Women and Revolution in Iran

This is the original article about Roya Toloee, written in Sunday Telegraph , by Philip Sherwell in Washington.

Originally posted by morticia While I agree with you regarding the credibility of the website,

 

The credibility of the website is only in question because the administrators of that site have a specific agenda. The publishers, contributors, and viewers of that website have a vested interest in promoting their agenda, in propagating against the current Iranian state because it is ruled by theocratic Islamists opposed to American and Zionist influence in the Middle East and in Islamic nations.

 

Note: The terms Zionists and Jewish are not interchangeable. A Jew is a person adhering to the Judaic faith or having Hebrew heritage. I am sure you already are aware of this but I would like to reiterate, that Judaism is a faith, a religion thousands of years old, which is akin to Islam, and the Jewish people are of a Semitic background as are the Arabs.

 

Zionism is not Judaism, and Zionists are not Jews. Zionism is a political movement that was started in the late 1880s with the specific purpose of creating a homeland for the Jewish people. Zionists are simply put, Jewish extremists in the same fashion in which Islamists are Muslim radicals.

 

Sorry for going off topic but I did not want to be accused of being anti-Semitic for having attacked the credibility of a pro-Zionist, anti-Islamic website.

 

Originally posted by morticia I also know that an oppressed woman with a tale to tell would speak to anyone who is willing to hear her.

 

This is the story of ONE woman. I do not know the specifics of her case, and neither do you, and neither does Mazier. I do not want to side with her or against her based on allegations which were made on an obviously biased website.

 

Iran is not some Fourth World radically fundamentalist nation like Afghanistan, it has a rich history of education and learning, and is one of the most advanced countries of the Islamic world and the Middle East � it is on par with other developing nations, and as such, there are legal precedents in place to deal with such crimes.

 

Also, if her story had been credible, then it would have been picked up by a more credible news agency, would it have not?

 

Originally posted by morticia I am sure that had she made such statements and remained in Iran, she would probably be executed by now.

 

Your assumption is incorrect. As I said just moments ago, there are legal precedents in place, and legal avenues in which this woman can go through to voice her concern. Prior to the election of Mahmoud Ahmadinejad (the current president), the previous president, Mohammed Khatami and his reformist following were making progress within the country.

 

I am not trying to paint a rosy picture of Iran or Islam for you. The mullahs who rule over Iran today are not evil, they are trying to do for their land, and their people, what they think is right � unfortunately, they are doing so by force, and one cannot be forced to love God, or love a religion. It is the same with any other political party, the political party in power tries in earnest to enforce their views on the population. Prior to the Islamic Revolution, the Shah of Iran � who was nothing more than a puppet installed, paid, and protected by the CIA after the US government and Great Britain removed the democratically elected president of Iran from power in 1953 due to their own oil interests � also enforced his views upon the population.

 

Mazier is complaining because the political views he shares, and the politicians that his family supported � the Shah- were deposed and driven from power.  These Shahis do not care about the national welfare of Iranian women � they are using it in their propaganda to win back power!

 

Originally posted by morticia It was after she fled Iran that she made those statements.

 

I am going to refrain from passing judgment about her or her accusations until I am completely aware of the issues at hand. I do not know the specifics of the case and I refuse to let myself be influenced by one individual who I do not know, and who may or may not have a political agenda.

 

Originally posted by morticia Some years ago, here, in the US, a tabloid magazine (The Enquirer), which IMO is totally lacking in credibility, published an article about Frank Gifford (a famous ball player) and his scandalous infidelities towards wife, Kathy Lee Gifford, which were totally true and admitted by both Frank and Kathy Lee.

 

If I recall correctly, the The Enquirer also paid the flight attendant to lure and film Frank Gifford cheating on his wife. It was a set up � and that speaks volumes for the credibility of The National Enquirer and other tabloids.

 

Originally posted by morticia My point is that although the tabloid paper was not credible, the story told was totally true, and, as such, the fact that a website is not credible does not mean that Roya Tolouee�s statements are untrue.

