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Northeast European Tribe, Scythian
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King John View Drop Down
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Posts: 1366 		  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Northeast European Tribe, Scythian
    Posted: 29-Dec-2007 at 18:34
Your entomological theory is a little far fetched. Aquila, Aigle, and Eagle have no relation to the word for eagle in the Avestan language. Eagle comes to English from the french word Aigle (the Old English word for eagle was "earn"). The French word subsequently comes from Latin. Granted all these languages came from Proto Indo-European. However they come from different branches. Latin, French, English, Old Norse are from the part of the Indo-European Language tree called the Centum Languages. Whereas, Avestan (from Indo-Iranian), Iranian, and Slavic hail from the second part of the IE Language tree called the Satem Languages. Given this division and the development of the languages (Centum and Satem) in virtual isolation there is very little overlap.1

What are the similarities between Iranian Mythology and Nordic Mythology? Keep in mind that similarities don't prove common ancestry.

1.Centum
Satem

Here is a break down of individual branches of the Indo-European Language family. Avestan would be under the Indo-Iranian, the others under Italic and Germanic.

Edited by King John - 30-Dec-2007 at 00:58
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Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Because there is a huge similarity between Iranian and Nordic mythologies.

The similarities between Nordic and Greek mythologies are even greater.

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

[quote]Interesting etymological theory.. so what actual evidence is there to suggest that the Rus are the Urupax?

I will find something, unfortunately there are a few sources for the origin of "Rus".


There are plenty of sources; admitedly none supporting your theories though.
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Posts: 1366 		  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Dec-2007 at 21:03
There are similarities between most of the mythologies of the world. The similarities are not as important as the differences.
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Posts: 925 		  Quote Brian J Checco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2007 at 00:45
Is this thread beginning to remind anyone of the far-fetched linguistic theories from the Armenian; Descendent of Saksun thread? That one was sure interesting.


Edited by Brian J Checco - 30-Dec-2007 at 00:52
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Posts: 1366 		  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2007 at 00:55
Brian, just as far fetched.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2007 at 14:07

There are several places in the south west of Russia (northeast of the Black Sea) with the names similar to Urup Saka (Scythian Urupians).

Urupskaya: http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/russia/map/m4241853/urupskaya.html
Urupsaja Pervaya: http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/russia/map/m4241852/urupsaja_pervaya.html
Urupskiy: http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/russia/map/p157134/urupskiy.html
Urupskiy: http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/russia/map/m4241856/urupskiy.html
Urupskiy: http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/russia/map/m4241855/urupskiy.html
Urupskiy Aul: http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/russia/map/m4241857/urupskiy_aul.html
Urupskiy Khrebet: http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/russia/map/p9193099/urupskiy_khrebet.html
Urupskiy Rayon: http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/russia/map/m4241858/urupskiy_rayon.html

I found this interesting article from www.FindArticles.com about one of them:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3996/is_200207/ai_n9119082 (by Ivan Kurilla) -> Uryupinsk is the "capital city of Russia's provinces." Its name is so widely used in anecdotes about Russian "country bumpkins" that many Russians believe that it is the creation of some storyteller. Uryupinsk, however, really exists. About forty thousand inhabitants enjoy a healthy and picturesque environment on the river Khoper, three hundred kilometers (about two hundred miles) from Volgograd. -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uryupinsk



Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 30-Dec-2007 at 14:12
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Posts: 2967 		  Quote Ponce de Leon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2007 at 16:24
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

We sacrifice unto the awful kingly Glory, made by Mazda .... That clave unto Takhma Urupa, the well-armed, while he ruled over the seven Karshvares of the earth., AVESTA: YASHTS (Hymns of praise) [http://www.avesta.org/ka/yt19sbe.htm]


As Herodotus says Scythians themselves believe their three main tribes descended from three kings that one of them was Arpoxais (Herodotus. History, Book IV, verse 5&6.) the Avestan name of this king is Urupaxaya which means 'King of Urupeans".


