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Honour Killings - the whats, hows and whys...
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    Posted: 15-Jun-2006 at 21:39

MB - We are far apart here.

By all standards - no one has the right to take another persons life. To do so IS murder.
I can, when I stretch my imagination, understand your concept of honour - and dont you for a second think that westeners dont have their concept of honour.
We just dont consider it very honourable to chase down women and shoot them, and that is what this thread is about.....

How can anyone protect their (or family) honour, by comitting one of the worst crimes anyone can think of - and to their own children?

(I'm sorry - I need to go to bed - see ya'll tomorrow)

 
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Posts: 176 		  Quote Master_Blaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2006 at 21:45
Originally posted by Northman

MB - We are far apart here.

By all standards - no one has the right to take another persons life. To do so IS murder.
I can, when I stretch my imagination, understand your concept of honour - and dont you for a second think that westeners dont have their concept of honour.
We just dont consider it very honourable to chase down women and shoot them, and that is what this thread is about.....

How can anyone protect their (or family) honour, by comitting one of the worst crimes anyone can think of - and to their own children?

(I'm sorry - I need to go to bed - see ya'll tomorrow)

 
Northman,
 
My disagreement with you isn't based on whether or not the concept of "honor killings" should be acceptable in any societies. I don't agree with it myself but I just tend to become frustrated when outsiders discuss it in a fashion which seems to be demeaning towards my culture.
 
For example, if Mila or one of the other Bosniac/Turks on this forum were to say, "Honor killings this and honor killings that ...."
 
but when someone from outside the culture were to say the same exact thing, then it appears to me as if they are implying something more sinister like, "Oh! Look at them heathens and how they abuse their womenfolk."
 
 
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demeaning? murder is murder, and has to be punished. Does it say anywhere in Islamic literature to kill women because they are deemed to be "honor-less"? This is just ridiculous. The concepty of honor is totally up to the person.

Lets take an extreme hypothetical example. Suppose in France men having beards are honor-less (lets say because of that oral thing ArmenianSurvival mentioned in one of the threads LOL). Can others kill him? Wouldn't that just be ridiculous??to an insider, outsider...a martian?

Now seriously, can women honor kill their husbands if they have an affair with another woman? (it should work both ways...)

 
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In Albania, women can. :D
[IMG]http://img272.imageshack.us/img272/9259/1xw2.jpg">
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Originally posted by mamikon

demeaning? murder is murder, and has to be punished. Does it say anywhere in Islamic literature to kill women because they are deemed to be "honor-less"? This is just ridiculous. The concepty of honor is totally up to the person.

Lets take an extreme hypothetical example. Suppose in France men having beards are honor-less (lets say because of that oral thing ArmenianSurvival mentioned in one of the threads LOL). Can others kill him? Wouldn't that just be ridiculous??to an insider, outsider...a martian?

Now seriously, can women honor kill their husbands if they have an affair with another woman? (it should work both ways...)

 
Would you also agree that the American invasion of Iraq and the subsequent killings of Iraqi civilians - women, children, unarmed men, and the elderly - is also murder?
 
Would you also agree that the deaths of 35,000 (conservative estimate) to over 100,000 (liberal estimate) Iraqis by the American military machine is also murder?Ouch
 
As far as your opinion about honor killings and the concept of honor in Eastern societies is concerned:
 
For your information, the cases of women being killed for engaging in premarital or extramarital sexual relations in Eastern and Islamic societies is less common than in Western societies but it does still take place and only in very rare cases does it lead to the murder of the woman. If honor killings were as common as the Western media has brainwashed you to believe then there wouldn't be a need for the Western press to showcase ONE every few years. Just because the concept of honor killing exists in these cultures doesn't imply that the practice is commonplace.
 
1.5 billion Muslims and 1.1. billion Indians plus wherever else honor killings take place - that would account for over 2.6 billion people at the least, and of these, at least one-half would be female, correct?? Now, I can probably count on my fingers how many honor killings have taken place amongst these 2.5 billion people - tell me, is that common?? Didn't think so.Dead
 


Edited by Master_Blaster - 15-Jun-2006 at 22:49
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Posts: 2979 		  Quote azimuth Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2006 at 23:15

its cultural thing, and its old practice, as for the middle eastern cultures the reputation of the family is very very important, a family of good reputation earns the society's respect and appreciation.

one member of the family with bad reputation would affect all the family's reputation.
 
society's respect and appreciation would lead to protection and higher degree in the society.
 
that was mostly the cultures of the past.
 
a woman sleeping around with whoever she wishes to sleep with for money or pleasure or both is generally considered insincere and not trust worthy and has no values or principles and also usually not a good mother which leads not good society ( that in many cultures Women are the basic elements for a society to be good or bad based on how they rise and educate their children).
 
its also the same with men too honoring or dishonouring the family, but since women being good or bad affect the society more, it made the focus on women much more than men.
 
