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Q: After Alexander the Great (Hellenistic Kingdoms)

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YusakuJon3 View Drop Down
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  Quote YusakuJon3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Q: After Alexander the Great (Hellenistic Kingdoms)
    Posted: 14-Nov-2004 at 07:13
With the upcoming release of Oliver Stone's movie about Alexander the Great, I've been reading up on whatever books cover his story.  Just about any one here has likely heard of or read about him by now, but what about the Hellenistic kingdoms which sprang up in his wake?

This much I've been able to gather, so far...

When Alexander died (June, 323 BC), he controlled all of the former territories of Achaemenid Persia from the Indus River to Egypt, and from the steppes between the Caspian Sea and the Hindu Kush to the coasts of Iran, in addition to remaining hegemon (captain-general) of all acknowledged Greek cities.  There were said to be plans to take the Arabians and establish control over their spice trade at the time of his death.  Rumor has it that he also cast his gaze towards the western Mediterranean, Carthage and the Romans (though this has even less evidence to support it than the Arabian expedition).

After Alexander, his territories fell into dispute amongst his close circle of friends.  Ptolemy established his dynasty in Egypt.  Seleucus took over the former Persian territories.  Antigonus's family consolidated power in Macedonia and Greece.  Perdiccas held on to the mountains of eastern Anatolia (modern Turkey) and Armenia.  Alexander's two acknowledged heirs (Hercules and Alexander the 4th) became little more than pawns in this deadly game, doomed to die at the hands of their captors.

From what I did read, all of the Hellenistic kingdoms fell into disrepair amidst the ongoing conflicts and, with the rise of Rome in the west, eventually were conquered.  Perdiccas's holdings were the first to go, leaving the other three to continue a long drawn-out, ding-dong contest over territories in the eastern Mediterranean.  The kingdoms of Epirus (home to Alexander's mother Olympias) and Antigonid Macedon were picked apart by the Romans.  Seleucus's dynasty lost its hold on central Iran to insurgent Parthians and was eventually conquered.  Ptolemaic Egypt fell last, consumed in the ongoing power struggles that the rising stars of certain Roman emperors and their part in the founding of a Roman empire.

Little is known about the achievements of the Hellenistic kingdoms after Alexander, perhaps because a combination of infighting and the acts of destruction by so many conquering armies may have destroyed what records were made in those days.   It seems to me that evidence of this rivalry could be found in references to the histories written by those who knew Alexander the Great (amongst which exist suggestions that the king was assassinated by one of his generals).  It is said that the arts indeed suffered as a result of continued stagnation of the Hellenistic culture, a condition later seen as the Roman empire dissolved into what we call the 'Dark Ages'.  With the destruction of the library in Alexandria, much of what documents which would've survived was likely lost to us.

This only leaves fragmentary documents and archaelogical evidence.  Mostly inscriptions on coins and monuments now distributed to museums across the world or still hidden beneath the ruins.  What I know is based only on encyclopdia entries and passages in general histories.

If they exist, are there more complete histories on the period available?  I think it would certainly shed light on how the regions involved came to be what they are today...

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  Quote Lannes Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Nov-2004 at 11:04

Originally posted by YusakuJon3

After Alexander, his territories fell into dispute amongst his close circle of friends.  Ptolemy established his dynasty in Egypt.  Seleucus took over the former Persian territories.  Antigonus's family consolidated power in Macedonia and Greece.  Perdiccas held on to the mountains of eastern Anatolia (modern Turkey) and Armenia.  Alexander's two acknowledged heirs (Hercules and Alexander the 4th) became little more than pawns in this deadly game, doomed to die at the hands of their captors.

Not quite.  The realms were originally as follows: Antipater and his successors remained in control of Macedonia and Greece(however, Cassander, Antipater's soc, soon asserted himself as Macedonian ruler), Lysimachus ruled Thrace, Antigonus ruled Phrygia and much of Asia Minor, Ptolemy ruled Egypt, and Seleucus ruled the Eastern possessions(Mesopotamia to India).

If they exist, are there more complete histories on the period available?

Hmm, well, several historinas wrote great works on the era.  Arrian wrote a book about the Diadochian wars, but it only survives in fragments.  Diodorus' Bibliotheke is probably the most complete work we have for the era, though some of his sources aren't the most reliable.  Most of Diodorus' info. on the Diadochian Wars comes from Diyllus(who wrote events until 297BC) and Hieronymus.  There was also a writer named Duris who wrote a 'history' of the era, but many say it is more a great display of writing than anything else, and is probably not the most truthful source for the era.

Of course, there are also biographies pertinent to the era in Plutarch's Lives. And there is the likely biased work of Timaeus.