"Uru", Old Norse "Urn", means "Eagle/Erne" and "Pa" means "foot", so "Urupa" is the name of a legendary creature which is said to be a "Quadruped Eagle", this name has entered into Greek myths in two ways: "Grupa" (Griffin) and "Harpia" (Harpy), as Herodotus again says this legendary creature lived in Scythia to guard its gold. (Herodotus. History, Book IV, verse 13)


Read more about Griffins: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffin




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<T>
<TR>
<TD>Arms of West Pomeranian
Voivodeship, Poland
</TD>
<TD>Arms of Ueckermnde,
Germany
</TD>
<TD>Arms of West Pomeranian
Voivodeship, Poland
</TD>
<TD>Arms of Troms,
Norway
</TD></TR></T></T></TABLE>

<SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 10px"></SPAN>


My personal opinion on the matter is is that they just copied off each other. So the fact of the matter is that although some may be Scythian decendants, the fact of the matter is that this is all coincidence. Not too many conspiracy theorists like that word but thats what I feel. Because not too many people give the word "coincidence" a chance!
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2007 at 17:17
That is Urupan (Urupa+an "Country of the Eagle/Griffin") Caucasian Albania, Old Persian Arupan, Armenian Aluank, Parthian Ardhan and Middle Persian Arran (Alania).
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Posts: 1366 		  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2007 at 18:52
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

That is Urupan (Urupa+an "Country of the Eagle/Griffin") Caucasian Albania, Old Persian Arupan, Armenian Aluank, Parthian Ardhan and Middle Persian Arran (Alania).


What is this supposed to show? I think you need to elaborate on this idea if you want people to respond. Personally I think you are playing fast and loose with etymologies here.
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Posts: 1366 		  Quote King John Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Dec-2007 at 19:18
The use of coat of arms as an illustration of the Scythian origins of Northern and Eastern Europe is a rather weak argument. These coat of arms are not ancient but rather fairly recent. They show nothing of the mythology of these nations. On the contrary, with the rise of Latin as a courtly language Latin and often Greek Mythology penetrated once "barbarian" cultures. The coat of arms uses Heraldry that has been imported from all over Medieval Europe. The fact that coats of arms from Poland, Sweden, and Germany all have Griffins in them gives more incite into the founder of these families than the mythology of Poland, Germany, and Sweden. Often Heraldic animals in coats of arms held character traits, for instance Griffins represented valour, death defying bravery, and vigilance. Dragons represented valour and protection. Bears represented strength, cunning, and fierce protection of ones kindred.1 As you can see coat of arms had character implications. It is more likely that these crests had more to do with the founder of the family/the person who commissioned the crest to be made than the mythology of the region.

1.Meanings of Heraldic Elements
American College of Heraldry

Edited by King John - 30-Dec-2007 at 19:25
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2007 at 16:47

What is this supposed to show? I think you need to elaborate on this idea if you want people to respond. Personally I think you are playing fast and loose with etymologies here.

It shows Caucasian Albanians were the same Scythian Urupians, I searched about "Country of the eagle" -> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Country-of-the-eagle and I found there is already a country with this name and that is Albania.
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2007 at 17:41
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

There are several places in the south west of Russia (northeast of the Black Sea) with the names similar to Urup Saka (Scythian Urupians).

Urupskaya: http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/russia/map/m4241853/urupskaya.html
Urupsaja Pervaya: http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/russia/map/m4241852/urupsaja_pervaya.html
Urupskiy: http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/russia/map/p157134/urupskiy.html
Urupskiy: http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/russia/map/m4241856/urupskiy.html
Urupskiy: http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/russia/map/m4241855/urupskiy.html
Urupskiy Aul: http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/russia/map/m4241857/urupskiy_aul.html
Urupskiy Khrebet: http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/russia/map/p9193099/urupskiy_khrebet.html
Urupskiy Rayon: http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/russia/map/m4241858/urupskiy_rayon.html

I found this interesting article from www.FindArticles.com about one of them:

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3996/is_200207/ai_n9119082 (by Ivan Kurilla) -> Uryupinsk is the "capital city of Russia's provinces." Its name is so widely used in anecdotes about Russian "country bumpkins" that many Russians believe that it is the creation of some storyteller. Uryupinsk, however, really exists. About forty thousand inhabitants enjoy a healthy and picturesque environment on the river Khoper, three hundred kilometers (about two hundred miles) from Volgograd. -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uryupinsk

 
This is ridiculous. The origin of these words is Turkic. Urub means clough or gorge in Turkic.
 
The origin of the name Uryupinsk, comes from the name of a Tatar Khan Uryup.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Dec-2007 at 21:03
Originally posted by Sarmat12

 
This is ridiculous. The origin of these words is Turkic. Urub means clough or gorge in Turkic.
 
