various countries who adopted Islam after and during the afghan war and joined the ranks, some never went home.


No, he is on active duty currently, its not as if he went AWOL and joined Al-Qaedia, if he did they wouldn't have dropped the story so fast. I can see 3 possibilities,

a) the SAS have infiltrated Al-Qaedia
b) Al-Qaedia have infiltrated the SAS, or
c) the Osama tapes aren't made by who they say they are made by

The first 2 raise the question, Why is he blowing his cover?,
If a were true they should be able to capture or kill bin-laden tomorrow, they know his location.
If b were true, the media wouldn't have dropped the story and there would have been an almighty fuss.
So I think c is most likely, someone is manufacturing the recordings to get a desired effect
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  Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2006 at 12:07
Originally posted by malizai_

Dear gharanai

As for Mr nek Muhammed, i would say strategy is more important than courage. I think he lacked prudence, If the guy is going to give interviews to the BBC and others, he is not going to be difficult to find. Anyhow he failed to learn from A.S.Masood that interviews can be very dangerous in that part of the world. Secondly, the CIA and military act upon ground intelligence provided by the ISI and other affiliated agencies to a special task force who then relay that information to the US. The technology mainly serves an end use and is easily used by the operators. i.e the hardware is hightech but the operation is not.

To in-short the the reply I would like to say that he was shot with a laser gun and the laser shot followed his MOBILE frequencies, the man setting beside him was not even scratched while Nek Mohammad changed to ashes. No doesn't that sound too much of tech used in that case, I mean sending a laser beam which follow a certain frequency and which doesn't not harm anyone else but the targeted person ???

He has taken on-board what he has learned (correctly or incorrectly) that if u stay steadfast, u can defeat a superpower.

Well even if a person play a strategic PC game he will come up with that if you stand still and don't re-act toward your enemy who is hitting you hard enough, will result only and only in losing your men while the enemy is getting strong and stronger, and once he is the strongest then you will find yourself alone with no protection.

 

I dont think he is an agent and dont know if he is a true Muslim, whatever that means. I do think he is devoted to his cause because he has shown the whole world that he is. Even if u accept him as an agent then u cant question his commitment. I think he values his role more as an inspirational figurehead than a front-line man. Even in his previous role against the soviets he represented a high profile Arab figure, a model royalty who was abandoning all for his faith, which had a certain resonance amongst the mujahedin, and this is y his followers are so strong. For they have seen him endure as they have when he could have lived like a pseudo-royal. His primary role however was construction of the bases and organization of all the necessary logistics. He was never a proper field commander. If we continue to look at it rationally. the CIA have since his opposition to stationing of US forces in the gulf during the Gulf war, tried to isolate him by discrediting him in his environment and globally in terms of morality, in which i think they have succeeded. And this is an age old conduct of war. As for the belief that removing OBL from the scene will make the world a more peaceful place for Muslims then young man I think you are mistaken. There was already much foreign instigated violene in the middle-east before his arrival. Mind u he didnt start the afghan war, either.

I would like to say that did you forget how Ahmad Shah Masood acted toward the Russians during the freedom war and then all the sudden we came to know that now A.S Masood is allied with the Russians against a metual enemy, the Real Taliban (the ones without the foriegners integerated in to them), so my point here is that you never know that who is allied and is working for whom ?

Well you say that he isn't an Agent so could you tell me who was the only party who got all the benefits out of OBL's act of 9/11 ???

If you ask me I would straight forward say that FOR SURE IT WASN'T AFGHANS AND THE MUSLIMS but the Americans.

You have to see toward the other end as well to get the entire game, I mean think that who may get a benefit of an action done by you.

America was the only country who got the benefits of stationing his troops in Afghanistan (to achieve and succeed in his future plans of control over Iran and treat to China) and the other benefit was to the thirst of Unocal Corporation. 

A final thought, would the US have gone to war in IRAQ if OBL didnt exist?

Iraq, An all new and irrelevant story to OBL, I guess the USA wanted to occupy Iraq since OBL was not even born, and all the points once again comes circleing around the word OIL.

If you go to the market to by some tomatos and you find an increas in the price, for sure you will ask "Why has it got rised?" and the answer would be "Oil prices have got increased that's why.", the point is that most (or maybe the entire) economy of a nation is depended on oil in current time, and one guesses why is America's economy is always growing and growing fast. I guess now we get the answer to that why America's economy is always upward.

As for OBL.
"an inspiration to those who love freedom"
"the moral equivalent of our founding fathers"

1) OBL, an inspiration to freedom lovers ???
I don't really think so dear brother, but I really BELIEF that he is a person who " Sees his existance in others BLOOD !" (Baqaa-i khod ra dar khoon degarn mebenad!).

