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Feminism - has it gone too far?

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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Feminism - has it gone too far?
    Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 10:43
DEBATE of the month

I've decided to start a Debate of the Month in Women's History. Once the month is finished, this thread will simply be destickied and renamed, and a new one put up in its place.

My idea for this month is women's rights in the West and my suggestion is that they've gone too far in one respect.

Over the last century, women around the world and particularly in the West have enjoyed a surge in their rights and freedoms but, in my opinion, a generalized decrease in their responsibilities.

The right to dress as you please, the right to vote, to right to work in any field you're capable of working in - all of these rights are good. It's very important that women be allowed to contribute to the society if only for ideas of the common good. Look at any university graduating class, at how well the best of the women compare to the best of the men - often their marks are even higher.

But women in the West lost when radical feminism hijacked the goals of women's rights. Being a mother or a homemaker is nothing shameful and if a modern woman, who is free to make her own decisions, chooses that path then so be it. She hasn't turned her back of women's rights or anything like this, she's simply challenging the modern interpretation of them.

Don't get me started on how they carry themselves. I would be ashamed to walk through the streets in sneakers or flat-heeled shoes. Now I don't question any woman's right to wear those things, but I do question some bastardized idea of women's rights where casting aside your femininity is considered modern and good. During the war in Bosnia there was something called the "War booty makeover". Young women cut their hair short, wore pants and sneakers, and did this so the other side's soldiers would not find them attractive and rape them. What is fairly common dress in the West is considered masculine and unattractive because we held onto our femininity through everything. I think any expression of women's rights should make pink lipstick and flowery dresses just as acceptable as 96/100 marks in chemistry and physics. It's freedom for women, not freedom from women - as the saying goes.

One of the most damaging things I've noticed about feminism in the West is that it has disconnected women from each other. There are very few cultures in this world where a woman's worst enemy is other women, and what they think of her. There are very few where the competition between women is such a blood sport and the only quality they all have in common, that I can determine, is a history of radical feminism.

It's also warped women's expectations. Why a 114 pound woman expects to be make it through the police academy based solely on the fact she has a clitoris is beyond me. If I'm in danger, I don't want some scrawny girl a fair sized dog could bring down coming to help me. Now that's not to say there a women who can't do it. There are women in this world who are just as strong as any man and they should be free to make it into such fields without prejudice, but allowing women - or even men, for that matter - to enter physically demanding fields they're not cut out for is dangerous and irresponsible.

Lastly it has detached women from their foundations, the home. My mother worked and I work and I will never, ever tolerate a society in which women are confined to and solely responsible for the home - but neither will I tolerate one in which the home is not theirs. The home is what connects us to society, it's what we are. Even in the most hardcore, traditional Islamic societies - a woman in the home is free to dress as she likes and interact with others in a way easily recogizable even to Western feminists. If we throw all this away, we've lost something - and call me selfish - but we've lost something men will never have. We can be, do, and have everything that men can, but they cannot have the home. It's what sets us apart. It's just like every city having roads. Could it be different, of course - but it's not.

So that's my impression. Don't agree, lemme have it. ;)
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 10:53
I do not feel that the fact I wear jeans and sneakers allmost all the time makes me any less female, or any more butchy. So I defenately do not agree with you on that.
But recently a lady in parliament said to the papers here she thinks it is the duty of every woman to go to work. She claimed it should not be acceptable a woman can just choose to stay at home and not contribute to society. She even tried to get in a law that would force women with higher education to do payed work for at least 5 years after her study, since the government here pays a large portion of this education. This I think is crazy. I do not even want children or be a home wife, but this is idiotic. Fortunately, that is what the rest of parlaiment thought too...Tongue

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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 14:56

Mila, while I like the idea of the "Debate of the Month", I cannot agree with you even with the topic of this particular debate. Women's rights are no different and should not be different from men's rights. If I ask the question: "Have men's rights in the West gone too far?" I am pretty sure you will dismiss me as being silly!!!

