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Honour Killings - the whats, hows and whys...

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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Honour Killings - the whats, hows and whys...
    Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 20:41
The latest victim of honor killing is 16 year old Meryem, a girl that was in her 7th month of pregnancy. 

Turkish daily Radikal reports
http://www.radikal.com.tr/haber.php?haberno=192173


Both Meryem and her baby died.

The honor crime was comitted around 5:00  am yesterday in Sanliurfa (conservative southeast). Her 22 year old brother was doing his millitary service in Istanbul and from time to time when he returned home he noticed his sisters belly was growing. The previous night he shut his sister within a room and started questioning her. To his question if he was pregagnat, Meryem replied that she had gained weight and started crying. The brother asked the family, and his suspicions were confirmed. He left the house very angry.

All night he was out wondering around the streets. Returned home in the morning. He decided that the situation was against the honor traditions, took a gun and woke his sleeping sister. He asked "Who left you pregnant?". She started crying. He shot her first in the stomach then in the head. Meryem, died in her bed, together with the baby in her stomach.

The family awoke to the gunshots. The polic was called. The brother was found with the gun in his hand on the street. He admitted to his crime by saying: "Evry time I came back Meryem's belly was growing. Whenever I inquired she said she was gaining weight. She never replied to the questions we asked, she was crying all the time. As she started to cry, I realized she was pregnant. I went out of home, wondered on the streets. But because she acted against our traditions i could not accept this under any condition. I got the gun from home, woke her up and shot her."

All of the family was arrested. The son and the father are both the tried for murder, the mother was released on bail.

I hope the Turkish Justice system will treat this murder in the severest possible way. When will these people realize that there is no honor in killing defenseless girls and their babies, there is only shame. Simply punishing them is not enough, I think they should be cursed into a shameful existence for what they did.

They must feel the wrath of the entire Turkish nation on their shoulders!Angry Then we will see if anybody will dare comit such a crime again ... but as usual the media remains mysteriously silent. Except Radikal, no major newspaper has bothered to report the killing on their main site not Sabah, not Hurriyiet, not Milliyet - shame on them!



Edited by bg_turk - 06-Jul-2006 at 20:59
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 15:51
Indeed - another sad example, bg turk...
 
Please keep us posted if there are any news on this...
 


Edited by Northman - 07-Jul-2006 at 15:53
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 17:32
Appologies to Milliyet Newspaper, they did report it:
 
 
The article gives virtually the same info.
 
Most (actually all as far as I read) of the comments to the article are those of unequivocal condemnation. A few interesting views:
 
nextri
I congratulate Milliyet. For years those crimes have been experienced in every corner of Turkey. But so far they received very little coverage. I thank Milliyet for bringing these to the attention of the public.
 
Muhendis Bey
Curses on your honor. A human life cannot be that cheap. The state must take measures, punishments must become stricter, and our people must be educated.  It is high time that our concept of honor is changed. This beautiful country cannot be a toy in the hands of those ignorant people.
 
 
 


Edited by bg_turk - 07-Jul-2006 at 17:34
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jul-2006 at 23:40
The old honour killing debate....might as well butt in..
 
I guess i'm talking to Northman here, though if it's already been mentioned then excuse it.
 
Originally posted by Northman

No Dane can begin to understand why or how such crimes can be comitted by close family and friends - way beyond comprehension.
 
Honour killings or  "crimes of honour" are similar to "crimes of passion" that occur in the West in my opinion - they're not exactly similar, some differences do exist, but assuming you do understand what drives people to do passion killings, then I wonder if you will agree that crimes of honour and crimes of passion are just the same thing but with a different name tag?
 
In a crime of passion, say a husband killing a wife, the drive behind it is the feeling of disloyalty, as well as the "male honour" in some cases that leads to a crime of passion. Dont know if you agree with this?
 
The Director of HRW says "In countries where Islam is practiced, they're called honor killings, but dowry deaths and so-called crimes of passion have a similar dynamic in that the women are killed by male family members and the crimes are perceived as excusable or understandable."
 
I guess my question I'm asking is that you can understand the crime of passion, but cannot the same for the crime of honour..dont you think that the crime of passion has the same "honour" drive (in this case of male honour) as the honour killing (family honour).
 
Family honour was of course pretty important to people traditionally, but I think that the psychology behind honour killings is much the same as the flipping which occurs in a crime of passion. It's just that there's slightly different cultural dynamics which get a family involved perhaps, when brothers and sisters get in on the act? Though, if you look at the majority of honour killings they are committed by husbands on wives, like crimes of passion.
 
What do you think? (also it should be pointed out it's pretty rare & condemned)


Edited by TeldeInduz - 09-Jul-2006 at 23:45
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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2006 at 05:50
Crimes of passion involve conditions we can relate to. I can't imagine ever feeling the necessary emotions to kill a person based on how they dressed, who they were dating, or whether or not they had sex before marriage. I can, however, imagine having the necessary emotions to kill a person if they were unfaithful.

So is being unfaithful worse than the other things... in my mind, yes. But that's cultural. So maybe it's the same.

But honor killings are often carefully planned. There have been examples where families spent years wooing a female relative who fled to the West, only to kill her their first opportunity when she returned. There's a different dynamic there that, as far as I can tell, is more common with honor killings than with passion crimes.
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2006 at 13:57
Originally posted by Mila

Crimes of passion involve conditions we can relate to. I can't imagine ever feeling the necessary emotions to kill a person based on how they dressed, who they were dating, or whether or not they had sex before marriage. I can, however, imagine having the necessary emotions to kill a person if they were unfaithful.

