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Temujin
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Sirdar Bahadur
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Topic: Georgia in Medieval Posted: 28-Nov-2005 at 15:16 |
you copied from wikipedias entry on Bagrationi, but the neutralicy of the article is disputed (for good reason).
check this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Armenians
most of them have names with -ian/yan, you will find not a signle -uni there, and its not Arshakuni, its Arsakid, Arsakes dynasty was Parthian, not Armenian in origin.
unlike:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Georgians
here, you not only find many names that end not just with -shvili but just -i, amongst them some Bagrationi family members, even one who foguht for Georgian independence...
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
lol
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isn't he of Armenian origin though?
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 28-Nov-2005 at 17:00 |
Temujin, the links you provided dont prove anything. An NBA player on
the Spurs named Tony Parker, is French by nationality and Algerian by
ancestry. The name Tony Parker is neither French or Algerian, and
therefore gives no clues or proof about his origin. The same can be
said about your links. There are many Armenians that have last names
ending in -ov and -oglu, this is because they are from Russia and
Turkey. It gives no clues about their ethnic background. I even have
Armenian friends with last names that end in -oglu, because their
parents are born in Turkey. Likewise, Georgians dont use the name
"Bagratuni", they Georgianized it and pronounce the name "Bagration".
Notice the Armenian version ends in -uni while the Georgian version of
the same name doesnt.
So your name theory really has no validity, considering theres not a
single Georigan surname ending with -uni on that list. Many of them end
in -dze or -vili, but not a single -uni. My Armenian teacher's surname
on the other hand, is Bagratuni. Yes, Bagratuni.
Armenian surnames in the first and early 2nd millenium A.D. rarely
ended with -ian, as Artaxiad pointed out. We learned this in Armenian
history class as well...most Armenian surnames of that period ended in
-uni. The -ian ending was rare and there were some exceptions such as
the Mamikonian noble family, which again Artaxiad already pointed out.
Sure, the Arsacids were not Armenian in origin (they were Parthian as
you said). Thats why others call them "Arsacid", and Armenians call
them "Arshakuni", because they ruled Armenia and hence their names
became Armenianized by the local population. We dont know them as the
Arsacids, only as the Arshakuni.
Also, the first rulers of a sovereign Armenia had the surname Yervanduni, and they ruled from 585-200 B.C.
Georgians adopted a lot of aspects of Armenian culture, such as the
adoption of Christianity as their state religion (Armenia was the first
Christian state on earth, with Georgia accepting not too long after),
as well as Armenian architecture. They adopted the architecture because
they had never built churches and therefore needed to take example from
someone (just how the Greeks adopted the Egyptian contrapasto pose for
their statues). Also, the Georgian alphabet was created by an Armenian
named Mesrob Mashdots. Notice his surname does not end in -ian (he
lived in the early 400's A.D.).
The two most famous Armenian historians are named Movses Khorenatsi and
Aristakes Lastiverci. Movses is from the 5th century A.D. while
Aristakes is from the 11th or 12th century. Again, theres no -ian
surnames. The -ian surname usage on a mass scale is only a few hundred
years old. The names on the list you provided are modern Armenian
names, radically different from Armenian names a few hundred years
earlier.
Plus, i already provided links that said the Bagratunis were active in
Armenia in in the late 200's A.D., while they appear in Georgia about a
thousand years later (with the migration of Prince Ashot of Armenia).
Edited by ArmenianSurvival
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Zagros
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Posted: 28-Nov-2005 at 17:40 |
There are also many Iranian names that end with ian/yan - the footballer Hashemian is not Armenian. I think Cyrus laughed because it is a Muslim name. Another example is Farshchian, the famous Iranian artist.
Iranian names generally end with - i , ian, zadeh, pur
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 28-Nov-2005 at 17:53 |
Yes Zagros you are right. I had a teacher with the last name -ian, but
he was ethnically 100% Persian. Do Iranians use -ian widely or only to
a certain extent? I ask because besides that one teacher, i have never
heard of anyone with an -ian surname that wasnt Armenian, even though
he told us some others use -ian, but only to a certain extent.
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Zagros
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Posted: 28-Nov-2005 at 18:11 |
It is not uncommon, I am not sure of the suffix in the surname context but "an" itself pluralises, "Iranian" in Persian means Iranians, "Irani" is singular.
I don't know if there is a connection with the plural or whther it is simply adopted from Armenian.