In asking the question of whether women's rights in the West have gone too far, you are succumbing yourself to patriarchal thinking. Women should be able to whatever they want to do without society's, specifically men's, "approval".
  
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  Quote Mila Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 15:01
Aelfgifu: I agree that women should not be forced to work, that's foolish. It's no more necessary than it is to force men to work. Quality of life will push most men and women to work, at least as little as necessary.

As for sneakers... it's just a symbol of masculinity for me. I look at these photographs of women in the West from the 1980s, with giant shoulder pads and business suits, and I'm just reminded of... I don't know, really... a deer that has been shot in the shoulder and is aimlessly wandering around. I just get this tug in my heart when I see women from that era and think, "Oh, you poor thing..."

I'm sure individual women can wear more or less anything and retain their feminity, I just mean in a general, societal sense.


Flyingzone: I agree with your assertion that women should be free to do whatever they want, regardless of what men believe, but I don't believe that impacts my arguement in any way.
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  Quote Northman Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 18:10

Its quite rare to read a post by which one can learn as much as I did from your post Mila. I had to read it over a few times to grasp the deeper thoughts behind it.

No offence Mila, but suddenly I realized that the very same sentiments could have been written by my mothers generation when they were young, meaning 1930'es - maybe similar conceptions up to the 50'es.
Ie. the pride in not being seen "as is" in public - but always dressed properly up and your remarks about the home. An old saying here is this "The pride of a women is her home" - and more from the same drawer.

I dont think that is how modern women percieve themselves today, and its not because they have gone "too far" but because they feel equal to men. The home is a joint venture.
And to take it a little further, so is cooking, baby care, cleaning the house, taking out the garbage, maintaining the house etc, etc.
Its maybe different in other communities, but thats how it usually is here in Denmark.
Just an example... when we are asked for supper at my sons, HE is in the kitchen preparing the meal, while she welcomes us and most times, I join him in the kitchen to help out, and the girls talks.
This is nothing new - who do you think taught him to cook? Wink

Returning to the "dresscode". 
I guess I would call jeans and sneakers "dressed for the occasion".
Of course if we are going to a formal party, the dresscode would be more formal, but to think you have to dress like that to walk down the street is a limitation of free choice and not very practical.
Do you know the english TV-show "Keeping up Appearance" and Mrs. Bucket - that is of course exaggerated, satiric and humorous, but its along the same line of thoughts.

Noone will ever blame you for dressing nicely - but to think you "have to" is a limitation you should free yourself from (IMO).
I guess I can safely say, that a welldressed woman, is a woman dressed for the ocassion.
 
I'm done "preaching" for now - maybe more later LOL
 


Edited by Northman - 30-Jun-2006 at 18:11
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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 21:15

Mila, after reading Northman's post and re-reading yours, I think I did misunderstand your post. Sorry.

Embarrassed 

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  Quote mamikon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jun-2006 at 21:37
why should men do something that women cant?

I think we need male homemakers...
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  Quote Bosniakum Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2006 at 04:19

Reading all these posts really made me realize how much effect culture has on ones personal perceptions.  I have pretty much grown up in the "West", but still I agree with and understand Mila 100%, probably because we come from the same culture.  The really wierd, but not new thing to me is that everybody here answering to Mila's post does not really understand or believe in some way that what Mila said was her own opinion but something installed in her by society (probably because everybody things theirs is the best way). 

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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jul-2006 at 12:15
I think ideas about appearance are also very much cultural. Here in the Netherlands, we are quite informal in dress and also in contacts with others. Especially compared to coutries around the mediterranian. Dressing up is what we do for special occasions, not for every day. Too unpractical. No girl I know walks around on heels every day.
 
As for man-wonan issues: my pa is retired and does all of the homework, while my mam works full time. And he does a right good job about it: he irons the sheets even, which my mam always refused to do...Tongue In fact, when they were first married, pa taught mam how to cook....

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 14:59
I find it interesting how you refer to femininity as a static defined entity. It is a bit of a subjective term and I would argue that the nature of what is considered feminine has changed, and indeed does vary from time and place.