 

And my point is that the stories found on a national tabloid and a political blog should be taken with a grain of salt.

 

Originally posted by morticia Of course, as usually occurs in similar type rape of women cases, it's her word against her offender (a government official)...which translates to: she doesn't stand a chance of an appropriate defense.

She would not stand a chance if she were a Muslim woman in Chechnya getting raped by drunken Russian soldiers, she would not stand a chance if she were a Muslim woman in Bosnia getting raped by Serbian soldiers, she would not stand a chance if she were a Muslim in Iraq getting raped by American soldiers.

Originally posted by morticia Well, then I ask you: These MEN, which are placed in positions of authority over these women, are they Muslims or non-Muslims?

 

These are MEN. They cannot be true Muslims because if they were, then they would not have dared rape a Muslim woman.

 

They may be nominally Muslim � and by that I mean that they may have been born into Muslim families but certainly did not practice the religion.

 

Originally posted by morticia Are these MEN reprimanded or punished in any way for raping women prisoners?

 

Yes. There are laws in place in both Islam and in Iranian society which punish criminals and wrongdoers � and Islam punishes rapists extremely severly.

 

Originally posted by morticia Would these raped female prisoners even attempt to report a rape?

 

I cannot answer that. I am going to assume that they would considering Iran is a nation of laws and women would be afforded the right to defend their honor and also bring those who would violate them to justice but rape is greatly underreported in Western societies so I fear that since Islamic cultures place great emphasis on honor, virtue, and purity � it is underreported far more in Muslim societies.

 

 

Originally posted by morticia Has there ever been a complaint filed by a woman prisoner in Iran that she was raped by an official?

 

I am sorry, but I do not know. I am assuming that there obviously would be because Islam and the Islamic clergy view rape as a very serious crime and if a woman was violated, then her family would also seek not only justice but reparations from the family of the rapist.

 

The thing you fail to understand of Islam and rape is that if someone commits a rape or sexual assault �it is not only the woman that is being dishonored, the rapist is endangering himself and the lives of his family members by engaging in such a heinous crime.

 

Originally posted by morticia As you stated, these MEN have �no fear of any condemnation for consequences for their actions� (btw - if that's not condoning their actions, then I don't know what else to call it),

 

I was generalizing. I said that when MEN are placed in positions of power where there is little fear of them being condemned and/or having to bear repercussions for their actions � then they will become like wild animals and loot, and rape, and murder � and this has happened throughout the history of mankind and every race is guilty of it.

 

Do not be so quick to pass judgment on Iran. Mr. Taguba, in his findings of atrocities committed by US troops in Abu Ghraib noted that in one incident, he had seen pictures of naked Iraqi female prisoners and there was proof of an American soldier having sex with a female Iraqi prisoner. He did not say that she was being raped.

 

Tell me something mortician, if a female Iraqi is being held in an American-run prison and she is a Muslim barred from engaging in premarital or extramarital sexual relations � do you think then that she willingly had sex with that American soldier? It was rape was it not? Then why did the US not investigate or punish that soldier or other soldiers who were involved? Does that mean that the US military condones rape of Iraqi women?

 

Originally posted by morticia but even you have to admit that sort of behavior should not be tolerated and that at the very least, the women should have the right to report said rapes and have the right to confront her offenders and have them punished in some way for their actions.

 

 

Even I have to admit? Am I misinterpreting this? Why would even I have to admit this? I am not on the side of the culprits. Of course I will say that rape and sexual violence against women and children should never be tolerated and punished with death or castration.

Originally posted by morticia And you speak for ALL Muslim men when you state this?

 

I speak from experience. I am sure that any lowlife regardless of religion would rape a woman if there were fear of retribution but I am saying that a devout Muslim, God-fearing Muslim would not because they perceive all Muslim women as being their sisters and even refer to them as such.

 

Originally posted by morticia Also, bear in mind that Catholics have �priests� who, although considered holy men who have taken a vow of celibacy, have admittedly raped young boys to satisfy their sexual urges.