The origin of the name Uryupinsk, comes from the name of a Tatar Khan Uryup.
Wow that is great! Therefore Urup River in this region was also a Turkic word, yes? Did you know that Xenophon (431 355 BC) has also mentioned this river as Urpasus in Anabasis?

Edited by Cyrus Shahmiri - 31-Dec-2007 at 21:05
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Jan-2008 at 00:22
I don't know how Xenophon fits here.
 
The city of Uryupinsk stays on Hoper river. And was founded in the 14th century mostl likely by Tatar Cossacks in the service of Ryazan principality. No any historical source in Russia even mentions Xenophon with regard to to the history of Uryupinks.
 
And, besides, the river you mentioned is quite far from Uryupinsk.


Edited by Sarmat12 - 03-Jan-2008 at 00:26
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Posts: 246 		  Quote Tyranos Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 18:38
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

This is a serious discussion, of course by "Europeans" I meant just a tribe in the northeast of Europe not the whole modern European nations.



You seem to fascinated with trying to claim Northern Europeans as Iranians.


Europa was the name of a Phoenician Princess. We get the name Europe and all its usages, from the Romans and Greeks. Has nothing to do with Iranians or  a "Northern Europeans tribe".


Caucasian Albania is not the same as the one in the Balkans. Both names come from the Greeks and Romans besides. The double-headed Eagle comes from Rome too.


Edited by Tyranos - 10-Jan-2008 at 18:39
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This whole thread IMO is just nonsense.
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Posts: 2888 		  Quote Anton Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 11:49
Originally posted by Sarmat12

This whole thread IMO is just nonsense.
 
With all my respect, nonsense is also in the heads of some mods giving rude comments Wink You can't really prove that origin of the word is Turkic. You can probably suggest it is more likely Turkic but other suggestions are also valid. I would say that places pointed by Cyrus were inhabited by both Turkic and Iranic tribes so you should be more carefull with your suggestions.
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 19:43

Sarmat12, I have nothing to say to you, if you believe Sarmatians were also a Turkic people!

Europa was the name of a Phoenician Princess. We get the name Europe and all its usages, from the Romans and Greeks. Has nothing to do with Iranians or  a "Northern Europeans tribe".

Caucasian Albania is not the same as the one in the Balkans. Both names come from the Greeks and Romans besides. The double-headed Eagle comes from Rome too.

I just think the world is larger than Greece and Rome! however I know many people think like you, so don't worry, no one complains if you even say Chinese yang dragon also comes from Rome.
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Posts: 566 		  Quote Vorian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 23:14
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Sarmat12, I have nothing to say to you, if you believe Sarmatians were also a Turkic people!

Europa was the name of a Phoenician Princess. We get the name Europe and all its usages, from the Romans and Greeks. Has nothing to do with Iranians or  a "Northern Europeans tribe".

Caucasian Albania is not the same as the one in the Balkans. Both names come from the Greeks and Romans besides. The double-headed Eagle comes from Rome too.

I just think the world is larger than Greece and Rome! however I know many people think like you, so don't worry, no one complains if you even say Chinese yang dragon also comes from Rome.



Which part do you contest?

The fact that Europe's name came from a Greek myth or the Albania comes from Latin for white?
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Posts: 3113 		  Quote Sarmat Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2008 at 00:05
Originally posted by Anton

 
With all my respect, nonsense is also in the heads of some mods giving rude comments Wink You can't really prove that origin of the word is Turkic. You can probably suggest it is more likely Turkic but other suggestions are also valid. I would say that places pointed by Cyrus were inhabited by both Turkic and Iranic tribes so you should be more carefull with your suggestions.
 
The term Nonsense is not so rude as you think it's just something that makes no sense.  And now explain to me how the city Uriupinsk that was founded at the 14th century utmost (most of the sources actually give 16 century) was founded by Iranic tribes?
 
If you say that it was or even could, I  have to appologize, but it will mean that your understanding of the Russian history is very extravagant and makes no sense at all from the point of view of established and known facts and all the historical sources on the Russian history of this periods we have.
 
There simply no any Iranic tribes in the region in 14 century AD.
 
With the same kind confidence you can say that Uriupinks was found by Aliens and means "The Great Silver UFO" in Alien language.
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