---
 
 
Islamic religion wise
 
these part of the culture i described above were huge part of the culture Before Islam.
 
Islamic law recognised the effect of adultery of both men and women as equal to the society and gave the same punishment for both men and women who commit adultery
 
also to apply any punishment as per the law there must be proofs and condition that must meet for the rule to be applied, rumors are not considered a proof of adultery, one of the conditions for the punishment of adultery is to have 5 eyewitnesses.
 
what is actually happening these days,
 
 the punishment for adultery is ignored (most countries), as far as i know the harshest punishment for adultery would be some lashes on the back and few days in prison, but mostly people can get away from this by denying adultery and there are not enough witnesses so usually there is no punishment to less than a week in prison. ( some use medical checks to prove such thing happened or not)
 
as for the accidents that occur here and there about "honour killings", these are the remains of the ancient cultures which stuck with people, this is barbaric and should not be accepted and they are not Islamic.
 
a person who kills another for "honour" should be judged and punished by law as any murder case.
 
each country has its rules and regulation and anyone living in those countries MUST respect the law.
 
 
 
 
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Posts: 598 		  Quote Arbr Z Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Jun-2006 at 23:29
Originally posted by Mila

In Albania, women can. :D
 
oh yes, in albania everybody can kill everyoneErmm please...
Prej heshtjes...!
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@ Master Blaster

Did I say that honor killings are prevalent in some groups. On the contrary I said, that to my knowledge according to Islamic law, killing one's spouse is forbidden (i may be wrong, does anyone know the laws well?)

why is it that when anything "bad" comes up on the middle east, everyone jsut blames western media and its brainwashing qualities. I am perfectly fit to decide which news are to brainwash and which are, well, news. When did I say they were common. I said that the perpetrator must be punished, there is no excuse for murder.

1.5 billion Muslims and 1.1. billion Indians plus wherever else honor killings take place - that would account for over 2.6 billion people at the least, and of these, at least one-half would be female, correct?? Now, I can probably count on my fingers how many honor killings have taken place amongst these 2.5 billion people - tell me, is that common?? Didn't think so

ok, when did I pinpoint on any group of people? and did I say that honor killing is widespread among those groups? I most definitely did not...
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Originally posted by mamikon

demeaning? murder is murder, and has to be punished. Does it say anywhere in Islamic literature to kill women because they are deemed to be "honor-less"? This is just ridiculous. The concepty of honor is totally up to the person.


You are totally correct. The so-called honor killings should be punished not just as any other crime but even more severely as are hate crimes in the USA. This desease must be uprooted from the societies that it continues to infect.

What "honor" is there for a father, for a brother, for a son, for a husband to kill his daughter, sister, mother or wife? What is the meaning of a family, if those that you consider closest and trust most can kill you for violating their "honor"? In my eyes anybody who comitts such a crime is the most honorless, disgusting and lowest person, and deserve to rot in hell.


Now seriously, can women honor kill their husbands if they have an affair with another woman? (it should work both ways...)


A very good question ... I think the reason why women are targeted is because their "honor" can be checked more easily. In many countries where this "honor" concept is still practiced, inlcuding SouthEastern Turkey, there are special places where you can have your daughters examined.

Men's honor is hardly ever questioned. Even rapists escape justice, and it
is usually their victims that have to worry about the honor. Women even have to beg their rapists to marry them to protect their "honor".

It is totally abhorrant.

And I do not think this has to do anything with Islam - it is some nomadic preislamic thing.


I come from a Muslim background, and never for a second would I think that my grandparent or parents would kill anybody for "violating" the family honor. Of course they would consider it a taboo to sleep with somebody before marriage, but I do not think the punishment would be death.


Edited by bg_turk - 16-Jun-2006 at 10:12
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Originally posted by Master_Blaster

 
Northman,
 
My disagreement with you isn't based on whether or not the concept of "honor killings" should be acceptable in any societies. I don't agree with it myself but I just tend to become frustrated when outsiders discuss it in a fashion which seems to be demeaning towards my culture.
 
For example, if Mila or one of the other Bosniac/Turks on this forum were to say, "Honor killings this and honor killings that ...."
 
but when someone from outside the culture were to say the same exact thing, then it appears to me as if they are implying something more sinister like, "Oh! Look at them heathens and how they abuse their womenfolk."
 
Please direct me to any demeaning, defaming or offensive posts I have made towards any religion or etnic group - be it in this thread or throughout AE, and I will make apology for each and everyone of them.
 
