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Tyr,Tiregan,Tirigan,Tervingi,Tyragetae,Targitaus
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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Tyr,Tiregan,Tirigan,Tervingi,Tyragetae,Targitaus
    Posted: 02-Sep-2010 at 04:53
"Aska" has probably the same origin of English "Sky", there are some other words which could also mean "sky", like Middle Persian Espash (Space) or Spihr (Sphere).
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Posts: 1098 		  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Sep-2010 at 19:46
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

 
The Persian word for sky is Asman, but as I mentioned in this thread: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28631 in the Avestan language, the word Thwasha is also used for "sky", the difference between them is, as you read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asman Asman is the "highest heaven," and is distinguished from the firmament (thwasha), which lies nearer the earth.
 
 
In Pashto, there is a word known as "aska" which roughly translates to "Really high" 
 
I am not sure if this word is related also.


Edited by Afghanan - 01-Sep-2010 at 19:47
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2010 at 15:09
Finnish "Taivas"could be related to both Germanic Tiwaz and Persian Teva/Tava that I mentioned in the first post of this page, of course the Persian word doesn't mean "sky", but like Sanskrit Deva, it means "a shining one", from the Persian verb Tevan "to shine", for example with the suffix "-esh" that I talked about in my last posts, there is the action noun "Tavesh/Tabesh": http://www.wikiled.com/persian-english-t_00e2besh-Default.aspx that as you see it means "brilliance, light, shining".
 
The Persian word for sky is Asman, but as I mentioned in this thread: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28631 in the Avestan language, the word Thwasha is also used for "sky", the difference between them is, as you read here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asman Asman is the "highest heaven," and is distinguished from the firmament (thwasha), which lies nearer the earth.
 
Of course it is also said, as you read here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04405c.htm "That Thwasha was once the head of the Iranian pantheon is perhaps indicated by so early a witness as Herodotus (I, cxxxi), and much later by Damascius."


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 31-Aug-2010 at 16:26
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Posts: 1 		  Quote tuisku Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Aug-2010 at 12:52
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Iranians never considered Daeva as their god but he was the god their enemies, so we see however Persian kings were tolerant of all religions but they never tolerate those who worshiped Daevas, as Xerxes says: "And among these countries there was a place where previously Daevas were worshipped. Afterwards, by the favor of Ahuramazda, I destroyed that sanctuary of the Daevas, and I made proclamation, The Daevas shall not be worshipped!", XERXES, PERSEPOLIS H. (XPh) ).


I join in the discussion a bit late... It is interesting to note that in literary Finnish the word for "sky" is "taivas" and in some dialects it is still "taevas". This makes me wonder if
 
a) It is a loanword from Iranian enemies or
b) the Iranian enemies and Finno-Ugrian ancestors may have worshipped the same deity or
c) the Iranian enemies were Finno-Ugrians?
 
The languages are still spoken fragmentarily in large parts of the central and northern Russia. Furthermore, the fact that those languages are still spoken regardless of the pressure by the Slavic languages makes me hypothesize about connection between Sarmatians or Scythians and Finnic or Ugrian peoples, respectively. Otherwise there is no space for the ancient FU peoples in the world history - where would have they been when Sarmatians and Scythians ruled in the neighborhood? 
 
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Aug-2009 at 05:52
Don't we say "Be'tekanesh"  as the action word?
The suffix -esh here indicates the third person (or thing), "Kushesh" (Where is it?) and "Kushesh" (Effort) are different words! Wink
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Posts: 1098 		  Quote Afghanan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Aug-2009 at 22:52
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Tekan is actually an action noun which is derived from the verb tekandan (to propel, to push), of course it can be considered as an exception because in Persian action noun is usually formed from the present stem of the verb by adding the suffix -esh but tekan is just the present stem of the verb tekandan, so the proper action noun should be tekanesh that we never use in Persian!
 