2) The moral equivalent of our founding fathers.
Well I will take those words as an insult toward my origin (being an Afghan), as non of our founding fathers, did what he is doing...



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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2006 at 07:55

There were i believe a lot of servicemen fropm various countries who adopted Islam after and during the afghan war and joined the ranks, some never went home.

The pro-independance Chechen president dhzokar dudayev was himself a colonel in the airforce having served in Afghanistan. Some black person(sorry cant remember name) that is now undergoing a terrorist trial in US was a Gulf War veteran. SAS men had some of the most cordial relations with the mujahedeen, since the main part of their job portfolio was to disseminate advanced training.

What was Khalid-bin-walid doing fighting alongside Mohammed, if we use that logic.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/1546995.stm

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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2006 at 07:14
Originally posted by Malizai

Secondly, the CIA and military act upon ground intelligence provided by the ISI and other affiliated agencies to a special task force who then relay that information to the US. The technology mainly serves an end use and is easily used by the operators. i.e the hardware is hightech but the operation is not. Saddam was not found, the US were told where they would find him.

Remember Matthew Stuart

If you don't know who he is I think I should explain.
In a 'bin-laden tape' release about 4 -5 months ago, they had a guy with a heavy western Sydney accent (western Sydney has a high muslim population) issuing threats against the west. The media here sized on this for an opportunity to have australias own 'home grown' terrorists, and they had linguist 'experts' saying "His voice profile is what you'd expect from someone with a non-english speaking background" and were hyping it up big time. Front page news. Only one problem, he was recognised, he was Matthew Stuart, a non-muslim, a Australian SAS officer who had been posted to afghanistan but who's currently location is unknown. This was reported briefly before the story dropped like a stone. No-one reported on this after it was known that the masked figure in the bin-laden tape was an SAS officer, not the government stations, not the private stations, not the newspapers, no-one.

Nobody asked the most important question:
What the hell is a member of the SAS doing on an al-qaedia tape issuing threats against the west?

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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 22:07
Originally posted by Gharanai

Originally posted by malizai_

Sorry gharanai, but i must disagree with u there on two counts. Firstly OBL is not an American agent, he is an excuse.

Well Dear malizai_ woror,
I would like to say that it depends on the point of views, if OBL isn't really an agent and is a true and devoted Muslim I don't think he would had risked the lives of these much Muslims all around the world, If he really is against America then why doesn't he act, I mean he could do lots and lots of things to the foreign invaders inside Afghanistan (if he will) but you see nothing, when ever a reall muslim who has lost his family and nation kills or rather takes revange from Americans, all the sudden the OBL followers say that it was an act of them, DAM if that is all what they can do (killing a single American Soldier) then I guess it's better for OBL to get arrested and let the entire Muslim world live a peaceful life.

Secondly, u give the pentagon too much credit. Those twats couldnt spot a plane if it was coming at their window, let alone spot OBL from sattelites.

Dear I don't think that you understand the game, well mmmmmmmm let me give you a reference if ever it is possible watch the movie (Fahrenheit 9/11), I am sure that you will gain lots of things from it though it too is a controversial one.

On the other hand, the best way to accuse an opposition is to get yourself attacked, it has been always the main act in politics and would be in future as well.

Now could you tell me how in the world they (Americans) found Sadam? and how they were able to spot and kill Neek Mohammad (who was killed in Waziristan areas with some controversial Identity and biography)?

 

Dear gharanai

for the sake of convenience, i will reply to the second comment first. The pentagon comment was sarcasm and maybe food for thought. I thought some fertile minds might make use of such speculation in the given context.

As for Mr nek Muhammed, i would say strategy is more important than courage. I think he lacked prudence, If the guy is going to give interviews to the BBC and others, he is not going to be difficult to find. Anyhow he failed to learn from A.S.Masood that interviews can be very dangerous in that part of the world. Secondly, the CIA and military act upon ground intelligence provided by the ISI and other affiliated agencies to a special task force who then relay that information to the US. The technology mainly serves an end use and is easily used by the operators. i.e the hardware is hightech but the operation is not. Saddam was not found, the US were told where they would find him.

Now for the first comment. I dont think he is a madman, I think he has graduated in geopolitics in the theater of war the hard way. He has found out that he was used by 'All' and doesnt want all their efforts to go to waste. He is trying to salvage the cause he has fought for and in pursuit of which he has lost many. The US is telling him to get lost and he is saying no. He has taken on-board what he has learned (correctly or incorrectly) that if u stay steadfast, u can defeat a superpower.