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Artaxiad
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Posted: 28-Nov-2005 at 20:29 |
A few Bagratunis still exist today, such as Karim Pakradouni.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karim_Pakradouni
There aren't a lot of them, because the Byzantines killed most, or all of the Armenian noble families.
Zagros, I thought that ''ian'' was of Persian origin.
Edited by Artaxiad
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Cyrus Shahmiri
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Posted: 29-Nov-2005 at 04:52 |
I have heard the Georgian name ending "adze" comes from the Persian name ending "Zadeh" (Born), is it true?
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Zagros
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Posted: 29-Nov-2005 at 05:58 |
It could be then, and if it is I would imagine that something like Hashemian would mean that he is from the Hashemi line.
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Temujin
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Posted: 29-Nov-2005 at 14:39 |
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival
Armenian surnames in the first and early 2nd millenium A.D. rarely ended with -ian, as Artaxiad pointed out. We learned this in Armenian history class as well...most Armenian surnames of that period ended in -uni. The -ian ending was rare and there were some exceptions such as the Mamikonian noble family, which again Artaxiad already pointed out. Sure, the Arsacids were not Armenian in origin (they were Parthian as you said). Thats why others call them "Arsacid", and Armenians call them "Arshakuni", because they ruled Armenia and hence their names became Armenianized by the local population. We dont know them as the Arsacids, only as the Arshakuni.
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i don't doubt that Armenians use -uni for certain names, but when they turned Arsaces dynasty into Arshakuni, why should i not assume they made the same with Bagrationi? plus, just because they ruled in Armenia before they ruled in Georgia isn't a waterproof evidence enough to say they are NOT of Georgian origin. and contrary to what you say the Bagrationis ruled Gerogia before they ruled Armenia, this migration of prince whatever stroy is a fable.
from Regnal Chronologies:
first Armenian ruler of Bagrationi royal house:
Smbat Bagratuni the Victorious................593-613
first georgian ruler of Bagrationi royal house:
BAGRATUNI
Vakhtang I Wolf-head...............................446-502
and ruled it to the end while the Bagrationis in Armenia where discontinued. itnerestignly enough, there was also a rebellion in Armenia in 481-482 led by a Bagrationi, that falls just within the rule of the first Georgian Bagrationi ruler...
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 29-Nov-2005 at 16:50 |
Vakhtang I was a Gorgasali. The first Bagratuni king of Georgia was
actually Gvaram I who ruled from 575-600 (only according to a Georgian
source). And that doesnt mean much, either. The Bagratunis had many
princes and prestiged family members for generations in Armenia before
they actually crowned the first Bagratuni king.
And I still fail to see why the wikipedia source is being completely disregarded.
Heres another source:
"For example, in his History of Armenia Movses Khorenatsi traces the
family origins of his sponsor prince Sahak Bagratuni to non-Armenian
roots. However, the historical sources prove the existence of Bagratuni
family in the most ancient period of the Armenian history and speak of
them as aboriginal Armenians . The linguistic analysis also maintains
that the name Bagarat most probably is of Indo-European origin and
stems from bhaga (god) and arat (plentiful, rich), i.e. literally
"divine plentitude" or "god's richness" . It is remarkable that prince
Bagratuni himself rejected Khorenatsi's version of the origins of his
family."
And when you mentioned the Bagratuni line being discontinued in Armenia
and continued in Georgia...that doesnt prove they are Georgian.
Armenian noble families would be killed all the time either by
competing families or by foreign governments. This is evident
throughout Armenian history:
"For example, in 705 the Arab ostikan (governor) of Armenia deceitfully
invited around 800 Armenian noblemen together with their guards to
Nakhichevan as if for negotiations and massacred them all .
Nevertheless, some Armenian noble houses lived through this tragedy and
continued their efforts to liberate the country. Some descendants of
the Armenian nobility achieved high-ranking positions at foreign royal
courts. For example, the offsprings of the Armenian noble house of
Artzruni became influential grandees at the Georgian court. The
Georgian branch of the Armenian noble family of Bagratuni was enthroned
as Bagrationi and became the reigning house on Georgia."
Link:http://nobility.artsakhworld.com/Atabekian_Arm_Nobi lty_History_Eng.htm
Edit: For some reason, everytime i post a link, there is always a space
somewhere in the link. Just close the spaces in the web address.
Edited by ArmenianSurvival
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Georgian
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Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 23:59 |
OK. I'm back now I was out of town for two weeks. tomorow I will upload a maps of medieval Georgia
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Iberia Gabrckindeba!