Don't we say "Be'tekanesh"  as the action word?  
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Posts: 112 		  Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2009 at 19:19
Thanks for clearing that up Thumbs Up

Well, in that case, the comparison is between dik- and tekan-, -ein and -dan / -esh being suffixes.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2009 at 17:36
Tekan is actually an action noun which is derived from the verb tekandan (to propel, to push), of course it can be considered as an exception because in Persian action noun is usually formed from the present stem of the verb by adding the suffix -esh but tekan is just the present stem of the verb tekandan, so the proper action noun should be tekanesh that we never use in Persian!

Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 22-Apr-2009 at 17:37
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Posts: 112 		  Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2009 at 16:48
Could you please analyse the word tekan, indicating which is the root, which is the suffix and listing 2-3 other verbs in the same mood (infinitive, I presume), of the same flexionary class?

I could not locate anything remotely similar either in Old Persian or in Avestan and I am therefore very interested in how Farsi works from a grammatical perspective.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2009 at 16:12
good mention, don't you think that Greek dikein "throw" and Persian tekan "propel" -> http://www.wikiled.com/persian-english-tek_00e2n-Default.aspx have the same origin?
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2009 at 14:44
Excuse me, how would dish, from Greek diskos ''disk'' (via Latin), from dikein ''to throw'' be related to tasse, from Persian tasht (via Old French and Arabic)??
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2009 at 14:04
There are numeous words in Persian that we see just Latin/Greek "d" sound has been changed to "t", you can even compare English loanwords, for example Tass, from Persian Tash "dish, bowl" and Latin origin word Dish.
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Posts: 112 		  Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2009 at 13:17
I'm merely quoting you, Cyrus:

"ta" has some different meanings in Persian, I can say for sure that one of it meanings is "two"{...} its first meaning is a "fold"


You say the first meaning of "ta" is "fold", but it also have the meaning of "two". 
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Apr-2009 at 19:00
That is "Tavistan" which comes from "ta/tav", not vice versa, you should know about the origin of the words, you probably say the Modern Persian verb Tarkidan (to split) or Tarke (Twig) -> http://www.wikiled.com/persian-english-tarke-Default.aspx don't relate to "two" but they have also the same origin.
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Posts: 112 		  Quote khshayathiya Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Apr-2009 at 22:19
Well, Cyrus, you've just managed to answer your own point: Modern Persian "ta" with the meaning "two" is not ethymologically related to English two, German Zwei, Latin duo of Greek δυο. It is merely a regressive derivate from a verb meaning "to fold", hence "to double up".

Therefore the phonetic law d > t you conjure out of thin air is not proven as applying to Iranian languages.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2009 at 13:39
"ta" has some different meanings in Persian, I can say for sure that one of it meanings is "two", as you read here: http://www.wikiled.com/persian-english-t_00e2-Default.aspx its first meaning is a "fold", the reason is that the middle Persian verb Tavistan means "to twist, to double up, to divide in two", the interesting thing is that for this reason modern Persian "tabidan" and "taftan" not only mean "to shine" but also "to twist".
 
Modern Persian Tab: http://www.wikiled.com/persian-english-t_00e2b-Default.aspx (being twisted, twist)
 
 
taffeta Look up taffeta at Dictionary.com
1373, from O.Fr. taffetas (1317), from It. taffeta, ult. from Pers. taftah "silk or linen cloth," noun use of taftah, pp. of taftan "to shine," also "to twist, spin." Applied to different fabrics at different times (and cf. tapestry).

