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Armenians, descendants of Sakson
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Sharrukin View Drop Down
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Posts: 1314 		  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Armenians, descendants of Sakson
    Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 03:11
Sharrukin, you know yourself that the location of Scyhtia which has been mentioned in 4.27 is certainly the northern part of Germany, which has been mentioned as Saxones by Ptolemy.
 
I've already dealt with those passages, and they don't say anything of the sort.  Next!!!
 
Pliny says himself in 4.25: The name "Scythian" has extended, in every direction, even to the Sarmat and the Germans;.....
 
but well of course!!!  The Scythians used to live geographically between the Germans and the Sarmatae.  In the period of Pliny, it was the Sarmatae who have taken over the original Scythian area. 
 
...... but this ancient appellation is now only given to those who dwell beyond those nations, and live unknown to nearly all the rest of the world.
 
And so the late classical authors applied to term to those peoples which lived to the east of the Sarmatae (i.e. "beyond" the Germans and Sarmatae, from the point of view of a Roman).  The Central Asian tribes were the new "Scythians".  Please read Ptolemy for the location of the various central Asian "Scythias".

I have said it several times that Strabo and then Pliny have also said that Scythians called their land "Saxan/Saxen/Saxon".

And I have said it several times that Strabo and Pliny did not mention such.  They only mention "Sacasene" and "Sacasanae", that's it in reference to a geographical region in Greater Armenia.
 
Which time?! 2nd century AD?

Sharrukin also mentioned a Scythian presence in the north of Germany as early as  5th century BC, as he said "That presence was characterized by the destruction of fortresses and the presence of Scythian arrows."

I've also mentioned that the archaeological data does not indicate migration but cultural interaction.  The Scythians did not make a cultural impact on the cultures of northern Europe, only a military one. 
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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 11:25

Well, i don't know Iranian at all. If you say Chalo is hollow and us is mountain I believe you. But what has it to do with the river Chalusos. Can you show me the mountain these River comes from. It is unknown what river the Chalususis was, it's probably Warnow, Trave or Recknitz, not Oder at all.

All streams  in the world but not the Oder River just becuase it flows from the Oder Mountains of the Czech Republic, it is not really a good reason!

counter-question: do YOU know you're actually iranian?  if you don't believe in Germanicness of Saxons, then you have to proove you're Iranian

If you show me some historical, archaeological, linguistic and geneological evidences that people of northern Iran were not Iranian then I will certainly believe that I am not an Iranian.

What does it have to do with the saxones. India, China, Bulghar are not very close to the Saxons. So we have to search Saqsin somewhere in the near and nowhere else. Only a similar name is no device.

You need to read my previous posts where I proved that Strabo, Pliny and some other ancient historians have mentioned that Scythians who live in different regions from the Central Asia to the northern Germany call themselves Saksin/Sakson.

i haven't seen any solid evidence so far, only guesses about vague similarities of some random names that proove nothing.

I will finally restore ancient Saxons to life that they themselves say they are the same Scythians who lived in the north of Germany!!

However if you believed the sources then you would see that they have mentioned it, for example as you read here: http://www.northvegr.org/lore/bede/001.php one of the Greatest Saxons Bede, the father of English History, says:

The nation of the Picts, from Scythia (northern Germany), as is reported, putting to sea, in a few long ships, were driven by the winds beyond the shores of Britain, and arrived on the northern coast of Ireland, where, finding the nation of the Scots, they begged to be allowed to settle among them, but could not succeed in obtaining their request. Ireland is the greatest island next to Britain, and lies to the west of it.
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2007 at 20:23
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

However if you believed the sources then you would see that they have mentioned it, for example as you read here: http://www.northvegr.org/lore/bede/001.php one of the Greatest Saxons Bede, the father of English History, says:

The nation of the Picts, from Scythia (northern Germany), as is reported, putting to sea, in a few long ships, were driven by the winds beyond the shores of Britain, and arrived on the northern coast of Ireland, where, finding the nation of the Scots, they begged to be allowed to settle among them, but could not succeed in obtaining their request. Ireland is the greatest island next to Britain, and lies to the west of it.



what have Picts got to do with Saxons? Confused
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Posts: 925 		  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2007 at 09:38
It is not the Oder, because this river is too eastern and not because it is coming from the mountains. The three rivers that are possibly the Chalusos didn't come from mountains. So your translation should be wrong.
 