τρέφεται δέ, ὤ Σώκρατης, ψυχὴ τίνι;
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  Quote YusakuJon3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2004 at 05:57
At least there's one decent source for the period.  Much like the story of Alexander himself, it's just a matter of piecing together a puzzle from many sources, some of whom aren't exactly truthful, then...

I didn't remember who got Macedon, though.  I knew that Antigonus (the One-Eyed?) held some territory for a time, and that one of the generals was ultimately defeated by his rivals (him?).  Ptolemy and Antipater, it seems, got the best of the deal.  And the Seleucid dynasty was only able to hold on for two generations or so before their portion of the empire started to wane.

From what I do recall, the Seleucids at first faced the expanding Mauryan empire from India.  After they were forced to cede the territories that Alexander had claimed along the Indus river to them, the conflicts with the rival successors became a more pressing matter, as they had all but abandoned their eastern territories.  Ultimately, this (and the losses suffered against Ptolemy and Antipater) contributed to the rise of the Parthians that ultimately caused their downfall.  Rome was merely there to sweep them out of Judaea and Samaria.

From what I know, the Parthians at least used Greek as their official language and were considered 'philo-Hellenic', a factor in their eventual overthrow by the Persian Sassanids.  However, they apparently weren't that literate a people, using written language only for their official transcriptions and correspondence (kind of like the old Persian empire in its use of Aramaic).  I know of no literature written by Parthians, and if there was any, it's possible that the Sassanids banned it as a foreign influence.

After I'm done with the current Alexander book, I'm going to be looking for some material relating to his successors.  This is proving to be quite fascinating, and a better use of free time at this time of the year...
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  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2004 at 13:10


Historians say that Parthian king Mithradates I defeated Seleucids and conquered not only Media but Babylonia and Seleucia but the statue of Hercules in Behistun shows that some other events happened in that period too.

At the back of this statue there are a bow, a full arrow box, a cone-shaped mace and an inscription composed of seven lines in old Greek handwriting engraved on a stone plate, I couldn't find the english translation of this inscription but according to this Persian site, it says in the month Panemos of 164 SE (between 153-148 BC, during the reign of Demetrius I Soter or Alexander Balas), Hercules by Hyakinthos son of Panthaochos (probably the seleucid governor of Media) helped and saved the Great commander Kloamen to hold this celebration!

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  Quote YusakuJon3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Nov-2004 at 20:45
That being said, the Parthians were in part an extension of Hellenistic influence in Iran.  Originally subjects of the deposed Achaemenid dynasty of Persia, they maintained much of their nomadic roots (as indicated by the horse archers who decimated Crassus's legions at Carrhae).  It seems, however, that they adopted Greek customs and language, at least on the surface.  Even so, they were still essentially Asian warrior-nomads and wasted no time in shaking off the Seleucid rulers and later supplanting them.

This leaves one more puzzle: the Graeco-Bactrian kingdom, where we even had one king convert to Bhuddism.  Just how much of its Hellenistic character was retained, I don't know, but it does receive attention in Indian history.  Other than that, it seems to have lost its contacts with the other Hellenes (I guess having first Parthia, then Sassanid Persia  in between -- not to mention some thousands of miles of desert and  Hun-infested steppe -- was partly to blame, otherwise Bhudda would've gotten a head-start on Jesus in the West).
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  Quote Romano Nero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2004 at 07:14

The Graeco-Indian kingdom of Bactria (originally an part of Seleucid holdings, later autonomus but direclty linke to the "highest authority" of the the Seleucid line) didn't outlive the other Greek kingdoms of the East. Actually it succumbed earlier than the Seleucids, but I am not completely sure of the dates, I'll have to look up a source.

It makes for a fascinating story about the mixture of "East" and "West", though.

On the other subjects of this - very interesting - discussion, truth is that the Parthian (Parnii originally) elite as the Pondian and the Thracian elite, was vastly hellenized, although Parni seem to originate from an iranic people. They spoke a form of Greek, and upheld the Greek customs, seing as Greeks in the 3rd century BC were something like Americans of today (or better: English of the 19th century, before the Americans came and settled in their place - in our case Americans=Romans). But that doesn't mean they abandoned any of their nomadic roots. They excelled at horsemanship and archery and kept their tribal organization - evident by the fragmentation of their "empire" and the fact that the seat of power was periodically shifting from settlement to settlement.

Later the Parthians became assimilated by the Persian population and their elite class merged with the Persian elite class that rose again after the Greek and Parthian rule.

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  Quote YusakuJon3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Nov-2004 at 19:17
My readings of the history of Iran in Encyclopdia Britannica views the history of Persia through two phases after the death of Alexander: the 'philo-Hellenic' and 'anti-Hellenic' periods.

The Parthians would be considered of the former due to their widespread influences of their Seleucid overlords.  Even after they overthrew them, they maintained these influences, which must have grated on their Persian subjects something awful.