I dont think he is an agent and dont know if he is a true Muslim, whatever that means. I do think he is devoted to his cause because he has shown the whole world that he is. Even if u accept him as an agent then u cant question his commitment. I think he values his role more as an inspirational figurehead than a front-line man. Even in his previous role against the soviets he represented a high profile Arab figure, a model royalty who was abandoning all for his faith, which had a certain resonance amongst the mujahedin, and this is y his followers are so strong. For they have seen him endure as they have when he could have lived like a pseudo-royal. His primary role however was construction of the bases and organization of all the necessary logistics. He was never a proper field commander. If we continue to look at it rationally. the CIA have since his opposition to stationing of US forces in the gulf during the Gulf war, tried to isolate him by discrediting him in his environment and globally in terms of morality, in which i think they have succeeded. And this is an age old conduct of war. As for the belief that removing OBL from the scene will make the world a more peaceful place for Muslims then young man I think you are mistaken. There was already much foreign instigated violene in the middle-east before his arrival. Mind u he didnt start the afghan war, either. In any case do u think that if Iraq was a Christian country and the scene was played out again things would have been different. I dont think so. A final thought, would the US have gone to war in IRAQ if OBL didnt exist?

As for OBL.
"an inspiration to those who love freedom"
"the moral equivalent of our founding fathers"

 

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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 19:49
Those twats couldnt spot a plane if it was coming at their window,

What plane?
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  Quote Dark Age Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 13:31
I believe Saddam was captured on a tip by a local.  He wasn't found in a "deep bunker," per se, but a man-sized 6' or 8' deep "spider hole" in the dirt.  The cell he is in now is probably bigger.


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  Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Apr-2006 at 11:13

Originally posted by malizai_

Sorry gharanai, but i must disgree with u there on two counts. Firstly OBL is not an american agent, he is an excuse.

Well Dear malizai_ woror,
I would like to say that it depends on the point of views, if OBL isn't really an agent and is a true and devoted muslim I don't think he would had risked the lives of these much muslims all around the world, If he really is against America then why doesn't he act, I mean he could do lots and lots of things to the foriegn invaders inside Afghanistan (if he will) but you see nothing, when ever a reall muslim who has lost his family and nation kills or rather takes revange from Americans, all the sudden the OBL followers say that it was an act of them, DAM if that is all what they can do (killing a single American Soldier) then I guess it's better for OBL to get arrested and let the entire Muslim world live a peaceful life.

Secondly, u give the pentagon too much credit. Those twats couldnt spot a plane if it was coming at their window, let alone spot OBL from sattelites.

Dear I don't think that you understand the game, well mmmmmmmm let me give you a reference if ever it is possible watch the movie (Fahrenheit 9/11), I am sure that you will gain lots of things from it though it too is a controversial one.

On the other hand, the best way to accuse an opposition is to get yourself attacked, it has been always the main act in politics and would be in future as well.

Now could you tell me how in the world they (Americans) found Sadam? and how they were able to spot and kill Neek Mohammad (who was killed in Waziristan areas with some controversial Identity and biography)?

 



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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 21:34

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

I believe that the Taliban offered to hand over bin Laden just before the attack and the Americans refused.

I think they offered to hand him over of any evidence against him was presented. They never offered him unconditionally.

Originally posted by Leonidas

Afghanistan is very strategic. Stuff Osama, the USA can have bases (or a presence) east of Iran, west of china and south of the Central asia.

Leonidas, they could If the Afghans wanted and If it suited 'most' of them, but they cant by force. U can hire an afghan but u cant buy one. In any case If any grouping finds it self at loss because of the US, then the US will become a tribe amongst tribes.

Originally posted by Gharanai

CIA and FBI go and how easy is it to find OBL (in case he is not setting in Pentagon or Area 51 , because those are sensitive areas and is harder to trace them there .)

Sorry gharanai, but i must disgree with u there on two counts. Firstly OBL is not an american agent, he is an excuse. Secondly, u give the pentagon too much credit. Those twats couldnt spot a plane if it was coming at their window, let alone spot OBL from sattelites.

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  Quote malizai_ Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 21:09

Originally posted by Zagros

It was to secure pipeline passage from Central Asia.  Is the deep sea port in Pakistan's Baluchistan under contruction a co-incidence?

Gwadar port does not have as much to do with any central asian pipeline.

It has many purposes, the main ones being providng strategic depth to both pakistan and china in respect of the sea trade route and security.(naval blockades)

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  Quote Gharanai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2006 at 14:12

Originally posted by Maju

The USA invaded Afghaistan primarily to stabilish frces in Central Asia, which is essential in their geopolitical plans, affecting Russia, China, India and Iran.