I do agree that a particular idea of or type of femininity has been cast off in the West, but femininity still is embraced by many. It just might not be in the forms familiar to some.
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  Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 13:42
A very interesting topic, Mila. Thank you. I think it is a great idea to have a monthly debate on women's issues. Maybe now the western and eastern women can understand each other a bit more!

No, Mila! The women of the west have not gone too far. Historically, its taken us too long to get as far as we have, and I believe that women still have a long way to go - even in the West. Dont forget that western women were once slaves to their male counterparts, second class citizens, uneducated, etcetera....just like women in the East. What you perceive as gone too far to most western women only means that they now have choices they can make and opinions they can openly voice and express.

Western women have not decreased their responsibilities to their families and home. On the contrary, women have become a functional part of society (right alongside her male counterpart) and economically aids her partner in making their home and family an experience that can be equally shared by both. Western women now have more choices than they ever had before. Dont confuse gone too far with choices. Western women dont have to dress in halter tops and mini skirts....but, they have a choice to do so if they want to. Western women dont have to vote, work, have children, get married, divorce, etcetera....but, they have a choice to do so if they want to. It all comes down to the rights of making choices in ones life.

When you say, radical feminism hijacked the goals of womens rights, Im not sure exactly what you mean by that...but, the fact that they have the right to be radicals suffices for me. Western women sometimes had to resort to violence and forceful demonstrations in order to get their point across and be taken seriously. I thank some of these radical feminists for pushing the fight onward and keeping it in the forefront. I certainly dont think that they had any bearing on western women walking around in sneakers or flat heeled shoes. I think it means they have a right to wear them if they choose to or not. Women should not have to feel ashamed to walk in sneakers or high heeled shoes. Women should not have to be ashamed of ANYTHING! That is an emotion which has held women back time and time again, generation after generation.

Most western women (it has been my experience) want the same things you and I want...which is to live a happy, fulfilling life, with the same rights and equality that ALL human beings are entitled to. Thats it!

Young men and women always go through what we call fads....but they outgrow it in time and then the next generation comes along with another fad that the generation before thinks is ludicrous. And so on and so on. There is nothing wrong with fads, and that is what the media shows off to the world. The media does not show the NORMAL western woman, going about her business, taking care of her children, her home, her partner, etcetera, because that would be too boring for reporting.

I also disagree that feminism has disconnected women from each other. Competition among women has always existed...be it for the affection of a man or jealousy thereof. I dont know about other western women, but I certainly do not consider other women my enemies at all...on the contrary, we, as women have so much in common and so much to discuss that we become friends NOT foes. If anything, feminism has brought women closer together. Had it not been for all the western women organizing and bringing awareness of the rights movement, women would be no better off today than they were 100 years ago. That takes discipline, strength, and tenacity to accomplish and brings forth a certain amount of sisterhood in common. If that doesnt bring women together, I dont know what does.

Regarding your comments about the police and military academy, while some women are physically weak and lack physical strength, there are certainly some women who are physically strong and can qualify for recruitment. Why should those strong women not have an opportunity to achieve their goals, if it's available to them? Again, just having the right to apply for such a position suffices for me. I know that I could never qualify, but others that can should not be impeded simply because they are women!

I disagree with you when you say We can be, do, and have everything that men can, but they cannot have the home. It's what sets us apart. What is a home if it is not shared by the partners making said home? My better half is a part of that home and, as such, I would not have a home without him. Likewise, he feels the same. Our children are our main concern and we both contribute equally to their education, support, affection, nurturing, their general well-being, etcetera, as well as to each other. Many western families are not much different than eastern families. Westerners love their homes and families the same way that you do. I do not feel that feminism has detached me from this foundation at all. But, it has given me the ability to spread my wings in all different directions and fly as far as I want! That, Mila, is all that should matter....that you have the right and the choice to do it or not!

    

Edited by morticia - 17-Jul-2006 at 16:24
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  Quote Master_Blaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jul-2006 at 19:57
The radical feminist movement in the West has gone too far. Their objective has turned from working for the establishment of women's rights and acceptance of women in the workplace and has been replaced by a feminist agenda to "feminize" Western society.
 