Temujin, what have the Picts to do with the Skythians. This is very easy. The Greeks divided the barbarian world into Celts in the West and Skythians in the East. The picts were no original celtic nation. So they must be a Skythian nation. The Saxon invaded from Germany, so the Picts need to come from there  as well. History can be so easy, if you are not searching for factsWink.
 
 
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Posts: 925 		  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2007 at 09:47
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

First of all Ptolemaios didn't know the saxones. The sources mostly have the term Axones, which is wrongly for Aviones.

What are your sources? I have checked almost all sources, even the Arabic translation of his book by al-Khwarizmi (Algorithm) in the eight century, all of them mention "Saxones".

Herefor read Kahrstedt, 1935 and Springer, 2004. It was a mistake that often appears. The old authors, like Plinius, Ptolemaios, Cesar e.g. are not tradited original. They were copied on and on, mostly by monks. But these monks didn't often know something about geography or history. They worked in dark chambers with candles and often they didn't understood the language of the book that they were copying.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2007 at 19:48
Originally posted by Temujin


what have Picts got to do with Saxons? Confused
 
Both of them were Scythain people, as John Milton, one of the greatest scholars, says:
 
 
The Saxons were a barbarous and heathen nation, famous for nothing else but robberies and cruelties done to all their neighbours, both by sea and land; in particular to this island, witness that military force, which the Roman emperors maintained here purposely against them, under a special commander, whose title, as is found on good record, was Count of the Saxon shore in Britain, and the many mischiefs done by their landing here, both alone and with the Picts, as above hath been related, witness as much. They were a people thought by good writers to be descended of the Sac, a kind of Scythians in the north of Asia, thence called Sacasons, or sons of Sac, who, with a flood of other northern nations came into Europe, toward the declining of the Roman empire; and using piracy from Denmark all along these seas, possessed at length by intrusion all that coast of Germany, and the Netherlands, which took thence the name of Old Saxony, lying between the Rhine and Elve, and from thence north as far as Eidora, the river bounding Holsatia, though not so firmly or so largely, but that their multitude wandered yet uncertain of habitation.
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Posts: 1314 		  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2007 at 07:45
Both of them were Scythain people, as John Milton, one of the greatest scholars, says:
 
 
We've already dealt with John Milton.  He is an outdated source.  All he did was deal with the same kind of misconceived material you are falling for.   He lived at a time when any similarity of historical name was used in order to facilitate a notion of illustrious past.  This was the same kind of fiction which made the Cimmerians the ancestors of the Welsh (Cymry).  Remember the fictional character Conan the Barbarian?  He was a Cimmerian.  His name is Welsh. 
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2007 at 19:58

We've already dealt with John Milton.  He is an outdated source.

If you consider a 350 years old source as outdated then what about Herodetus, Strabo, Pliny ...? Do you expect that we just talk about an artilce which has been written today?

All he did was deal with the same kind of misconceived material you are falling for.

Would you please tell me what kind of evidence you want that I have not provided?

He lived at a time when any similarity of historical name was used in order to facilitate a notion of illustrious past.

+ Language & Culture, why not?

This was the same kind of fiction which made the Cimmerians the ancestors of the Welsh (Cymry).  Remember the fictional character Conan the Barbarian?  He was a Cimmerian.  His name is Welsh.

Did you know that Welsh from Proto-Germanic *walha- means "non-Germanic foreigner" in the Germanic languages and "Cymry" means "Compatriot" in the Iranian languages?



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 16-Dec-2007 at 19:58
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Dec-2007 at 20:33

More about Saqsin (south-western Russia):

As you read here, It is known that in thethirteenth century a Christian people called the Saxi and speaking a language very similar to Old English inhabited near the Sea of Azov, and that troops of the Saxi served in the Georgian Army in the twelfth century.

http://digilib.bu.edu/dspace/bitstream/2144/585/3/mongolmission008646mbp.txt

The Mongol Mission

NARRATIVES AND LETTERS OF THE FRANCISCAN MISSIONARIES IN MONGOLIA AND CHINA IN THE THIRTEENTH AND FOURTEENTH CENTURIES

Now follow the names of those countries which have manfully resisted the Tartars and are at the present time not subject to them: Great India, part of the Alans, part of the Kitayans and the Saxi [According to The Secret History of the Mongols (section 262) they were the Chechen of the Caucasus (Sasoun)] . When we were there we were told that the Tartars besieged a certain city of these Saxi and tried to subdue it. ...
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2007 at 18:51
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

+ Language & Culture, why not?