 

The Roman Catholic faith does not bind men and women of different economic, ethnic, and racial backgrounds as the Islamic faith does. The comparison is invalid.

 

If you look at the history of the Roman Catholic faith, you will notice that those individuals with homosexual tendencies were often sent to monasteries to commit themselves to God � and instead of committing themselves to the values of Christ � they instead engaged in homosexual behavior and often took advantage of younger children �this was common practice in the medieval monasteries of Europe, and even the Popes of Rome raped women and violated children. This type of behavior is not found amongst Muslim clerics or devout Muslims.

 

Originally posted by morticia My point is that not all men have the same discipline and control of their instinctive sexual desires.

And my point is that devout Muslim men would have this discipline because their faith instructs them to defend the honor of Muslim women � not to violate it.

 

Why is it that the Islamic fighters in Chechnya have never once raped a Muslim Chechen woman or even a Russian woman residing in Chechnya (about 50% of population of Chechnya is composed of Orthodox Christian or atheist Russians) but the Russian soldiers indulge themselves in the mass rapes of Chechen women? Why is it that the Islamic fighters do not rape Russian or Chechen women? It is because their Islamic faith forbids it.

 

Originally posted by morticia I am sure that some men (no matter what faith, ethnicity, etc.) may go �astray� at one point or another, especially those knowing that these women have no rights and, therefore, can do nothing in their defense.

 

I keep repeating myself here but I am telling you that women do have rights under Islam and in Iranian society. They are just not as liberated as Western women but that goes for 75% of the known world.

 

Is the situation for women in Iran bad? Yes. Is it as bad as Mazier makes it out to be? Hell no. Have the rights of women taken a backseat to the Islamist policies of Iran? Yes. Is reform being made? Yes, and that will take time.

Originally posted by morticia And how is this the woman�s fault? Why should she be subjected to cruel and inhuman punishment because the MEN had no control of their �needs and desires�?

 

Of course it is not the fault of the female victim. I never said it was. I am fully in support of executing or castrating any rapist or pedophile � even on their first offense.

 

Originally posted by morticia If history has shown that sort of behavior, then all the more reason to make sure it doesn�t happen again.

 

Unfortunately, it is all too common. Did Americans not rape Native American women? Did Americans in the then Texas Republic not rape Mexican women? Did Americans not rape Vietnamese women? Are the Americans not raping Iraqi women? There have been at least 13 documented cases of American soldiers raping Iraqi females since the beginning of the war � why did the Pentagon not take this seriously? Why was it not front-page news in America? Was it because the Pentagon, and the American press, and the American military condone such behavior or is it because the national media outlets feared a backlash from the conservative right, they did not want to appear anti-American.

Originally posted by morticia Master Blaster..... I think you are brilliant,

 

Thank you, but I think you give me too much undeserved credit.

 

Originally posted by morticia and, although I recognize that any article can be embellished to benefit an affiliated political view, you have to agree that raping women (for any reason) is cruel and unacceptable behavior and something has to be done about it.

 

Of course I agree.

 

Originally posted by morticia Oppressed women suffer greatly, not only physically but mentally as well.

 

I am not trying to glorify Islam; it has its faults, as does any other man-made invention. And I too want Iranian, Muslim, Asian, Eastern European, Latina, etc. women and girls to be able to have access to the same equality and the same freedoms as women in America and the West do � but I realize that vilifying an entire religion or an entire government is not going to accomplish that. What Mazier is trying to do is vilify the Islamic faith, and the Islamist-minded government of Iran � and all I am doing is telling him that rape and sexual crimes do not go hand in hand with any particular religion or race of people. The problems with men taking advantage of women are found in every society and they existed before the Islamic Revolution in Iran and they will exist even after until men learn to respect women in all societies.

 

Originally posted by morticia I have no doubt that most men are gentlemen and protect and honor their female counterparts,

 

You have more faith than men that I do. Men are inherently evil. For the sake of humanity, I hope that you are right.