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=tapestry

tapestry Look up tapestry at Dictionary.com
1434, variant of tapissery (1426), from M.Fr. tapisserie "tapestry" (14c.), from tapisser "to cover with heavy fabric," from tapis "heavy fabric," from O.Fr. tapiz (12c.), from V.L. *tappetium, from Byzantine Gk. tapetion, from classical Gk., dim. of tapes (gen. tapetos) "tapestry, heavy fabric," probably from an Iranian source (cf. Pers. taftan, tabidan "to turn, twist"). The figurative use is first recorded 1581.
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Posts: 1061 		  Quote Slayertplsko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2009 at 11:26
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

You should believe that in numerous cases, proto-IE "d" has been changed to "t" in the Iranian languages too, this is the reason that Teva is very holy word but Daeva which could be just a loanword from the rival Indian religion, is one of the most sinister words in the Iranian languages.

I know that you aren't much of a friend with sources, but could you give me any claiming that Teva is related to Deus, that there was a prevocalic d -> t shift in Iranian languages and that Persian تا is an inherited word and cognate to English 'to'?? Because I found just that it's a loanword from Sanskrit यथा (yathā). This is on wiktionary though, and I don't consider it a trustworthy source.



Edited by Slayertplsko - 19-Apr-2009 at 11:29
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2009 at 04:37
example



Much depends on the meaning of the word daiva, which clearly means 'demon' and looks similar to the word daeva in the Avesta, the holy book of Zoroastrianism . If daiva and daeva are identical, we can assume that the rebels lived in Iran, where the Zoroastrian religion was influential.

However, if these words are not the same, daiva may refer to the gods of Babylonia or Egypt.




on..


4. King Xerxes says: when I became king, there was among these countries one that was in rebellion. Ahuramazda bore me aid. By the grace of Ahuramazda I smote that country and put it down in its place. And among these countries there was a place where previously demons (daiva) were worshipped. Afterwards, by the grace of Ahuramazda I destroyed that sanctuary of demons, and I proclaimed: 'The demons shall not be worshipped!' Where previously the demons were worshipped, there I worshipped Ahuramazda at the proper time and in the proper manner. And there was other business that had been done ill. That I made good. That which I did, all I did by the grace of Ahuramazda. Ahuramazda bore me aid until I completed the work


http://www.livius.org/aa-ac/achaemenians/XPh.html
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Posts: 4613 		  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Apr-2009 at 04:25
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

I wonder why some non-Iranian-speaking people think to know Iranian languages better than Iranians themselves, you can read here about Sasnkrit Deva: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=deva&searchmode=none
 
deva Look up deva at Dictionary.com
"god, good spirit" in Hindu religion, from Skt. deva "a god," originally "a shining one," from *div- "to shine," thus cognate with Gk. dios "divine" and Zeus, and L. deus "god" (O.Latin deivos);

my bolding

Zeus Look up Zeus at Dictionary.com
supreme god of the ancient Greeks, 1706, from Gk., from PIE *dewos- "god" (cf. L. deus "god," O. Pers. daiva- "demon, evil god," O.C.S. deivai, Skt. deva-), from base *dyeu- "to gleam, to shine;" also the root of words for "sky" and "day" (see diurnal). The god-sense is originally "shining," but "whether as originally sun-god or as lightener" is not now clear.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Apr-2009 at 17:09
The problem is that you think there is just a single unchangeable law of sound change about Iranian languages, but it is certainly wrong, you will be right, if you say the Persian word for "two" is "do", not "to", but what is the Persian word for "to", again "do"?
 
 
to Look up to at Dictionary.com
O.E. to "in the direction of, for the purpose of, furthermore," from W.Gmc. *to (cf. O.S., O.Fris. to, Du. too, O.H.G. zuo, Ger. zu "to"), from PIE pronomial base *do- "to, toward, upward" (cf. L. donec "as long as," O.C.S. do "as far as, to," Gk. suffix -de "to, toward," O.Ir. do, Lith. da-).

http://www.wikiled.com/persian-english-t_00e2-Default.aspx

You should believe that in numerous cases, proto-IE "d" has been changed to "t" in the Iranian languages too, this is the reason that Teva is very holy word but Daeva which could be just a loanword from the rival Indian religion, is one of the most sinister words in the Iranian languages.
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