It's part of the Great US Invasion of the Middle East, which started with the Kuwait War: a pretext to fill the Persian Gulf with US troops and bases.

(In may opinion, OBL works for Wasington and that's why they don't catch him).

I totally agree with Maju's both points.
First the geopolitical plans and second that OBL works for Washington. The reason could be several but my point is that if the USA could find Sadam in a deep bunker than what is the reason that they could not find OBL?

It was OBL who distroyed the religious movement of Taleban and made them terrorists in eye of the world.

I would like to mention a movie to all of you and that is "Enemy of State", watch the movie and then you will get that how deep could the CIA and FBI go and how easy is it to find OBL (in case he is not setting in Pentagon or Area 51 , because those are sensitive areas and is harder to trace them there .)



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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2006 at 20:18
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Originally posted by Maju

The USA invaded Afghaistan primarily to stabilish frces in Central Asia, which is essential in their geopolitical plans, affecting Russia, China, India and Iran.

It's part of the Great US Invasion of the Middle East, which started with the Kuwait War: a pretext to fill the Persian Gulf with US troops and bases.

(In may opinion, OBL works for Wasington and that's why they don't catch him).

Oh, please.  Another OBL conspiracy theory.

The geostrategic observation, however, I think is correct.



If all the pieces fit, then the theory is probably correct. What would Poirot say?

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2006 at 20:16
It does sound like a Bond movie. 

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  Quote Omar al Hashim Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2006 at 19:59
Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Originally posted by Maju

The USA invaded Afghaistan primarily to stabilish frces in Central Asia, which is essential in their geopolitical plans, affecting Russia, China, India and Iran.

It's part of the Great US Invasion of the Middle East, which started with the Kuwait War: a pretext to fill the Persian Gulf with US troops and bases.

(In may opinion, OBL works for Wasington and that's why they don't catch him).

Oh, please.  Another OBL conspiracy theory.

The geostrategic observation, however, I think is correct.


I agree with Maju, and on the subject of conspiricy theories the american story is that a "global terrorist organisation that controls seperatist movements across the world is organising attacks as we speak against the free people of america. It is funded by a rouge billionaire who was trained to fight against the soviet union".
Is it just me, or does that sound like a Bond movie?
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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2006 at 19:01
No one controls the sea lanes, they are in intrnational waters and if anyone tried to control them, they would probably lose more than they would gain by destroying international trade.
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2006 at 18:17
Originally posted by Gharanai

Originally posted by pikeshot1600

Originally posted by Omar al Hashim

I believe that the Taliban offered to hand over bin Laden just before the attack and the Americans refused.

Even if we had said yes, what would we have done with him?  He either becomes a martyr or a media star.  Much better that he just becomes a memory.  There are more important issues than him.

Yah, you are right he is a memory in American minds which could never be removed.

Beside what do you have to say about those people who lost their worthful lives, I am not only talking about the Afghans who lost their lives but also the American and International forces, they were didn't desearve a death in that way I mean in a way where the profit goes only and only to those ARM factory owners and the OIL well owners.

So I guess if the US had accepted that offer, most of lives could had been saved on both sides.

Well, as I said, there were more important issues.

 

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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2006 at 18:13

Originally posted by Maju

The USA invaded Afghaistan primarily to stabilish frces in Central Asia, which is essential in their geopolitical plans, affecting Russia, China, India and Iran.

It's part of the Great US Invasion of the Middle East, which started with the Kuwait War: a pretext to fill the Persian Gulf with US troops and bases.

(In may opinion, OBL works for Wasington and that's why they don't catch him).

Oh, please.  Another OBL conspiracy theory.

The geostrategic observation, however, I think is correct.

 

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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2006 at 18:11

Originally posted by Leonidas

Oh yes long term, the PRC havent a built a proper fleet yet. But ill bet they get the red carpet with the pakistani's when they do.

Well, young Spartan, Prudens rei militaris.  The Jesuits didn't teach us Greek.

Depending on what happens to Pakistan, it is hard to tell whose red carpet they might receive.  They still have to counter the fleets of the West though.

 



Edited by pikeshot1600
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2006 at 17:34
The USA invaded Afghaistan primarily to stabilish frces in Central Asia, which is essential in their geopolitical plans, affecting Russia, China, India and Iran.

It's part of the Great US Invasion of the Middle East, which started with the Kuwait War: a pretext to fill the Persian Gulf with US troops and bases.

(In may opinion, OBL works for Wasington and that's why they don't catch him).

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