Your opinions about War in Iraq...

Originally posted by The Grim Reaper omshanti: I certainly do not see this as a conflict between Americans and Arabs �this is a unique conflict between the Arabs who have been victimized since 1948, and the Israelis who have been the benefactors of Western powers due largely to Zionist influences first in the United Kingdom, and in the latter part of the last century, the United States. This conflict is about how one side �whether Israeli or Arab, American or Muslim � refuses to acknowledge that the person on the other side is a human being, flesh and blood like you and I. Maybe one day we can all begin to see each other as people instead of as the enemy �and perhaps that day we will have peace.

Originally posted by King John Dude, your own sources don't even back you up. They don't say that it is illegal. What they say is that the USA strongly advises not to carry dual citizenship. One could carry dual citizenship under US Immigration Law with out renouncing either country. Example: Being born outside the United States to one parent who is a U.S. citizen, and another parent who is a citizen of another country. You don't have to renounce your citizenship to be a US citizen since it is not illegal. Here is another quote about "Dual Citizenship" this time from usimmigrationsupport.org: "The United States does not formally recognize dual citizenship. However, it also does not taken any stand against it, either legally or politically. Typically, no American will forfeit his or her citizenship by undertaking the responsibilities of citizenship in another country. This is true even if the responsibilities include traveling with a foreign passport, voting in another country's election, or running for and/or serving in public office of another country. In most cases, it is unimportant to the United States whether another country also claims you as a citizen." - Dual Citizenship - usimmigrationsupport.org Your own sources say that you only lose your US Citizenship if you INTEND to relinquish it. Could you please provide a cite for your claim that Jews in the Administration hold dual citizenship. Specifically can you please provide a cite for the citizenship of the following people Richard Perle, Elliot Abrams, Paul Wolfowitz, William Kristol, Ari Fleschier. All of these people you claim hold dual citizenship. I want actual proof of this.

First of all don't call me kid. You don't help your argument by calling me little terms of endearment like kid, and muchacho. How old are you that you get to call people kid and muchacho?

I have done research on the issue and can't find the laws that you are citing here. Cite the law where it is explicitly stated as being illegal. "May lose" doesn't mean that it is illegal it means there is a possiblity. If you hold dual citizenship and fight against the US then guess what you lose your citizenship but you don't just lose it for applying. In regards to your UK example I have friends you have dual citizenship from the US and the UK so um not really a good example. Are there ways to hold dual citizanship with out applying for it? Yes there are, for instance one can be born in American to parents who are not American citizens. Guess what the child holds both American citizenship and the citizenship of the child's parents. Want another example? Ok I'll give you one. You marry a US citizen and you are not then guess what you now have dual citizenship, you don't have to renounce foreign countries. Oh by the way just because they don't approve of it doesn't mean it is illegal there are many things that the government doesn't approve of that are legal, i.e. same sex relationships, abortion just to name two.

I was just asking you to improve your argument, especially for extraodinary claims like calling members of the administration "heinous criminals."

Again let's not make broad generalizations, by doing so you just show your ignorance. Wait let me go further you are a person who and often show your ignorance by not providing sources and talking in broad sweeping generalizations along with stereotypes.

Just a suggestion don't resort to calling people names it belittles your argument. Notice how I haven't called you any names which I easily could have done.

Edited by King John - 16-Jan-2007 at 22:43

Originally posted by King John First of all don't call me kid. You don't help your argument by calling me little terms of endearment like kid, and muchacho. How old are you that you get to call people kid and muchacho?

 

I'm not much older than you. How is this relevant to the discussion?

 

Originally posted by King John I have done research on the issue and can't find the laws that you are citing here.

 

You've done research on the issue? Seems as if you weren't even aware of it until I pointed it out.

 

Originally posted by King John Cite the law where it is explicitly stated as being illegal.

 

If you would have done the research as you claim to have done, then you would already know the answer to this. As I already stated, the courts willfully left this aspect of dual immigration vague since there was no way to enforce the law against dual citizenship.

 

Originally posted by King John "May lose" doesn't mean that it is illegal it means there is a possiblity.

 

It implies that if the US State Department found out about the matter �then if they wanted to, they could pursue legal recourse and revoke your US citizenship, however they hardly ever do this b/c it is so damn difficult to enforce and b/c it is not considered a pressing issue for the State Department to resolve!

 

Originally posted by King John If you hold dual citizenship and fight against the US then guess what you lose your citizenship but you don't just lose it for applying.

 

You are completely wrong in your assertion here. The very act of applying for foreign citizenship and swearing an oath of allegiance to a foreign nation is grounds for the US State Department to revoke your citizenship. You should read more carefully. Your profile says that you're a grad student �sure doesn't seem like it.

 

http://www.foreignborn.com/visas_imm/immigrant_visas/2dual_nationality.htm

 

a person who acquires a foreign citizenship by applying for it may lose U.S. citizenship. In order to lose U.S. citizenship, the law requires that the person must apply for the foreign citizenship voluntarily, by free choice, and with the intention to give up U.S. citizenship.  Intent can be shown by the person's statements or conduct." 

 

Swearing an oath of allegiance to a foreign nation shows intent to give up US citizenship.

 

Originally posted by King John In regards to your UK example I have friends you have dual citizenship from the US and the UK so um not really a good example.

 

I don't care about your friends and their experiences. I have friends who run red lights and swear that they have never gotten a traffic ticket �does that mean that running red lights is okay?