 

Originally posted by morticia but there is always going to be a certain percentage (in any religion) that have some sort of mental disabilities, anger management issues or other impediments which would lead them to contrary behavior.

 

Originally posted by morticia THERE IS NO EXCUSE FOR RAPING A WOMAN, PERIOD!

 

I agree 100% There is never an excuse for raping a woman, or sexually molesting a child, and I am appalled that sex predators in the United States and other countries are not dealt with as harshly as they are in Islamic societies where rapists are typically hung to death or executed for violating a woman.

 

Originally posted by morticia And when a government does nothing about it, it is surely condoning such behavior.

 

The government is not idle. As I said before, there exist, legal precedents in Islam, and in Iranian society to deal with criminality and criminal behavior at all levels.

 

Originally posted by morticia Let me clarify that this is not a "religion" issue for me, it's a "woman's rights" issue.

 

This was only made a religion issue because of the way Mazier chooses to present it. If the Martians (hypothetically speaking) ruled Iran, then he would have vilified the Martian race instead of arguing for the civil rights of women. He is using this merely as a pawn. He and his kind do not care for the well being of women � they only care to see his own political types in power again. If his kind cares so much about the rights of women �then why is he not protesting against the atrocities committed by Russian soldiers in Chechnya? Or the rapes of African women in Sub-Saharan Africa or any other place in the world where women suffer? You should now know the answer to that.

 

Originally posted by morticia It does not matter if the perpetrator is Muslim, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish or whatever religious background....the fact is that women are being raped and have no right to accuse and punish her offender.

 

I agree wholeheartly.

 

Originally posted by morticia That is unjust, unfair and harsh treatment of women. Rapes will continue as long as the government does nothing to stop them or punish those who rape, and the government will keep doing nothing until women uprise and protest until they turn blue in the face...and then some!

 

Originally posted by morticia I also realize that if some of these women uprise and protest, they will be KILLED! Not a very comforting thought!

 

No, they will not. Women can protest in a dignified and peaceful manner for their rights in Iran, it is when they attack the virtues of Islam that their protests will be put down. Women are allowed to receive an education, obtain divorce, and gain employment in Iran, they are also allowed to walk out of their houses without being accompanied by a male relative, they are allowed to wear makeup, purchase lingerie, go to malls, etc. They are not allowed to drink or have premarital sexual relations or engage in prostitution and other vices.

 

Of course the IRI does force all Muslim Iranian women to wear the chador or veil but many women wore the veil before the Islamic Revolution and would do so willingly even in a secular and democratic Iran.

Originally posted by morticia Another question I ask you: If good, honest, Muslim men, know that some women are being unfairly and unjustly raped, why are they not doing anything for those women?

 

 

First of all, every single rape against a woman or child is unfair and unjust.

 

American troops know that Iraqi women are being unfairly, unjustly raped by other American troops � why are they not doing anything about it?

 

And also, bear in mind, that there is only so much one person can do. Iran has a 40% unemployment rate, and as is human nature, people will first worry about their own well being before they seek to aid the well being of others.

 

Originally posted by morticia Why are they allowing such behavior? Can they not report it to the appropriate government agency (if the female is unable to)?

 

I really do not know the answer to that. Why do 80% of rapes in the United States go unreported?

 

Originally posted by morticia Can they not insist that the government do something about women's right? I find the men just as responsible for the treatment of these women for not supporting them!

 

You are expecting far too much in far too short a period of time. Recall that it was not until the 1920s that women received the right to vote in America, and that until the Renaissance and even during it, Christian European women were considered property of their husbands, brothers, and fathers, and hence, their marriages were arranged?