I don't agree with it. Some may consider sexual promiscuity as liberation but I certainly don't.
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  Quote Aelfgifu Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 08:19
Thats probably because you are a chauvinist a**hole like that writer.

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  Quote Master_Blaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 16:01
Originally posted by Aelfgifu

Thats probably because you are a chauvinist a**hole like that writer.

 

Yes, I am a proud "chauvinist a**hole" !

 

I don't want to see women prancing around half-naked seeking unhealthy attention from men, I don't want to see vices such as pornography, sexual promiscuity, prostitution, and other immoral behavior visible in my community. I don't want little girls to feel that they have to look a certain way or engage in premarital sex in order to feel accepted in society. Yes, I guess that makes me a chauvinist a**hole. And a proud one at that.

 

Women should be women and men should be men. Women should try to act like men and men should try to be metrosexuals. Women can have all the freedoms that men enjoy without having to sacrifice their womanhood. Women don't have to stop being mothers, sisters, or daughters.

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  Quote bg_turk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 16:11
At home it was always my father that cooked and did the cleaning. 
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  Quote Master_Blaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jul-2006 at 16:22
Originally posted by bg_turk

At home it was always my father that cooked and did the cleaning. 
 
Shocked
 
 
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  Quote morticia Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jul-2006 at 11:00
Originally posted by bg_turk

At home it was always my father that cooked and did the cleaning.

    
You should be very proud of him! I'm sure he made your mother very happy and made her life much easier by helping out so much. I applaud him!
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  Quote Reginmund Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Jul-2006 at 10:50
Master_Blaster isn't a chauvinist asshole (spare me the censorship), he's a puritan moralist, which is many, many times worse. Of course it's not about pressuring women into wearing miniskirts, it's about them having the option to do so or not without suffering any consequences for their choices. That being said, it's also my opinion that any man who doesn't wish to see women in miniskirts can just chop off his member and donor it to someone who actually has some use of it.

As for feminism, I think it has been a by and large positive influence on our societies. I won't argue whether it's brought women closer together or caused more rivalry, but one thing is for sure; it has brought men and women closer together. Instead of having women and men segregated in different social roles, groups and settings, only brought closer through marriage, we can now interact as friends and equals without causing any controversy. This has surely improved all our lives.
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  Quote Master_Blaster Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 16:21
Regimund,
 
I am not opposed to women wearing miniskirts or other revealing garmants and engaging in premarital sexual relations. I just feel that it demeans women when they behave in such manner as no male-dominated society - Eastern or Western - will view such women with respect.
 
I have absolutely no qualms against a woman dressing seductively or attractively, I just feel that it should be done in good taste so other women and men do not view her with disgust.
 
I also do not feel that mass media ought to influence any person's - man or woman- dressing habits or how a person feels about his or her body. I don't believe that a young girl should starve herself, workout at the gym religiously, and engage in sex before she is ready, just to fit into the "norm" propogated by the Western media.
 
And on closing, yes, I am a bit of a chauvinist asshole and a puritan moralist. :)
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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 19:05
Originally posted by Master_Blaster

 
I am not opposed to women wearing miniskirts or other revealing garmants and engaging in premarital sexual relations. I just feel that it demeans women when they behave in such manner as no male-dominated society - Eastern or Western - will view such women with respect.
 
 
It is "male-dominated society" that is the problem here, not what women should or should not wear.
 
F**k patriarchy!!!!!
 
And how about men engaging in premarital sexual relations? Is it more permissible than women engaging in premarital sexual relations?
 
Originally posted by Master_Blaster

 
I don't believe that a young girl should starve herself, workout at the gym religiously, and engage in sex before she is ready, just to fit into the "norm" propogated by the Western media.
 
 
How about MEN working out at the gym religiously. I am pretty sure the majority of the gym rats are men, not women.
 


Edited by flyingzone - 03-Aug-2006 at 19:13
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