So is being unfaithful worse than the other things... in my mind, yes. But that's cultural. So maybe it's the same.

But honor killings are often carefully planned. There have been examples where families spent years wooing a female relative who fled to the West, only to kill her their first opportunity when she returned. There's a different dynamic there that, as far as I can tell, is more common with honor killings than with passion crimes.
 
Hi Mila, basically, the courts would define a crime of passion as one that is not pre meditated, I think that when a husband or wife is unfaithful it can either turn into a crime of passion (heat of the moment), or it could turn ino pre meditated spousal murder murder (well planned). I guess honour killings can also be heat of the moment or well planned too. The only difference I can really see is that family members get involved in the honour killings version, and I think this comes from irrational very rare instances of over-conservative family honour against the individual honour of crimes of passion/pre-meditated spousal murder.
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2006 at 17:24
TeldeInguz, gracias for your input.

When you mentioned the "crimes of passion" concept, I thought of the recent murder Corrine Rey-Bellet by her husband. This "crime of passion" took place in Switzerland.  BBC reports:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4961784.stm


Corrine was three monts pregnant at the time of the murder.


Swiss skier Corinne Rey-Bellet, who won silver in the 2003 World Championships, has been shot dead at her parents' chalet along with her brother Alain.

Their mother was seriously injured in Sunday's attack in the Swiss resort of Les Crosets but the skier's two-year-old son survived unhurt.

Police said a gunman had already fled by the time they arrived.

They have named Rey-Bellet's husband, Gerold Stadler, whose car was found nearby, as the main suspect.



Corrine's murder in Switzerland and Meryem's murder  in Turkey seem to be very similar, and it just goes on to illustrate that "honor crimes" and the "crimes of passion" are just different manifestations of the same problem.



Edited by bg_turk - 10-Jul-2006 at 17:45
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2006 at 17:33
And somewhat surprisingly to those that assume moral superiority over the East, such crimes of passion are not that rare in the West. Again BBC reports about Switzerland:



The murder last week of one of Switzerland's most famous skiers has forced the Swiss to look long and hard at a crime that is worryingly common in their society.
...

"There is a profile for a man who commits a crime like this," says Philip Jaffe, professor of psychology at Geneva University.

"He tends to be very ambitious, but isolated, very contained, and he can't cope with loss. So if his wife threatens to leave him, his response is violence."

Deceptively normal

Another characteristic is normality, or orderliness, as the Swiss often call it.

All the recent cases, including that of Rey-Bellet and Stadler, involved families who presented an outward appearance of normal, calm, orderly family life.

"Every time we get a case like this, you can go and ask the neighbours, and they all say the same thing," says Martin Boess, head of Switzerland's crime prevention unit.

"It was a normal family, he was going to work, the kids were going to school, they were quiet but friendly, no one suspected a thing," Mr Boess says.

Trying to make sense of senseless killings, he hazards a guess that perhaps the very normality - or the dreadful stress of keeping up the appearance of normality - can trigger the violence.

"Here in Switzerland we are brought up to expect everything to go according to plan," he explains.

"Just like our trains run on time, we've come to expect our lives to run to plan, and when they don't, we go wild."

Military menace

But this does not explain why Switzerland, so often thought of as a peaceful country, should have so many family killings.
A recent study indicated that 58% of all murders in Switzerland were within the family. In the Netherlands, also a peaceful, prosperous Western European country, the figure is 29%.

Mr Boess blames the Swiss army's policy of requiring Swiss men, who all have to do military service, to keep their guns and ammunition at home in case of an emergency call-up.

What that means is that nearly all Swiss men have a Sturmgewehr - an assault rifle - stored somewhere in their homes.

Those who make it to officer level have an automatic pistol too, and when men leave the army, they are allowed to keep their guns. No licence is required.

"If things go wrong, he can go upstairs, get the gun, and shoot," says Mr Boess.

In most of Switzerland's "family dramas", an army gun is used. Stadler shot his famous wife with his officer's pistol.

"It's very common to hear women tell how their husbands remind them they have a gun in moments of tension," says Brigitte Schnegg, professor of gender politics at Berne University.

"They'll say: 'If you don't do what I want, don't forget I've got my gun upstairs.'"

Male honour'

For Ms Schnegg, the prevalence of guns together with the slow pace of equality in Switzerland, where women did not get the right to vote until 1971 [in Turkey women could vote already in 1930!], have formed a lethal combination.

"We have a country in which, until recently, men were legally classed as the head of the household. They were the sole providers, the ones in charge and in control," she explains.

"I think these killings are the 'honour killings' of Switzerland," she says. "Family problems are seen as a defeat for the man, it all has to do with male honour."

Psychologist Philip Jaffe agrees with this interpretation, but believes it will take years for male attitudes to change.

In the meantime, he has a suggestion for reducing the violence, but it means challenging the much-loved tradition of keeping the guns at home.

"I think the guns should not be kept at home," he says.

"It's absolutely absurd when you think about it. For them to be available, in the cupboard or whatever, it creates the opportunity to use a lethal weapon in the heat of the moment, and that's very scary for many families. "

The Swiss gun lobby is strong, and until now all attempts at gun control have been defeated.

But when Corinne Rey-Bellet and her brother were buried side-by-side in their home town, on the day that should have been Alain's wedding day, even the most enthusiastic gun owners began to waver.

For the first time, opinion polls show a majority of Swiss want the guns out of their homes, and stored in a safer place.

The days when every Swiss man had a weapon, in the garage next to the kids' bikes or the lawnmower, may be numbered.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4755143.stm

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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 10-Jul-2006 at 21:49
Hi bg_turk, a sad case, but one I think which fits the bill of male/female honour being the driving force behind this crime of passion, much like the family honour drive behind the honour killings.
 