Just for the sake of it - will you do the same? Wink
 


Edited by Northman - 16-Jun-2006 at 10:11
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Originally posted by Master_Blaster

For your information, the cases of women being killed for engaging in premarital or extramarital sexual relations in Eastern and Islamic societies is less common than in Western societies but it does still take place and only in very rare cases does it lead to the murder of the woman. If honor killings were as common as the Western media has brainwashed you to believe then there wouldn't be a need for the Western press to showcase ONE every few years. Just because the concept of honor killing exists in these cultures doesn't imply that the practice is commonplace.
 
1.5 billion Muslims and 1.1. billion Indians plus wherever else honor killings take place - that would account for over 2.6 billion people at the least, and of these, at least one-half would be female, correct?? Now, I can probably count on my fingers how many honor killings have taken place amongst these 2.5 billion people - tell me, is that common?? Didn't think so.Dead
 
Well - well....  I dont know who is brainwashed, but you seems to be in denial of simple facts.
If you start counting on your fingers, I'm sure you'll have to take your socks off to make a total just for one week.
UN have reports on 5000 of these killings every year - that is 100 pr. week, so you need the help of 4 buddies to keep track on a week.
 
  • Fadime Sahindal
  • Asrin Masifi
  • Ghazala Abbas
  • Anooshe Shamsi
  • Ghazala Khan

The names above are some of the women who have died in honour killings in the past four years in Scandinavia alone.

However, I didnt start this thread to discuss numbers - but to become wiser.
In my reading up upon the issue, I was shocked to learn that there still are countries who by law, dont prosecute these crimes - in 2006?
 
I'm also aware that this has happened/happens all over the world - so if there are examples from other cultures as well, it would be important to get the whole picture.
 
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Originally posted by Northman


... I was shocked to learn that there still are countries who by law,dont prosecute these crimes - in 2006?


That's right, Northman. I too was shocked when I learned that these "honour" killings still occur and go unpunished. That shows what little regard still exists for women in some countries. Those countries still treat women as "possessions" that can be bought, sold, traded, used, abused, and even killed when they bring what they consider "dishonor" to the families.
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" I was shocked to learn that there still are countries who by law, dont prosecute these crimes - in 2006?"

which countries?
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Originally posted by morticia


 I too was shocked when I learned that these "honour" killings still occur and go unpunished. That shows what little regard still exists for women in some countries. Those countries still treat women as "possessions" that can be bought, sold, traded, used, abused, and even killed when they bring what they consider "dishonor" to the families.


If it is going to be of any comfort, Turkey is taking the problem very serious now and there are efforts to stem honor killings.
The battle is fought on two fronts

  • education
  • tougher legislation
Islamic clerics are spreading the message that Honor killings are wrong
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3523123.stm

And recently, admittedly under EU pressure, tougher laws on honor killings have been imposed. Many cases of honor killings in the past used to be scrapped as cases of "suicide", but this is no longer the case.

My cousins live in Turkey, and things are getting much better for women there now. But still there are dangers whenever conservative Islamic governments come to power.

There used to be many outrageous proposal such as "virginity tests" for girs in schools:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1457919.stm

More info on Turkish women rights:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3681494.stm

We are still behind, but we are getting better.



Edited by bg_turk - 16-Jun-2006 at 13:01
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Originally posted by mamikon

" I was shocked to learn that there still are countries who by law, dont prosecute these crimes - in 2006?"

which countries?
 
I have read many sites on this - but this page in Wiki covers the subject I think...
 
If you like, you can scroll down to the section: "Honor killing in national legal codes".
 
 
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bg_turk

Nice post - thank you for all the info. Its good to know progress is/will be made.

Lets hope more countries will follow the example.


Edited by Northman - 16-Jun-2006 at 13:44
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its an barbarian act mostly cause of bad education. some mans do such things because they think the woman is their proporety like their car or home.
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Argentina?   Brazil?    Haiti!!!!? Are these people nuts?
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[quote=bg_turk]There used to be many outrageous proposal such as "virginity tests" for girs in schools:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/1457919.stm [/quot]
 
This is disgusting, what they think who they are to want to control the below the waistline of the people? what's that to them? I am very glad to hear that human right activists have a big influence in Turkey, and i am very sure turkish women won't put up with such barbaric methodes.
Virginity is personal, and it concerns only the woman and nobody else.
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Originally posted by Maziar

This is disgusting, what they think who they are to want to control the below the waistline of the people? what's that to them? I am very glad to hear that human right activists have a big influence in Turkey, and i am very sure turkish women won't put up with such barbaric methodes.
Virginity is personal, and it concerns only the woman and nobody else.


I know, I was quite shocked myself when my cousins told me about it. It is totally unacceptable.

Whenever governments stop worrying about the economy, and start meddling with what people do in their bedrooms, that means there is certainly something very very wrong with the people in that government.
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