 

You ask me to provide you with proof and you turn around and give me some shady examples of what your friends may or may not have experienced? Is this supposed to provide me with proof of the UK's immigration laws? How are your friends experiences relative to this conversation? What do your friends have to do with this discussion? When you sit down and right an essay or paper for your grad program and the instructor asks you for references or sources�do you use your friends as references? Does your instructor accept your friends references as valid sources???

 

I will give you an example of how simply ridiculous your argument is:

 

"Hey John! Did you know that the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is an absolute monarchy? It is! I have friends in the UK and they told me so!"

 

^^^ I hope you catch my drift there �and for the record, the UK is constitional monarchy even though my friends swear otherwise. lmfao

 

Originally posted by King John Are there ways to hold dual citizanship with out applying for it?

 

This was never the premise of the argument.

 

But if you would like a response from me, I will surmise that this is one of the reasons that the US immigration laws on dual citizenship are so ambigous �b/c it is impossible to enforce due to exact said circumstances. Thanks a bunch for validating my argument.

 

Originally posted by King John Yes there are, for instance one can be born in American to parents who are not American citizens.

 

If a child is born to parents who are not American citizens �then that child may be a citizen of the land he or she was born in �if he/she were born in America, then yes, tht child would be an American citizen, but would he/she be a citizen of the country his/her parents originated from? That would depend on the individual laws of the respective country.

 

Originally posted by King John Guess what the child holds both American citizenship and the citizenship of the child's parents.

 

Guess what? No he does not! He would hold American citizenship but may or may not hold foreign citizenship elsewhere �it depends on the foreign country! Do you know the immigration laws of every foreign nation on earth???

 

Originally posted by King John Want another example? Ok I'll give you one. You marry a US citizen and you are not then guess what you now have dual citizenship, you don't have to renounce foreign countries.

 

Your argument is extremely flawed b/c as any person with a minute understanding of immigration law can tell you:

 

MARRYING A US CITIZEN ALLOWS YOU THE OPPORTUNITY TO APPLY FOR LEGAL RESIDENCY �IT DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY MAKE YOU A US CITIZEN!

 

Originally posted by King John Oh by the way just because they don't approve of it doesn't mean it is illegal there are many things that the government doesn't approve of that are legal, i.e. same sex relationships, abortion just to name two.

 

Homosexuality, abortion, and fornication used to be illegal in the United States and still are in some states. Do you know that in some Bible Belt states, engaging in anal or oral intercourse with another person �even if that person is your spouse �is illegal? It just is not enforced. Ask your law professor about it. He can tell you better than I.

 

How many times do I have to explain to you that the laws in regards to dual citizenship were willfully left ambigous by the courts do to the very fact that the enforcement of a ban on dual citizenship is not a pressing matter for the US State Department AND b/c it is just is not enforceable?

 

Find me a source where the US government explicitely acknowledges that dual citizenship is either legal or favorable? Let me save you the time: you won't find any such laws!

 

If dual citizenship were legal or favorable then why would the US government reserve the right to revoke American citizenship at will?

Originally posted by King John I was just asking you to improve your argument, especially for extraodinary claims like calling members of the administration "heinous criminals."

 

You really think that Richard Perle, Elliot Abrams, Paul Wolfowitz, Ari Fleischer, William Kristol, and other openly Zionist neoconservatives who masterminded the invasion of Iraq on behalf of Israel and deceived the American public in doing so �are not heinous criminals? Do you think that 14 year old Abeer Qasim Hamza Al-Janabi would have been gangraped by American soldiers, her body set afire, and her mother, father, and six-year old sister murdered had it not been for this invasion? Are these criminals who falsely led America to war not equally as guilty of her rape and death as the five American soldiers who were physically there as she screamed for them to stop?

Originally posted by King John Again let's not make broad generalizations, by doing so you just show your ignorance.

 

Broad generalizations like the example you posted above about your friends and their so-called dual citizenship? Yeah, that was an excellent example of making broad generalizations. lmfao

 

Originally posted by King John Wait let me go further you are a person who and often show your ignorance by not providing sources and talking in broad sweeping generalizations along with stereotypes.

 

^^^ Why I do believe that was a sweeping generalization about me!

 

 

Originally posted by Grim Reaper How is this relevant to the discussion?

Well, I'm no legal expert but I became a naturalized US citizen in 2000 and I wasn't asked to relinguish my other citizenship at any point during the process. To me it seemed like the US is satisfied with the oath new citizens take which states that you "relinquish allegiance to all other states, nations, tribes and potentates" or something like that.

The resistance in Iraq is completely justified.

Originally posted by King John Grim please see these sites. There are no laws requiring automatic loss of citizenship. You keep saying that US Law prohibits dual citizenship when in fact it doesn't. Again see these sites and please do us all a favor by reading them before you respond. http://www.richw.org/dualcit/faq.html http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/search/display.html?terms=Dual%20nationality&url=/uscode/html/uscode08/usc_sec_08_00001482----000-.html http://www.richw.org/dualcit/law.html#CitByBirth http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_778.html http://travel.state.gov/travel/cis_pa_tw/cis/cis_1753.html PS I am no longer posting on this thread.

Grim, it used to be true that the US didn't recognise dual citizenship, but it isn't any more. My stepdaughter, mother American, father Danish, has both US and Danish citizenship, and legally carries both passports.

Originally posted by Zaitsev Feanor, it would make more sense to say "SOME" of the resistance is justified.

Every single armed invader must get the **** out of Iraq. Until then the resistance is totally rightful.