I agree with the psychologist's analysis in your article, which is a good find..Clap 
 
"I think these killings are the 'honour killings' of Switzerland," she says. "Family problems are seen as a defeat for the man, it all has to do with male honour."

Psychologist Philip Jaffe agrees with this interpretation, but believes it will take years for male attitudes to change."

Though I would not just limit this concept to Switzerland..
 
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 05:04
Originally posted by TeldeInduz

The old honour killing debate....might as well butt in..
 
I guess i'm talking to Northman here, though if it's already been mentioned then excuse it.
 
Originally posted by Northman

No Dane can begin to understand why or how such crimes can be comitted by close family and friends - way beyond comprehension.
 
Honour killings or  "crimes of honour" are similar to "crimes of passion" that occur in the West in my opinion - they're not exactly similar, some differences do exist, but assuming you do understand what drives people to do passion killings, then I wonder if you will agree that crimes of honour and crimes of passion are just the same thing but with a different name tag?
 
In a crime of passion, say a husband killing a wife, the drive behind it is the feeling of disloyalty, as well as the "male honour" in some cases that leads to a crime of passion. Dont know if you agree with this?
 
The Director of HRW says "In countries where Islam is practiced, they're called honor killings, but dowry deaths and so-called crimes of passion have a similar dynamic in that the women are killed by male family members and the crimes are perceived as excusable or understandable."
 
I guess my question I'm asking is that you can understand the crime of passion, but cannot the same for the crime of honour..dont you think that the crime of passion has the same "honour" drive (in this case of male honour) as the honour killing (family honour).
 
Family honour was of course pretty important to people traditionally, but I think that the psychology behind honour killings is much the same as the flipping which occurs in a crime of passion. It's just that there's slightly different cultural dynamics which get a family involved perhaps, when brothers and sisters get in on the act? Though, if you look at the majority of honour killings they are committed by husbands on wives, like crimes of passion.
 
What do you think? (also it should be pointed out it's pretty rare & condemned)
 
Except from the fact, that deep feelings are involved in both cases, I think there is a distinct difference between the two.
 
In my opinion, "Crime of passion" is comitted in the heat of the moment - finding your partner in bed with a lover - or as result to a coincidental heated argument, not intentionally leading to any crime.
If the crime is comitted after some time of such events, ie. some hours or the next day - it cannot be considered a "Crime of Passion".
 
Sometimes we hear about a man killing his partner or whole family for various reasons - and in most cases he would take his own life as well.
These cases are not Crimes of Passion, nor Honor Killings.
For sure - honor (or rather shame) can be one of the reasons, but not in the same context as "Honor Killings" discussed here.
 
When a husband kills his wife, its not to restore his or the family honor. Mostly its caused in by jealousy, - or the simple idea of - if I cant have her - nobody can.

The cases where a whole family is killed including the man himself, the dynamics could seem similar to Honor Killings, but there is a significant difference.
The reason may be social detour, bankruptsy or whatever - but these killings are never to save his or the family honor because of what another family member has done, but to avoid exposure of shame to the whole family of what he has done - or failed doing.
Thats why he most likely will kill himself as well.
 
Honor Killings are crimes deliberately planned, leading to the execution of one person - and everyone is expected to walk free with honor restored. That is quite another story.  
 
Thanks to all the great posters in this thread, I think everyone have had a better chance to understand the reasons behind Honor Killings - and/or to form or express their own opinion about the issue.
At least - it gave me more insight and understanding, but still I found no reasons not to condemn it in any way.
 
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 06:00
Originally posted by Northman

Except from the fact, that deep feelings are involved in both cases, I think there is a distinct difference between the two.
 
In my opinion, "Crime of passion" is comitted in the heat of the moment - finding your partner in bed with a lover - or as result to a coincidental heated argument, not intentionally leading to any crime.
If the crime is comitted after some time of such events, ie. some hours or the next day - it cannot be considered a "Crime of Passion".
 
Read my second post on this thread. There are instances when men or women will commit crimes of passion or "heat of the moment" crimes, and some cases will be of pre meditated spousal murder. The same happens in honour killings, some are heat of the moment, and some are pre meditated. I think that honour is violated in both instances.
 
 
Sometimes we hear about a man killing his partner or whole family for various reasons - and in most cases he would take his own life as well.
These cases are not Crimes of Passion, nor Honor Killings.
For sure - honor (or rather shame) can be one of the reasons, but not in the same context as "Honor Killings" discussed here.
 
If a man kills his partner for having an affair, how is this not a crime of passion? (or pre-meditated spousal homicide, if this is what occurs)
 
When a husband kills his wife, its not to restore his or the family honor. Mostly its caused in by jealousy, - or the simple idea of - if I cant have her - nobody can.
 
I disagree..A husband can kill a wife for many reasons. One reason might be jealousy, another might be a feeling of her acting disloyally after all the hard work he (or she) has put into the relationship. There can be many reasons. Certainly disloyalty can be classed as an individual's honour. Are you suggesting that men cannot feel betrayed if a partner has an affair?

The cases where a whole family is killed including the man himself, the dynamics could seem similar to Honor Killings, but there is a significant difference.
The reason may be social detour, bankruptsy or whatever - but these killings are never to save his or the family honor because of what another family member has done, but to avoid exposure of shame to the whole family of what he has done - or failed doing.
Thats why he most likely will kill himself as well.
 