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Georgian
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Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 00:03 |
Originally posted by ArmenianSurvival
Also, the Georgian alphabet was created by an Armenian
named Mesrob Mashdots. Notice his surname does not end in -ian (he
lived in the early 400's A.D.).
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the Georgian alphabet was created by King Pharnavaz (284-219 B.C.), and not by Armenian.
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Iberia Gabrckindeba!
იბერია გაბრწყინდება!
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 03:51 |
The Georgian alphabet looks almost identical to the Armenian one. The
only sources which claim King Pharnavaz as the creator of the Georgian
alphabet are Georgian sources. Armenian and non-Armenian sources claim
Mesrob Mashdots as the creator. I knew you were going to say King
Pharnavaz, I have read Georgian sources.
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Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works!
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Herekles
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Posted: 05-Jun-2006 at 03:25 |
i
Edited by Herekles - 26-Jun-2006 at 22:22
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ArmenianSurvival
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Posted: 07-Jun-2006 at 20:59 |
Originally posted by Herekles
u can look up that the alphabet of georgian does not look armenian at all |
I said that the two alphabets are very similar because they had a
common creator (Mesrob Mashdots). You've obviously never laid your eyes
on the Armenian alphabet. As
someone who is fluent in Armenian, I see a myriad of similarities
between our script and the Georgian one. I have color-coded the similar
characters (I didn't list everything, obviously). Take a look:
Armenian:
Georgian:
I don't have time to list all the small similarities in each
letter, but you get the point. Not only are most of the letters
similar, but many of them are completely identical to one another. I
have no idea what you're talking about (btw, I'm showing the Old
Georgian script, which is what we should be looking at, but even the
modern Georgian script has a ton of similarities to the Armenian
script). Just so you know the Armenian script has never been changed
since its creation, so it doesn't matter which period I use; they're
all the same.
I agree with much of what you said except for the alphabet and
that the two families have nothing in common (they are different
branches of the same family). Why do you think their names are almost
identical, and that they were the ruling families of neighboring
countries? As I said before the Georgian Bagratunis (or Bagrations)
were full Georgians, and the only thing I said was that they
were a branch of an Armenian noble family which left Armenia and
settled in Georgia. After the first generation they were 100% Georgian.
Armenian history books even say that Queen Tamar and David the Builder
are Georgians. We're not trying to hijack your history.
Also, the Armenian Bagratunis are said to be originally Hebrews,
but theres little evidence to prove that. Chances are they only said
that in order to claim they are the descendents of David. Many Armenian
noble families claimed to be descended of other noble families or of
Biblical figures...just to give you an example, it was once a popular
notion that the Armenian people were the descendents of Noah since his
ark landed on Mt. Ararat. Theres not much evidence to prove anything in
either case.
Also, many Georgian churches are built in the Armenian style. Take a look:
Georgian church:
Armenia's most famous church, Etchmiadzin,built in 301, and older than
any Georgian church (since Georgia had not even accepted Christianity as a state religion until 30 years after this):
I see nothing but similarities. There is no denying that Georgians built many
of their churches (especially the ancient ones) in the Armenian style.
Edited by ArmenianSurvival - 07-Jun-2006 at 21:12
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Temujin
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Posted: 08-Jun-2006 at 16:13 |
btu as i said previously in the thread, Bagrationis appeared first in Gerogia, also their name implicates Georgian origin, not Armenian. and all the famous Bagrationis considdered themselves Georgians.
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Burdokva
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Posted: 17-Jun-2006 at 09:33 |
Are there any good books about georgian warfare, armor and weapons in the Middle Ages, apart from the pictures posted on the first page? Some more info about the architecture and culture in the region?
By the way, whats the castle behind the church in the picture above?
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Unity makes Strenght
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Datuna
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Posted: 01-Jul-2006 at 11:39 |
Armenians betrayed Vakhtang Gorgaslan,the founder of Tbilisi ,on the battle field against persians where he was murdered by Armenian throwing an arrow to him.....and in 1919 year Armenia demanded Tbilisi under their Rule and charged us without success......
As for Alphabets and church styles that's realy funny your claims.....in what century Armenian Alphabet was created?
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Peter III
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Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 13:56 |
I was also looking for some books on medieval Georgian history. Does anyone have any titles they can reccomend?
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Philhellene
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Posted: 15-Jul-2006 at 18:32 |
I have a book of G. Kauhchishvili about Georgian-Byzantine relationships ("Georgian sources on Byzantine history", in *.pdf) ", but it is in Russian and Georgian. It consists of fragments of ancient Georgian historians.
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