 

The point is that you are expecting that an Islamic people like the Iranians install Western style norms, values, and systems of governance in a matter of decades whereas it took Europe at least 2000 years to develop this style of democracy and equal rights which we take for granted today. Iran, India, China, and Iraq will develop in accordance to their own histories and in their own time � you should not judge non-Westerners, non-Americans in the same fashion as you do other Westerners, this would be an unfair comparison. Do Iranians come up to you and ask you why Americans do not live with their parents or put their parents in nursing homes instead of looking after them in their old age? Do Iranians judge you for having premarital sexual relations or wearing mini skirts or bikinis? No, of course they do not, for you and I as Westerners, have a different upbringing, and a different history and culture than them.

 

Behzad, I commend you. That was a very good post.

 

Behzad - Welcome to the Women�s History forum and thank you for your enlightening post regarding this topic. Hopefully, some day the people of Iran (men and women) will find some common ground in which to co-exist harmoniously.

Maziar - Thank you for behaving! Always remember that there is no need to offend others� religion, ethnicity, etcetera to get your point across. The whole idea behind this thread is to bring awareness to all regarding the struggles that women face in Iran (not only in Iran but all around the world, however, this thread is on Iranian women). Let�s show these women that they are not alone, that others are aware and feel their pain and restrictions, and that there is hope for them to someday feel the same freedom and equality that men experience.

Master Blaster - whom I thoroughly enjoy reading and who has a way of putting things in perspectives. Although I agree that the treatment of these women has been traditional and cultural for centuries, it does not mean that those same conditions should remain the same for all eternity. I have already stated that such changes take time....but some steps (no matter how small) must be taken. You seem to defend the system that is keeping these women from advancing, even though you indicate they are �doing what they feel is the right thing to do� but �unfortunately by force�.

Master Blaster says: �This is the story of ONE woman."

Yes, ONE BRAVE woman who had the courage to speak out and tell of her experience. Hopefully, maybe others will now follow suit!

Master Blaster says: �I said that when MEN are placed in positions of power where there is little fear of them being condemned and/or having to bear repercussions for their actions � then they will become like wild animals and loot, and rape, and murder � and this has happened throughout the history of mankind and every race is guilty of it.�

And so that makes said behavior OK? As I said before, the mere fact that it�s been occurring throughout history does not make it right...and efforts should be made to gradually change that mentality and learn how to exercise control accordingly.

Master Blaster says the following:
�... naked Iraqi female prisoners and there was proof of an American soldier having sex with a female Iraqi prisoner�

�...if a female Iraqi is being held in an American-run prison and she is a Muslim barred from engaging in premarital or extramarital sexual relations...�

�Then why did the US not investigate or punish that soldier or other soldiers who were involved? Does that mean that the US military condones rape of Iraqi women?�

�Did Americans not rape Native American women? Did Americans in the then Texas Republic not rape Mexican women? Did Americans not rape Vietnamese women? Are the Americans not raping Iraqi women? There have been at least 13 documented cases of American soldiers raping Iraqi females since the beginning of the war � why did the Pentagon not take this seriously? Why was it not front-page news in America? Was it because the Pentagon, and the American press, and the American military condone such behavior or is it because the national media outlets feared a backlash from the conservative right, they did not want to appear anti-American."

Plus various other anti-America/American/Americanism comments

May I ask what all this ranting and raving is really about? I have great respect for you, Master Blaster, but I have to be honest and express that I resent your numerous anti-American comments on this topic. Why are you doing this? Is it because I am a American? It seems to me that you are now doing the same thing you accused Maziar of doing. Let me clarify that I am not HERE as an American, but as a WOMAN, whose main interest is in bringing awareness regarding women�s poor treatment and struggle worldwide (this particular thread is on Iranian women). Your anti-American comments are not well taken and I ask that you cease and desist. If you are not comfortable with an American woman discussing an Iranian woman, then merely stating so should suffice and I will merely back off.