Read above. I said you will find crimes of passion and the premeditated spousal murders are more of individual man's honour rather than the Eastern "honour killing" which is related to family honour - the reason why brothers and sisters get involved perhaps. Both have the same dynamic, one of preserving either the individual's honour, or of preserving the family's honour.
 
In the instant you point out of "what he has done", if you look at some of the pre-meditated spousal abuse cases, you will find some men who have had affairs and made their mistress/lover pregnant, and in order to stop this from reaching their wives, they've opted to kill the lover and the child. A case in point is Laci Peterson, though it's pretty common. This is surely a case of a man preserving his honour in front of his wife, so she doesnt leave him. If she finds out he was dishonourable or unfaithful to her, then she would leave him.
 
Honor Killings are crimes deliberately planned, leading to the execution of one person - and everyone is expected to walk free with honor restored. That is quite another story.  
 
Honour killings can be deliberately planned, as can spousal murder.
 
Noone is expected to walk free..It's a rare occurrence and carried out by irrational, perhaps insecure people. Every murderer hopes to get away with it.
 
  
Thanks to all the great posters in this thread, I think everyone have had a better chance to understand the reasons behind Honor Killings - and/or to form or express their own opinion about the issue.
At least - it gave me more insight and understanding, but still I found no reasons not to condemn it in any way.
 
I think you'll find almost every sane person on the planet finds it abhorrent. 


Edited by TeldeInduz - 11-Jul-2006 at 06:04
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 10:57
Tele Indus.... You seem determined to equate all domestic murders between spouses to Honor Killings or visa versa - and that is your free choice.
But I guess quite a few in here clearly can see a difference.
 
Originally posted by Northman

Except from the fact, that deep feelings are involved in both cases, I think there is a distinct difference between the two.
 
In my opinion, "Crime of passion" is comitted in the heat of the moment - finding your partner in bed with a lover - or as result to a coincidental heated argument, not intentionally leading to any crime.
If the crime is comitted after some time of such events, ie. some hours or the next day - it cannot be considered a "Crime of Passion".
 
Read my second post on this thread. There are instances when men or women will commit crimes of passion or "heat of the moment" crimes, and some cases will be of pre meditated spousal murder. The same happens in honour killings, some are heat of the moment, and some are pre meditated. I think that honour is violated in both instances.
 
 
Sometimes we hear about a man killing his partner or whole family for various reasons - and in most cases he would take his own life as well.
These cases are not Crimes of Passion, nor Honor Killings.
For sure - honor (or rather shame) can be one of the reasons, but not in the same context as "Honor Killings" discussed here.
 
If a man kills his partner for having an affair, how is this not a crime of passion? (or pre-meditated spousal homicide, if this is what occurs)

 
It is  - but only if comitted instantly - not after planning, and thats what I'm talking about (heat of the moment cant be 5 days later) 
 
When a husband kills his wife, its not to restore his or the family honor. Mostly its caused in by jealousy, - or the simple idea of - if I cant have her - nobody can.
 
I disagree..A husband can kill a wife for many reasons. One reason might be jealousy, another might be a feeling of her acting disloyally after all the hard work he (or she) has put into the relationship. There can be many reasons. Certainly disloyalty can be classed as an individual's honour. Are you suggesting that men cannot feel betrayed if a partner has an affair?

 
First - I said mostly - not exclusively (I underlined that to you)
Second - of course men can feel betrayed, so can women.
But only men is allowed a personal honor?....  Sorry I dont think so.

I think all this talk of honor derives from the concept that men think they own the family and all the members in it. Most modern western families are beyond this conception and accept women and children as equal human beings with equal rights.

Let me try to explain how I would react if my dear beloved spouse "betrayed" me. 
I would ask myself - what is she missing here with me, what have I done wrong, or missed doing - why is it necessary for her to look elsewhere?
I would ask her, and I would try to correct my wrongs.
If that isnt enough, I must realize that her love has vanished - and I must let her go if that is what she wants.
I know she will grant me the same respect in the reversed case.
Equality - free people in a free world. 

The cases where a whole family is killed including the man himself, the dynamics could seem similar to Honor Killings, but there is a significant difference.
The reason may be social detour, bankruptsy or whatever - but these killings are never to save his or the family honor because of what another family member has done, but to avoid exposure of shame to the whole family of what he has done - or failed doing.
Thats why he most likely will kill himself as well.
 
Read above. I said you will find crimes of passion and the premeditated spousal murders are more of individual man's honour rather than the Eastern "honour killing" which is related to family honour - the reason why brothers and sisters get involved perhaps. Both have the same dynamic, one of preserving either the individual's honour, or of preserving the family's honour.
 
In the instant you point out of "what he has done", if you look at some of the pre-meditated spousal abuse cases, you will find some men who have had affairs and made their mistress/lover pregnant, and in order to stop this from reaching their wives, they've opted to kill the lover and the child. A case in point is Laci Peterson, though it's pretty common. This is surely a case of a man preserving his honour in front of his wife, so she doesnt leave him. If she finds out he was dishonourable or unfaithful to her, then she would leave him.

Yes - I see a difference in what you call personal honor - or whatever reason any individual could have - and the "family honor" concept.
But isnt honor for all humans - not only men?
In a case where a mistress becomes pregnent as you say, my concern would be not to hurt the feelings of my spouse, not to protect my (or her) "honor". If I would kill for it? - certainly not - and noone would expect me to. 
If I did, I would be guilty 2 times instead of one.
 

 
Honor Killings are crimes deliberately planned, leading to the execution of one person - and everyone is expected to walk free with honor restored. That is quite another story.  
 
Honour killings can be deliberately planned, as can spousal murder.

Indeed... 
 