Saxon and Scyhtian culture is completely unrelated.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2007 at 18:55
Originally posted by Temujin

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

+ Language & Culture, why not?



Saxon and Scyhtian culture is completely unrelated.

What are the differences between them?
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Posts: 5221 		  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2007 at 19:22
Scythians are horse riders that live of herds of cattle, who have tatoos, who believe in different gods, have different art, live in carts which they move around while saxons live in long wooden houses in one place. Scythians have a quite developed culture whereas Saxons were even less sophisticated than Celts.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Dec-2007 at 20:04

Slav: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=slav&searchmode=none

Sclave, from M.L. Sclavus (c.800), from Byzantine Gk. Sklabos (c.580), from O.Slav. Sloveninu "a Slav," probably related to slovo "word, speech," which suggests the name originally meant member of a speech community.

In Persian we have Sakalab and Arabic Saqlab, Saka+Lab (Persian Lab, Latin Labia, Spanish Labio, English Lip, Norwegian leppe, ...  mean "lip, word, speech" in Indo-European languages.)
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Posts: 1314 		  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2007 at 04:46
We've already dealt with John Milton.  He is an outdated source.

If you consider a 350 years old source as outdated then what about Herodetus, Strabo, Pliny ...? Do you expect that we just talk about an artilce which has been written today?
 
Much can be said about, especially Herodotus, but the main difference is that these ancient authors lived in the time of what they wrote about.  The same cannot be said of John Milton.  He could only make reference to those authors.
 
All he did was deal with the same kind of misconceived material you are falling for.

Would you please tell me what kind of evidence you want that I have not provided?
 
1.  An ancient source explicitly stating that the Saxons (by name) were the descendants of the Scythians.
 
2.  A thorough study of the archaeology of the culture of the Saxons which show an undeniable cultural descent from the Scythians.  An artefact here or there does not count. 
 
3.  A thorough study of the language of the ancient Saxons showing that it was Iranic.  Anything less than that is unacceptable.  Word comparisons are meaningless without context and other mitigating aspects and attributes of language. 

He lived at a time when any similarity of historical name was used in order to facilitate a notion of illustrious past.

+ Language & Culture, why not?

 
He did not have the adequate learning to make such judgements.  "Language and Culture" (i.e. Linguistics, Anthropology, and Archaeology) are modern disciplines.  All he had were ancient and medievel authors, and from them made inferences regarding "language and culture". 
 
This was the same kind of fiction which made the Cimmerians the ancestors of the Welsh (Cymry).  Remember the fictional character Conan the Barbarian?  He was a Cimmerian.  His name is Welsh.

Did you know that Welsh from Proto-Germanic *walha- means "non-Germanic foreigner" in the Germanic languages....
 
but still ultimately of Celtic origin. 
 
.....and "Cymry" means "Compatriot" in the Iranian languages?
 
but can you prove that it is by origin, Iranic?  Making word comparisons is still inadequate to show direct relationships.  It still leaves too much open for the idea of a common ancestry going back to the PIE period.
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Posts: 925 		  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2007 at 09:05

I think this is the point. Please explain, why and how the riding people of the steppe became pirates. Please explain why all the archaolgical material isn't skythic at all.

The word 'walh-' comes from the celtic tribe of the Volcae which were sitting south of the Germanic tribes before they left in the 4th and 3rd century BC to South Gaul and the Balkans.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2007 at 18:54

Temujin mentioned an important point, I had really forgotten to talk about the religion, there are numerous similarities between Scythian and Saxon beliefs, what is the difference between Saxon Irmin and Zoroastrian Airyaman? Nothing!

First lets talk about Seaxneat/Saxnot: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxneat

Seaxneat

Seaxneat or Saxnot is the mythical founder of the Saxons. Seaxneat seems to have been a god unique to the Saxons, although he has been compared to Tyr. His name is said to mean either "knife bull" or "bull of the Saxons", Old Saxon nōt English neat being an old word for "ox, cattle, bovine".

Etymology

It is difficult to interpret his name exactly as the Saxon people took their own name from their word for knife, Sax or Seax. Seaxneat is recorded amongst the continental Saxon as Saxnot, where he is mentioned in Old Saxon as a god who had to be denounced during their conversion to Christianity in the Old Saxon Baptismal Vow.