Master Blaster says:   
�The point is that you are expecting that an Islamic people like the Iranians install Western style norms, values, and systems of governance in a matter of decades whereas it took Europe at least 2000 years to develop this style of democracy and equal rights which we take for granted today. Iran, India, China, and Iraq will develop in accordance to their own histories and in their own time � you should not judge non-Westerners, non-Americans in the same fashion as you do other Westerners, this would be an unfair comparison. Do Iranians come up to you and ask you why Americans do not live with their parents or put their parents in nursing homes instead of looking after them in their old age? Do Iranians judge you for having premarital sexual relations or wearing mini skirts or bikinis? No, of course they do not, for you and I as Westerners, have a different upbringing, and a different history and culture than them."

It was not my intention to, nor do I feel that I have judged anything or anyone. If bringing forth stories of women who have been poorly treated is judging a culture and offends others, then how are these women ever going to be heard? How are these women ever going to advance and see any progress if men turn their backs on their struggle (or minimize the impact of their struggle) and defend the very system that is keeping them trapped? Women�s rights should be an openly discussed topic no matter what cultural or religious background applies. The words and phrases written here certainly won�t change anything , but don�t tell me I�m being judgmental when all I am doing is bringing awareness of the progress (and/or lack thereof) of women�s woes. The bottom line is that WOMEN are human beings and should have the same rights and freedom that MEN human beings experience, irrespective of cultural or religious beliefs.


    

Edited by morticia - 08-Jun-2006 at 15:57

Originally posted by Morticia Maziar - Thank you for behaving! Always remember that there is no need to offend others� religion, ethnicity, etcetera to get your point across.

Master Blaster says: �Why are you so defensive? Are you implying that an American soldier or American male would never commit rape?�

No, not being defensive as I was not offended by your comments, but just overwhelmed by all the �anti-American� inferences you made (which btw were unnecessary � simply mentioning one or two examples would have surely given me the point). However, I never implied that �American males would never commit rape� (where do you get that from?)as I usually refer to "males" in general. This is a thread about Iranian women and how we got from there to Americans this and Americans that, I don�t know. In any event, I appreciate and thank you for the clarification.

Master Blaster says: �Did you not accuse me of being anti-American when all I did was openly discuss the suffering inflicted upon non-American women by American men?�

That's find and dandy, but, again, you�re off topic. I simply asked you to please cease and desist with the anti-American comments. Save them for when I open the �American Woman� topic. This particular thread is about Iranian women and their struggle for basic human rights, which, although improved, is far from the equality women truly seek and desire� not only in Iran, but all over the world.

Master Blaster says: �Civil discussion is always a positive. And if nothing else, at least the two of us and anyone else who may come across this will be more informed about the issue.�

I totally agree. Communication is vital for humans to relate to and to learn from one another. I have learned that although the Iranian woman�s progress has been slow, it has had some reforms. I recently read that more Iranian women are attending schools now. But women everywhere still have a ways to go, and they must keep fighting and peacefully protesting so that their causes will remain up front and center and not forgotten or ignored.

Maziar says: ��if you believe in democracy you should be tolerant. In a democratic system no one should fear to criticize and to have doubt on Islam. A person who believes in democracy should not dismiss another people's ideas and critics and claim they are offending Islam. �

I agree with Maziar in that history has shown us that everything is debatable, and, as has been demonstrated in many topics here at AE, there are many sides to one story and different views on any particular subject. Every issue has pros and cons and I find it refreshing to be able to openly discuss a topic without the fear of inadvertently offending anyone�s personal preferences � it is hard to do and there are limitations. History has also shown us that PERFECTION does not exist�nothing is perfect (modifications for the betterment of mankind (and womankind) should always be an option). One of the benefits of a free society is to allow each person the option of choices. However, in order to make a well informed decision, all views (pros and cons) must be thoroughly analyzed to come to the right conclusion of what is best for each individual and their respective families.

Question: Do men feel threatened by women's movements? or are most men supportive of women's advancements? Are men fearful that they will not be able to control the women's actions once they've establish some independence? One forumer here posted that he was in favor of women having "some" rights, but that he feared some would become "sluts". Is that a general consensus of the Iranian man's thoughts towards women's rights?