Noone is expected to walk free..It's a rare occurrence and carried out by irrational, perhaps insecure people. Every murderer hopes to get away with it.
 
Oh yes - expected to walk free - in some countries even condoned by law as established earlier in this thread - or reported as suicide and therefore never brought to trial. 
  
Thanks to all the great posters in this thread, I think everyone have had a better chance to understand the reasons behind Honor Killings - and/or to form or express their own opinion about the issue.
At least - it gave me more insight and understanding, but still I found no reasons not to condemn it in any way.
 
I think you'll find almost every sane person on the planet finds it abhorrent. 
 
Yes - and the more its brought out in the open, the better.
 
All in all - I dont think we disagree a whole lot - I just clearly see a difference between these "types" of killings, whereas you prefer to see them all related.

If I should think of another crime in western societies that I would consider in the same category as Honor Killings, it would be when a street gang in NY or LA executes a member for being disloyal in some way. They usually also have a highly evolved concept of honor - for lack of so much else.
 
 


Edited by Northman - 11-Jul-2006 at 11:10
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 13:34
Originally posted by Northman

Tele Indus.... You seem determined to equate all domestic murders between spouses to Honor Killings or visa versa - and that is your free choice.
But I guess quite a few in here clearly can see a difference.
 
I'm equating a crime of passion or pre meditated spousal murder over infidelity, marital problems, to honour killings, though there are other examples.
 
 
Originally posted by Northman

Except from the fact, that deep feelings are involved in both cases, I think there is a distinct difference between the two.
 
In my opinion, "Crime of passion" is comitted in the heat of the moment - finding your partner in bed with a lover - or as result to a coincidental heated argument, not intentionally leading to any crime.
If the crime is comitted after some time of such events, ie. some hours or the next day - it cannot be considered a "Crime of Passion".
 
Read my second post on this thread. There are instances when men or women will commit crimes of passion or "heat of the moment" crimes, and some cases will be of pre meditated spousal murder. The same happens in honour killings, some are heat of the moment, and some are pre meditated. I think that honour is violated in both instances.
 
Sometimes we hear about a man killing his partner or whole family for various reasons - and in most cases he would take his own life as well.
These cases are not Crimes of Passion, nor Honor Killings.
For sure - honor (or rather shame) can be one of the reasons, but not in the same context as "Honor Killings" discussed here.
 
If a man kills his partner for having an affair, how is this not a crime of passion? (or pre-meditated spousal homicide, if this is what occurs)

 
It is  - but only if comitted instantly - not after planning, and thats what I'm talking about (heat of the moment cant be 5 days later) 
 
How is this not pre-meditated spousal murder then. The point I'm making to you is that pre meditated spousal homicide is a crime of passion, except pre-meditated. Do you not think it is possible for a jilted lover to commit a pre-meditated murder over feelings of disloyalty?
 
 
Originally posted by Northman
When a husband kills his wife, its not to restore his or the family honor. Mostly its caused in by jealousy, - or the simple idea of - if I cant have her - nobody can.
 
 
 
You are not understanding me..I am saying that when a husband kills a wife in the West, it's not over family honour (this is more of an Eastern concept) - rather, in my opinion, it is over individual "male honour"
 
I totally disagree that crimes of passion and the pre-meditated homocides where women are killed by husbands, are mostly caused by jealousy. A more common drive is the feeling of disloyalty..the feeling of being jilted. These two feelings arise due to nothing more than the individual pride and honour a person has. Do you not accept that some men murder their unfaithful partners in a pre-meditated fashion due to the feeling of being jilted or due to the feeling of disloyalty from a partner?
 
I disagree..A husband can kill a wife for many reasons. One reason might be jealousy, another might be a feeling of her acting disloyally after all the hard work he (or she) has put into the relationship. There can be many reasons. Certainly disloyalty can be classed as an individual's honour. Are you suggesting that men cannot feel betrayed if a partner has an affair?

First - I said mostly - not exclusively (I underlined that to you)
 
I disagree most men kill out of jealousy. It's a contradiction what you're saying. For a man to get jealous and not feel jilted required him to be pretty secure, and most of these murders will be committed by insecure and irrational people. I basically disagree with you saying that most men kill out of jealousy. I think crimes of passion and pre meditated spousal murder have many other reasons. I'll give you a quick example.
 
 
In the case of  the pre meditated spousal abuse mentioned, what do you think the underlying factor is? They're all pregnant, this has nothing to do with jealousy, what it does have to do are feelings of betrayal, of individual male honour to keep affairs secret etc etc. There's plenty of reasons and jealousy is a very very minor reason, most definitely not a majority one.
 
Second - of course men can feel betrayed, so can women.
 
Women can feel betrayed of course, I dont believe I mentioned otherwise
 

But only men is allowed a personal honor?....  Sorry I dont think so.
 
Northman, where are you getting this from? Where, anywhere did I say that only men have honour? Women also commit these crimes. It's not unheard of for women to kill their husbands over things like this. In their case it's almost always a sense of betrayal.
 

I think all this talk of honor derives from the concept that men think they own the family and all the members in it. Most modern western families are beyond this conception and accept women and children as equal human beings with equal rights.

 
Can you not see that a person who has been completely loyal and faithful to his wife or vica versa, will be overcome with jilted anger stemming from the disloyalty of an unfaithful partner. They might accept children, women as equals, just with a moral "tightness" similar to their own. There's a whole array of cases, but to say that you cannot hurt a Western man's honour is really ridiculous - any unfaithful act commited by a partner in a relationship with a faithful man/woman will result a feeling of being jilted. For some people this can knock their pride/esteem/honour. You cannot be denying this surely?  
 