Now what was the anicent Iranian story?

http://www.bertholdtech.com/ww/en/pub/bioanalytik/produkte/lb940/legend.cfm

Ancient legend ...

... says that on December 25th, Mithras was conceived in the shade of a sacred tree beside a sacred stream, holding a knife and a torch. A raven from the sun god Sol then gave him a message that told him to slay the mysterious white bull.
Mithras obeyed and tracked down the bull, accompanied by two minor deities, Cautes and Cautophes. When he finally met up with the mystic bull, he did slay it, using the knife he was born with. The white bull then became the moon and Mithras vicorious cape became the sky. Supposedly, this evolved into the alteration of night and day.
Animals and plants were formed, and seasons developed and began to change. Time was developed and the scene for mankind was now set. The legend ends with Mithras climbing into Sols golden chariot and flashing across the sky in glory.
 
I should mention that in the Persian language Saku/Chaku means "Knife" and Nar means Bull (Male Animal).


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 18-Dec-2007 at 19:33
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Posts: 925 		  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2007 at 19:07

Unfortunately there is no such saxon god Irmin, there is only irminsul, and irmin means here just big or large. It's the same with irmingot, this means great god and not god irmin.

Saxnot/Saxneat is usually not translated as knife bull or something else but as the mate of the Saxons. He is also not the mysthical founder of the saxons. He is mentioned in some genealogies of saxones in Britannia. He is mentioned together with Uuoden and Thunaer. So he can be identified with Tiu or probably with Ing/Fro.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Dec-2007 at 18:40

Prose Edda
the fullest and most detailed source for modern knowledge of Germanic mythology. http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9031961/Edda

http://www.northvegr.org/lore/prose2/034.php

Svithjod the Great, or the Cold, is the ancient Sarmatia and Scythia Magna, and formed the great part of the present European Russia. In the mythological sagas it is also called Godheim; that is, the home of Odin and the other gods. Svithjod the Less is Sweden proper, and is called Mannheim; that is, the home of the kings, the descendants of the gods.

Northward of the Black Sea lies Svithjod the Great
 
Scythia -> Norse Svithjod -> Sweden
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Posts: 925 		  Quote beorna Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2007 at 10:31
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Prose Edda
the fullest and most detailed source for modern knowledge of Germanic mythology. http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9031961/Edda

http://www.northvegr.org/lore/prose2/034.php

Svithjod the Great, or the Cold, is the ancient Sarmatia and Scythia Magna, and formed the great part of the present European Russia. In the mythological sagas it is also called Godheim; that is, the home of Odin and the other gods. Svithjod the Less is Sweden proper, and is called Mannheim; that is, the home of the kings, the descendants of the gods.

Northward of the Black Sea lies Svithjod the Great
 
Scythia -> Norse Svithjod -> Sweden
If you quote this, than surely you'll believe to dwarfs and blue men in this regions. Would you please show me the descendant of these blue men. This are myth, fantasy and nothing more. Would you please stop mixing it!
 
You have also to differ between the norse sagas and the south germanic believings. The sagas are written mostly after 1000 and later. The last south germanic nations became christians about 800 (official), mostly the nations were christians since about 500. The pagan believe changed during these centuries. So the saxon believe in 450 e.g. can not be set equal with those of norse men in 1000.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2007 at 10:56

Svithjod in Norse, Skuthes in Greek, Skayord in Armenian, Sakzad in Persian, Saakadze in Georgian and Saksen in Scythian mean "Sakson/Son of the Scythian/Descendant of the Scythian"

or better to say "Son of the Knife" (Middle Persian Saku, Old Norse Svera, Saxon Seax) Mithra!
 
Do you know why?
 
Smile Tomorrow is the birthday of Mithra! Smile
 
 
Millions of Iranians all over the world Friday night will celebrate `Yalda', the longest night of the year and the first night of winter as a token of victory of the angel of goodness over the devil of badness.
`Yalda' is a Syriac word meaning birth and according to Mithraism, a faith that initially originated from Persia and later spread out throughout the ancient civilized world, the first day of winter which falls on December 21 this year, was celebrated as the birthday of Mithra, the angel of light.
 
On this winter night, the oldest member of the family says prayers, thanks God for the previous year's crops, and prays for the prosperity of next year's harvest. Then with a sharp knife, he cuts the thick yogurt, the melon, and the watermelon and gives everyone a share. The cutting symbolizes the removal of sickness and pain from the family.
 


Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 20-Dec-2007 at 11:47
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