I note that most of the men who participated here are supportive of women's advancement(to a certain extent). However, having contact with the "western world" was probably influential in some way. But what about the Iranian men who have had little or no western contact, what are their true feelings about the advancement of women. Do they condone or condemn basic human rights for women?

In my quest to find unbiased views regarding the women's struggles in Iran, I came across a few articles which I wanted to share with all here. I urge both Maziar and Master Blaster (and of course all others who wish to participate) to comment on their accuracies and/or inaccuracies. I found these articles informative and enlightening in both the cultural and political aspects of the Iranian people.

This one, for example,although an old article from 2000 was written by Mehrangiz Kar (a woman) who clearly defines the pros and cons facing Iranian women and their struggles under the system. She discusses what Iranian women have lost on the orders of revolutionary and religious zealots, she writes about what women have succeeded in achieving over the past two decades through their own efforts, and actually makes positive predictions (prognosis) of what the future holds for Iranian women.

http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2000/April/Women/



I learned quite a bit about the women's movement in Iran from this article which chronologically (1850-2000) states the progression of same. It also enlightened me about the cultural and political aspects of the Iranians. Again, I urge Maziar and Master Blaster to comment on its credibility.

http://www.iranian.com/History/2000/March/Women/index3.html



Another, more recent article (2004) written by Donna M. Hughes, who is a Professor & Carlson Endowed Chair in Women�s Studies of the University of Rhode Island for the Committee in Support of Referendum in Iran
Washington, D.C. (July 7, 2004) and for the Canadian Committee for Democracy in Iran, Toronto, Canada      (July 8, 2004). This also brings forth an in depth analysis of the women's crisis in Iran. I particularly embraced her statement, �Those of us with freedom of speech and freedom of association, which are denied to activists in Iran, must use them to support the freedom fighters in Iran." "... there are millions of people who want to be free.�

http://www.wfafi.org/only-democracy.htm



On the other side of the coin, this article, although a bit alarming, still captures another side of the women's struggles, and I feel it's views should be presented and discussed as well. It's about the women who have been executed and those still on "death row".

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1088

    
    
    
    

Edited by morticia - 11-Jun-2006 at 10:16

Originally posted by morticia No, not being defensive as I was not offended by your comments, but just overwhelmed by all the �anti-American� inferences you made (which btw were unnecessary � simply mentioning one or two examples would have surely given me the point). However, I never implied that �American males would never commit rape� (where do you get that from?)as I usually refer to "males" in general.

 

Rest assured that I am not anti-American, and the comments I made were not in reference to anti-American sentiment.

 

Originally posted by morticia This is a thread about Iranian women and how we got from there to Americans this and Americans that, I don�t know. In any event, I appreciate and thank you for the clarification.

 

I wanted to convey to you that this type of unacceptable behavior � the molestation and suppression of women � is found in every cultural. I just used your own culture as an example as you would be able to relate to it.

 

Originally posted by morticia That's find and dandy, but, again, you�re off topic. I simply asked you to please cease and desist with the anti-American comments. Save them for when I open the �American Woman� topic.

 

And I, myself, must request that you cease from referring to me as anti-American or labeling my comments as being anti-American. You are misinterpreting the message  - and that is that women suffer mental abuse from sexual or physical assault in all societies.

 

Originally posted by morticia This particular thread is about Iranian women and their struggle for basic human rights, which, although improved, is far from the equality women truly seek and desire� not only in Iran, but all over the world.

 

True. Unfortunately, progressive takes time and education. I fear that it will not be in our lifetimes that the female gender will achieve equality on the world stage as cultures and traditions based on male chauvinism are reluctant to accept change but I do feel that there is immense hope for Iranian women. Iran has one of the more educated societies in the Middle East and especially in the Islamic World. The current ruling regime in Iran, the IRI, if composed of religious conservatives � not wholly of Islamic fundamentalists as the Taliban were. There are moderate mullahs within Iran and inside the government (former President Mohammed Khatami is just one example) who realize the importance of education for women. As far as I am aware, it is also the only Islamic country that gives women the right to initiate divorce. This may not appear as much, but it is a victory for Iranian women � and shows the flexibility of the Islamist regime.