In Switzerland it's been suggested that some husband/wife killings arising from marital problems arise because of the male honour/pride being attacked - "I think these killings are the 'honour killings' of Switzerland," she says. "Family problems are seen as a defeat for the man, it all has to do with male honour."

Psychologist Philip Jaffe agrees with this interpretation, but believes it will take years for male attitudes to change."

 
Originally posted by Northman
Let me try to explain how I would react if my dear beloved spouse "betrayed" me. 
I would ask myself - what is she missing here with me, what have I done wrong, or missed doing - why is it necessary for her to look elsewhere?
I would ask her, and I would try to correct my wrongs.
If that isnt enough, I must realize that her love has vanished - and I must let her go if that is what she wants.
I know she will grant me the same respect in the reversed case.
Equality - free people in a free world. 
 
 
Oh God Northman. You do realize you are not talking to a freak here, do you not? I totally agree with what you said, and I would do the same? The question I have is why do you believe the majority of people would not do the same as that?
 
Personally I doubt I'd ask myself what's missing.
 
Originally posted by Northman
The cases where a whole family is killed including the man himself, the dynamics could seem similar to Honor Killings, but there is a significant difference.
The reason may be social detour, bankruptsy or whatever - but these killings are never to save his or the family honor because of what another family member has done, but to avoid exposure of shame to the whole family of what he has done - or failed doing.
Thats why he most likely will kill himself as well.
 
Read above. I said you will find crimes of passion and the premeditated spousal murders are more of individual man's honour rather than the Eastern "honour killing" which is related to family honour - the reason why brothers and sisters get involved perhaps. Both have the same dynamic, one of preserving either the individual's honour, or of preserving the family's honour.
 
In the instant you point out of "what he has done", if you look at some of the pre-meditated spousal abuse cases, you will find some men who have had affairs and made their mistress/lover pregnant, and in order to stop this from reaching their wives, they've opted to kill the lover and the child. A case in point is Laci Peterson, though it's pretty common. This is surely a case of a man preserving his honour in front of his wife, so she doesnt leave him. If she finds out he was dishonourable or unfaithful to her, then she would leave him.

Yes - I see a difference in what you call personal honor - or whatever reason any individual could have - and the "family honor" concept.
But isnt honor for all humans - not only men?
 
Absolutely. Let me give you an example. 40% of murders that are classified as "honour killings" in Pakistan are commited by women on men. If you like the reference I can give it you, but it was by a neutral body. A proportion of these might be due to the female honour being violated.
 
In a case where a mistress becomes pregnent as you say, my concern would be not to hurt the feelings of my spouse, not to protect my (or her) "honor". If I would kill for it? - certainly not - and noone would expect me to. 
If I did, I would be guilty 2 times instead of one.
 
 
Well most sane people wouldn't kill for it, in the West or in the East.

 
Originally posted by Northman
Honor Killings are crimes deliberately planned, leading to the execution of one person - and everyone is expected to walk free with honor restored. That is quite another story.  
 
Honour killings can be deliberately planned, as can spousal murder.

Indeed... 
 
Noone is expected to walk free..It's a rare occurrence and carried out by irrational, perhaps insecure people. Every murderer hopes to get away with it.
 
Oh yes - expected to walk free - in some countries even condoned by law as established earlier in this thread - or reported as suicide and therefore never brought to trial. 
 
I missed it. Could you give me the countries. I assume you're talking about honour killings, which I agree in some countries do get a bit of leniency, but crimes of passion do also get leniency in the West. I dont speak with much authority on the court system in other countries, I know that honour crimes are now punishable by death in Pakistan, definitely no leniency in the sentence there.
 
Originally posted by Northman
Thanks to all the great posters in this thread, I think everyone have had a better chance to understand the reasons behind Honor Killings - and/or to form or express their own opinion about the issue.
At least - it gave me more insight and understanding, but still I found no reasons not to condemn it in any way.
 
I think you'll find almost every sane person on the planet finds it abhorrent. 
 
Yes - and the more its brought out in the open, the better.
 
I guess, same for crimes of passion and spousal murders.
 
 
All in all - I dont think we disagree a whole lot - I just clearly see a difference between these "types" of killings, whereas you prefer to see them all related.
 
I think you will find most sane people in all the cultures in the world will think murder is wrong. I do believe there is such a thing as Western honour even if it's more individual than grouped into families. Perhaps a Greek might understand it better, I don't know..

If I should think of another crime in western societies that I would consider in the same category as Honor Killings, it would be when a street gang in NY or LA executes a member for being disloyal in some way. They usually also have a highly evolved concept of honor - for lack of so much else.
 
Honour killings where brothers/sisters get involved, perhaps.
 
I guess the same could apply to a gangland thug who ends it for getting rebuffed or shoved by someone he bumped into on a street - this rebuff being too much for his "male honour" to take.


Edited by TeldeInduz - 11-Jul-2006 at 14:01
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 14:36
Originally posted by Northman

Except from the fact, that deep feelings are involved in both cases, I think there is a distinct difference between the two.
 
...
When a husband kills his wife, its not to restore his or the family honor. Mostly its caused in by jealousy, - or the simple idea of - if I cant have her - nobody can.

The cases where a whole family is killed including the man himself, the dynamics could seem similar to Honor Killings, but there is a significant difference.
The reason may be social detour, bankruptsy or whatever - but these killings are never to save his or the family honor because of what another family member has done, but to avoid exposure of shame to the whole family of what he has done - or failed doing.
Thats why he most likely will kill himself as well.