Eventually, at some point early in the 3rd Century AD (CE), the anti-Hellenic period began as the Sassanids overthrew Parthia and set about re-establishing Persian customs and enforcing the Zoroaster religion in earnest (it was generally practiced under the Achaemenid Persians, but with considerable tolerance towards those subjects outside of Iran proper).  For the most part, Greece and Rome were seen as unwanted foreign influences by the new dynasty, who would continue to fight a long war against the Romans until their downfall at the hands of the Arabs in the middle of the 7th Century.
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Nov-2004 at 02:54

I suppose the Sassanids needed to create a sense of nationalistic, distinctively Persian culture amongst its subjects, in order to preserve itself from Roman (and later Greek-Byzantine) aggression.

It would be hard to fight against Greeks while at night you're reciting Greek poetry in symposiums (figure of speech )

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  Quote YusakuJon3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Nov-2004 at 18:23
At the same time, I think the Parthian empire was also starting to degrade after decades of conflict with Rome and the inevitable onset of dynastic power struggles that seem to be common amongst nations.  It sounds like the Sassanids (of the house of one 'Sassan', as depicted by Gibbon in his History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire) took advantage of one of the more intense episodes of internecine conflict to ultimarly overthrow the Parthian king.

Edited by YusakuJon3
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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2004 at 01:52
But were Parthians and Sassaninds different Iranian "tribes" (I know the Parthians were) or simply competing royal houses?
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Nov-2004 at 13:12
the house of Sassan was a Persian dynasty, while the Parthians were a Saka (Scythian) tribe.
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  Quote Romano Nero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 02:14

Originally posted by Temujin

the house of Sassan was a Persian dynasty, while the Parthians were a Saka (Scythian) tribe.

 

None of my readings supports this view. The Parnii are considered of Iranian origin (or Iranic-like) in all sources I've got at my disposal. You got any source stating they were Sacae or Scythic?

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 12:14
the Saka were themselvs Iranians, the Iranians include a wide group of peoples.
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  Quote Romano Nero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 15:02

I am not sure if the Sacae were Iranians, but if they were they didn't have anything to do with the Skythians - those were definitely not Iranians and we all know that well.

The Iranians are not that wide group of people... except if you are looking for the term "Aryans", but then you'd have to include many, many others under that umbrella

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 15:05
uhm sorry but do you actually know what you're talking about?
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  Quote Romano Nero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 15:12

I do not think that you are up to mastering the fine art of sarcasm yet, my friend.

You said that Parnii are Sacae-Skythic

I said that Parnii are Iranian people, not Skythes

You said that Sacae are Iranian and I replied that definitely the Skythes are not even close on having anything to do with Iranians.

So, who doesn't know what he's talking about?

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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Nov-2004 at 15:20

OK. Sakas are Indo-Iranian nomads that include major tribes of which the westernmost (living in the Ukrainian Steppe) tribe is commonly called Scythians (divided itself into smaller tribal untis, like royal scythians etc). the parthians are another major Saka tribe divided into seven sub-tribes or clans, which are the Parni, Suren, Karen, Dahae, Sohae, Mihran, and the Aspahapet. so actually parthian and Parnii is NOT the same, and you didn't even knew that Scythians were Iranians, so i think that YOU are GREATLY off track...

i recommend you to check out the iranian sub-forum of our site that will greatly enlight you i'm pretty sure of...

 

oh, and just to add, Persians and Medes are iranics as well, just like the Saka...



Edited by Temujin
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  Quote Romano Nero Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2004 at 01:53

Are many people on this board excessively rude and arrogant as you? Or is it just that you are young and immature and that's the only way you know to express your opinion on something?

Even if you are right on the topic (which I seriously doubt) your rudeness is not really appreciated.

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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2004 at 02:54

And I suggest to both of you to smoke the peace-pipe and cut this line of confrontation. Preferably as of now!

If anyone feels like continuing, he can do it via PM!

I think that Temujin was a bit harsh on you but I also think that he was right to mention that Scythes were an Iranian tribe.

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  Quote YusakuJon3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Nov-2004 at 05:35
For one, I'm curous about just how the various peoples of the Asian steppe and Iranian plateau actually related to one another.  Most of my reading in history has been focused on the Greek and Roman civilizations and how they influenced European culture, so their POV hasn't exactly been as objective on this subject as modern culture has been.  More recent efforts in the field at this point are more or less restricted because of ongoing conflicts in the region.

In the case of the Scythians, I reiterate the question as to whether or not they evolved into another nation or were absorbed by those with whom they had contact.  A passage in Gibbon's book mentions the eastern Romans (of Byzantium) sending an expedition to 'Scythia' during the 4th Century AD, for instance.  Perhaps there was still a recognizable Scythian culture at that point.
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