 

 

What you must understand is that the women of Iran are not suppressed in the same manner as the women of Taliban Afghanistan were. Iranian women have access to education, they can shop for make-up and lingerie in malls, go out for coffee, etc. The oppression that Iranian women suffer is comparable than the oppression suffered by their male counterparts in that all Muslim Iranians are forced to adhere to Islamic codes of conduct, the rights of free speech, free press, etc. are suppressed.

 

Originally posted by morticia Question: Do men feel threatened by women's movements? or are most men supportive of women's advancements?

I believe Mazier has already answered this, and I tend to agree with him. Men who are threatened by women's movements tend to be close-minded, undereducated, male chauvinists whereas the men who support women's movements tend to be open-minded, and come from liberal or moderate, educated backgrounds.

Originally posted by morticia Are men fearful that they will not be able to control the women's actions once they've establish some independence?

That is a concern amongst many men. They fear that modernization will bring with it other Western vices such as the sexual liberation of women, and promiscuity. These concerns may be unfounded but they are present amongst Iranian men.

 

Originally posted by morticia One forumer here posted that he was in favor of women having "some" rights, but that he feared some would become "sluts". Is that a general consensus of the Iranian man's thoughts towards women's rights?

I don't think it is a general consensus amongst Iranian women but it definitely is a concern for some but again, this is nothing new to Iran, this type of thinking is typical for male chauvinists.

 

Originally posted by morticia http://www.iranian.com/Opinion/2000/April/Women/

 

This is an OPINION piece. The editors have chosen to publish it in the opinion section, this should give you a clue as to how much credibility it deserves.

 

Originally posted by morticia http://www.iranian.com/History/2000/March/Women/index3.html

This also comes from Iranian.com, I am only vaguely familiar with the site and it appears credible to me.

 

Originally posted by morticia http://www.wfafi.org/only-democracy.htm

 

This article is totally unbelievable. Donna Hughes states that Islamic fundamentalism and the growing sex trade are the biggest threats to women's rights today. By using the terms Islamic fundamentalism and growing sex trade in the same sentence, she is intelligently trying to correlate the two. This is completely false and misleading on her part.

 

1. Islam and especially Muslim conservatives bar prostitution, premarital sex, and sexual slavery of women in Islamic societies. I would like to ask Ms. Hughes how she came to believe that the Islamists are responsible for the sex trade when they are religiously, ethically, and morally opposed to the sexual exploitation of women.  This paper, and Mr. Hughes are full of crap and hatemongering.

 

2. The sex trade is not growing; it has always been a mainstay of every culture and every society known to man. If there has been an upsurge in the trafficking of women, then it is because Eastern European women are being enslaved, transported, and sold into sexual slavery by Eastern European pimps.

 

Also, 90% of trafficked women trafficked from Eastern Europe and Latin America to the West, are fully aware that they will work as prostitutes. They travel to Western countries in order to sell themselves � they aren't forced into sexual slavery. Ms. Hughes needs to conduct more research.

 

Originally posted by morticia http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=1088

 

Completely biased site.

 

 

Originally posted by Mila I just wanted to congratulate you all for an excellent thread. Your debate is being carried out respectfully and intelligently - it's very, very nice to see. :)

 

I totally have a crush on Mila.

 

 

Edited by Master_Blaster - 11-Jun-2006 at 18:03

Edited by Maziar - 13-Jun-2006 at 08:54

Originally posted by Master Blaster What you must understand is that the women of Iran are not suppressed in the same manner as the women of Taliban Afghanistan were.

Edited by Maziar - 13-Jun-2006 at 13:50

   Great photos, Maziar! I couldn't help but chuckle at the guy using his cellphone in the middle of the melee! The old ways and the modern ways combined!    I guess the cellphone is a welcomed amenity everywhere! btw - are Iranian women permitted to use cellphones?