Northman, I think you are adopting a somewhat apologetic approach towards these crimes of passion and I find it somewhat insincere of you. I think it is clear to everybody that both concepts are closely related to some out-dated notion of honor and must be unequivocally and unconditionally condemned.


Honor Killings are crimes deliberately planned, leading to the execution of one person - and everyone is expected to walk free with honor restored. That is quite another story.  
 

This is of course not true that people are expected to walk free! You can see that in the case of Meryem Turkish authorities have taken immediate action not only against the murderer, but againt the whole family.  Most people would see no honor in killing a woman for whatever reason, whether in the East or in the West.

Both crimes of passion in the West and crimes of honor in the East are abhorrant manifestations of femicide, and there is no need to discriminate and make non-existant distinctions between the two.

A great ammount of research has been carried out on the concepts of "Honor Killings" "Heat-of-passion crimes". Goldstein for isntance gives insights on the biological roots of heat-of-passion and honor crimes.

The biological roots of heat-of-passion crimes and honor killings, Goldstein

Politics and the Life Sciences v. 21 no. 2 (September 2002) p. 28-37
Abstract:

"Heat-of-passion crimes" are committed by jealous men against supposedly unfaithful mates, "honor killings" by vengeful relatives against female family members who have disgraced them. These terms are imprecise, and they overlap greatly in usage, but they are similarly, and troublingly, guilt-mitigating. Heat-of-passion crimes and honor killings are universally reported yet vary in incidence culture-to-culture. While typically among the most violent of domestic attacks, they are to different degrees protected in law. Nearly every culture has, or until recently has had, defenses to male culpability based on the supposed effects of provocation. The invention and persistence of these defenses needs explanation. This paper considers a biological perspective, in which heat-of-passion crimes and honor killings are understood as maladaptive byproducts of an evolved male sexual aggression subject to intensification by external threats to paternal certainty. Moral and procedural implications of this perspective, as well as its limitations, are discussed.




Edited by bg_turk - 11-Jul-2006 at 15:14
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 17:06
I will combine my answer to you both here.
 
TeleInduz...
Let me see if I can state this as clear as I want...
 
I think you try to make me see 2 things:

#1. You want to make me see that its possible for a male in the west to feel his honor or selfesteem violated if he is rejected by his spouse to the advantage of another man - that he can commit a passion of crime because of this - or a pre mediated one as well in this situation.?
Yes - I think that is possible...
 
#2. You want to make me see that #1 is equivalent to eastern Honor Killings because they both are honor-related?
No - I dont think the are quite the same - although both are disgusting murders.
  
You can read more of my reasoning in my answer to bg_turk below.
 
 
Originally posted by bg_turk


Northman, I think you are adopting a somewhat apologetic approach towards these crimes of passion and I find it somewhat insincere of you. I think it is clear to everybody that both concepts are closely related to some out-dated notion of honor and must be unequivocally and unconditionally condemned.

I can give you a quick answer to that one.
NO - I am not excusing any murder - and please do not assign opinions to me that I never expressed.
 
Please understand this....
I am trying to convey that in my mind, there is a difference between what is said or done in a moment of heat, compared to what is carefully planned and then carried out.
We all can say or do something we dont mean in a heated moment - but if we sit down and carefully plan what to do, is much different.
Dont get me wrong - if we talk about killing another person, in both cases we are way beyond what can be excused for any reason. But I thought we were trying to understand the background for these crimes. Or at least, I was.
We have condemned killings way back in this thread, but we can of course, do it again.

About expecting to walk free after an Honor Killing.
Well - as you know, I'm fully aware that they are brought to trial in most countries - but when some countries still acknowledge and condone it in their law, its safe to say that in these countries they can expect to walk free. If I was too generous in that expression and made it sound like an universal thing, I'm sorry. 

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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jul-2006 at 14:02
Originally posted by Northman

Please understand this....
I am trying to convey that in my mind, there is a difference between what is said or done in a moment of heat, compared to what is carefully planned and then carried out.
We all can say or do something we dont mean in a heated moment - but if we sit down and carefully plan what to do, is much different.
Dont get me wrong - if we talk about killing another person, in both cases we are way beyond what can be excused for any reason. But I thought we were trying to understand the background for these crimes. Or at least, I was.

I can understand your thoughts, Northman, but I disagree with them. I personally believe that people, no matter whether they come from the East or from the West, are  on a fundamental level all the same. In my eyes it is that same evil psychology of male supremacy that drives a husband to kill his wife and children in the West, or a brother to kill his sister in the East. On the surface they might seem different due to mostly irreleavnt cultural variation, but in the end they both boil down to the same thing - they are all horrible acts of femicide motivated by male supremacis ideology.





Edited by bg_turk - 12-Jul-2006 at 14:11
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 05:32
Originally posted by bg_turk

Originally posted by Northman

Please understand this....
I am trying to convey that in my mind, there is a difference between what is said or done in a moment of heat, compared to what is carefully planned and then carried out.
We all can say or do something we dont mean in a heated moment - but if we sit down and carefully plan what to do, is much different.
Dont get me wrong - if we talk about killing another person, in both cases we are way beyond what can be excused for any reason. But I thought we were trying to understand the background for these crimes. Or at least, I was.

I can understand your thoughts, Northman, but I disagree with them. I personally believe that people, no matter whether they come from the East or from the West, are  on a fundamental level all the same. In my eyes it is that same evil psychology of male supremacy that drives a husband to kill his wife and children in the West, or a brother to kill his sister in the East. On the surface they might seem different due to mostly irreleavnt cultural variation, but in the end they both boil down to the same thing - they are all horrible acts of femicide motivated by male supremacis ideology.

bg_turk...
It would be so much easier if we talked about the same thing. 
Your answer is totally out of context to my statement - read them both carefully.
 
I am comparing "crime of passion murders" versus "planned pre meditaded murders" wich are universal concepts - both happens everywhere, East, West, North and South.
 
You are comparing crimes comitted in the East versus the West in your answer. That is hardly what I spoke about.
Where do I state that I think a murder comitted in the West isnt as bad as one comitted in the East?
Its kinda funny - you say you disagree with what I say - but I can almost agree on, word for word, what you say in your answer. Could it be because you chose to understand my statement in a way that would serve your purpose better?

In this thread we are talking about "Honor Killings" - and I think its safe to say, that most people connect this term with a case similar to the first post in this thread.
If you and TeldeInduz wants to discuss other kinds of murder - related to mens honor or not, feel free to do it - but that is for another thread. I will gladly comment and condemn them as well. 

Once again - please dont assign opinions to me, that I dont have and never claimed to have. If you read my posts a little more carefully, maybe this wont happen. Smile
 
 


Edited by Northman - 13-Jul-2006 at 05:34
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  Quote TeldeInduz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 22:42
I actually interpreted what you said the same way as Bg_Turk, northman. Here you say,
 
Originally posted by Northman

Please understand this....
I am trying to convey that in my mind, there is a difference between what is said or done in a moment of heat, compared to what is carefully planned and then carried out.
We all can say or do something we dont mean in a heated moment - but if we sit down and carefully plan what to do, is much different.
 
I assumed here you were saying that there is a difference between honor killings (pre planned) and crimes of passion (heat of the moment), though you're ignoring that there is absolutely no emotional difference between honour killings (pre planned) and pre-planned spousal homicide which is common in the West - the only difference being in the West it might be associated with individual honour, in the East it might be associated more with family honour.
 
So, if you agree to this, that cases where a husband kills his wife over an affair she commits (in a pre-planned way), have the same dynamic as an honour killing..then I dont see how we disagree?
 
FYI, the first post in the thread isnt how honour killings are usually carried out, most common way is of husbands losing it like in a crime of passion. For every honour killing though, there is an equal type of homicide in the West, if you take away the cultural differences..it's just the same human emotions at work..


Edited by TeldeInduz - 13-Jul-2006 at 22:48
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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jul-2006 at 23:10
Northman,

I had written a reply, but I deleted it because on a second reading it looked really confusing, I will try to rephrase now.

You say that what I wrote was out of context, but I think what you wrote was equally out of context if you wanted me to inerpret it as a general statement as you are now claiming.

My point was and still is that there is no difference between the killing of Meryem and Corrine. You did not accept my point, or at least that is how I understood your asking me to understand that there is a difference between "what is said or done in a moment of heat, compared to what is carefully planned and then carried out". By this and in the context of my previous reply to you, I understood you meant to say that "Honor Crimes" are "premediated and carefully planned", whereas "Crimes of Passion" are not, and they are comitted spontaneously. This in my opinion was a faulty logic and an unnecessary generalization, and I expressed my disaproval of it.  My opinion still remains that "honor crimes" and "crimes of passion" are the same thing. One can find exampes of honor crimes that are sponaneous and where the perpetrator commits the crime without any planning, and even against the will of the family; one can equally find crimes of passion which are carefully planned.

Unfortunately, the criteria most people use to classify these types of crimes is if they are comitted by easteners or westeners. If it is comitted by an easteners it is carefully planned, where if it is by a westeners it is spontaneous; if it is by an Easteners it is the result of social backwardness, whereas if it is by a Westeners it is provoked by jealousy. I have no reason to believe that you have this kind of thinking, but  ... when I tried to bring up an example of an "honor crime" from the West, and your failed to acknowledge it to be in the same category as the other crimes quoted by you and me, it made me suspicious of your motives. That's all, sorry if I misunderstood or misinterpreted your words.




Edited by bg_turk - 13-Jul-2006 at 23:11
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 12:59
For all interested in the conclusion...
 
Today, the Surpreme Court in Denmark affirmed all sentences as of june 28'th 2006.
In one case the verdict was extended to include expelling the person for life after doing the jail sentence.
 
I'll repeat the verdicts from my post of june 28'th 2006 here:
 
The Sentences:

Lifetime:
Ghulam Abbas - 57 years
- Ghazalas father. (planning and ordering the killing)
16 years: Aktar Abbas - 30 years - Ghazalas brother. (firing 6 shots - 2 bullets killed Ghazala)

14 years + expelled for life: Perveen Khan - 40 years - Ghazalas aunt. (decoy - used her influence to lead the couple to the scene of the killing)

16 years: Walayat Khan - 46 years - Ghazalas mothers brother (actively hunting for the victims) - married to Perveen Khan.

10 years: Anser Iqbal - 45 years - friend of Walayat Khan (aiding the aunt in her role as decoy)

16 years: Asghar Ali (the older) - 42 years - Ghazalas fathers brother. (aiding the father to plan the killing)

8 years: Naweed Sharif - 30 years - friend of the family. (driver for the brother on the mission)

14 years + expelled for life: Asghar Ali (the younger) - 31 years - cousin to Ghazala brother of Perveen Khan. (with the brother in the car)

10 years: Ghulam Ahmed - 36 years - friend of Ghazalas brother. (with the brother in the car - did a half-hearted attempt to leak information about the plan)

_______________
There is no further possibility for trying this case - the verdicts are now final.
 
~ Northman
 
 
   


Edited by Northman - 28-Feb-2007 at 13:03
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