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Mila
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Topic: American forces + beautiful, young Iraqi woman = ? Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 10:50 |
I don't usually post aimlessly about the war in Iraq, but this story
has just torn my heart out. I cannot even explain the anger I
feel.
Associated Press
GIs Eyed in Alleged Rape, Murders in Iraq
By RYAN LENZ
,
06.30.2006, 06:00 PM
A group of American soldiers in an
insurgent-riddled town allegedly noticed a young Iraqi woman when on
patrol and later returned to rape her, according to U.S. officials
Friday. In an apparent cover-up attempt, she and three members of her
family then were killed and her body was set on fire.
Five U.S. troops are being investigated, a
U.S. military official told The Associated Press. It was the sixth
known inquiry into alleged slayings of Iraqi civilians by U.S. troops.
The suspects in the killing, which took place
in March, were from the same platoon as two soldiers kidnapped and
killed south of Baghdad this month, said the official, who is close to
the investigation and spoke on condition of anonymity because of the
sensitivity of the case.
One soldier was arrested after admitting his
role in the alleged attack on the family, the U.S. official said. The
official said the rape and killings appear to have been a "crime of
opportunity," noting that the soldiers had not been attacked by
insurgents but had noticed the woman on previous patrols.
One of the family members they allegedly
killed was a child, said a senior Army official who also requested
anonymity because the investigation is ongoing. Some of the suspects
allegedly burned the woman's body to cover up the attack, the U.S.
official said.
In Baghdad, the U.S. military issued a sparse
statement, saying only that Maj. Gen. James D. Thurman, commander of
the 4th Infantry Division, ordered a criminal investigation into the
alleged slaying of a family of four in Mahmoudiya, 20 miles south of
Baghdad.
However, the U.S. official said the soldiers
were assigned to the 502nd Infantry Regiment. The official told the AP
that the suspects were from the same platoon as two slain soldiers
whose mutilated bodies were found June 19, three days after they were
abducted by insurgents near Youssifiyah southwest of Baghdad.
The military has said one and possibly both of
the slain soldiers were tortured and beheaded. The official said the
mutilation of the slain soldiers stirred feelings of guilt and led at
least one member of the platoon to reveal the rape-slaying on June 22.
According to the senior Army official, the
alleged incident was first revealed by a soldier during a routine
counseling-type session. The official said that soldier did not witness
the incident but heard about it.
A second soldier, who also was not involved,
said he overhead soldiers conspiring to commit the crimes and then
later saw bloodstains on their clothes, the official said.
Before the soldier disclosed the alleged
assault, senior officers had been aware of the family's death but
believed it was a result of sectarian violence, the official said.
One of the five suspects has already been
discharged for unspecified charges unrelated to the killings and is
believed to be in the United States, two U.S. officials said on
condition of anonymity because the investigation is ongoing. The others
have had their weapons taken away and are confined to a U.S. base near
Mahmoudiya.
The allegations of rape could generate a
particularly strong backlash in Iraq, a conservative, strongly
religious society in which many women will not even shake hands with
men who are not close relatives.
The case is among the most serious against
U.S. soldiers allegedly involved in the deaths of Iraqi civilians. At
least 14 U.S. troops have been convicted.
Last week, seven Marines and one Navy medic
were charged with premeditated murder in the shooting death of an Iraqi
man near Fallujah west of Baghdad.
U.S. officials are also investigating
allegations that U.S. Marines killed two dozen unarmed Iraqi civilians
Nov. 19 in the western town of Haditha in a revenge attack after a
fellow Marine died in a roadside bombing.
Other cases involve the deaths of three male
detainees in Salahuddin province in May, the shooting death of unarmed
Iraqi man near Ramadi in February, and the death of an Iraqi soldier
after an interrogation in 2003 at a detention camp in Qaim.
The allegations have aroused public anger
against the U.S. military presence at a time when the new Iraqi
government and U.S. authorities are trying to reach out to disaffected
Sunni Arabs to quell the insurgency and calm sectarian tensions.
On Saturday, Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki
leaves for a whirlwind trip to Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and the United Arab
Emirates to seek support for his national reconciliation initiative,
which includes an amnesty for the mostly Sunni insurgents.
Al-Maliki is also expected to brief the Sunni
leadership of those three countries on his efforts to deal with the
divisions between Shiites and Sunnis. Iraq's neighbors in the Persian
Gulf fear sectarian tensions will spill over into their countries,
which are dominated by Sunnis but have large Shiite minorities.
On Friday, radical Shiite cleric Muqtada
al-Sadr rejected al-Maliki's initiative because it does not include a
timetable for the withdrawal of U.S.-led foreign troops.
"We demand the occupation forces to leave the
country, or at least a timetable should be set for their withdrawal,"
al-Sadr said during a sermon.
Despite al-Maliki's efforts, there has been no
letup in Iraq's violence. The U.S. military reported four more American
service members have died, including a Marine killed Friday in fighting
west of Baghdad. Three Army soldiers died in combat the day before, the
military said.
AP correspondent Ryan Lenz is embedded with
the 101st Airborne Division in Beiji, Iraq. He was previously embedded
with the 502nd Infantry Regiment in Mahmoudiya. AP correspondent Lolita
C. Baldor in Washington contributed to this report.
Edited by Mila - 02-Jul-2006 at 10:50
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flyingzone
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Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 11:05 |
While most in the military are decent people, there are some who join it definitely for the wrong reasons - among them the idea of "being a hero". (I think today the word "hero" has been overused, misused, and abused so much that it's completely lost its meaning - someone who rescues a kitten is a hero, a millionaire basketball player is a hero, a rock start is a hero ... gimme a break). I saw this story on TV about a gang member who says he wants to join the military and go to Iraq (but he cannot because he has miltiple criminal records god knows for doing what and has a full-body tattoo) because he knows he's going to die in a gang fight sooner or later and so he prefers dying or returning home from Iraq as a "war hero". THIS is what motivates some to go there - to be a "hero". And as a result, THIS is the quality of some of the soldiers there "defending freedom", not to mention the fact that a lot of them are young and not that educated AND a few of them are simply sick psychopaths.
Edited by flyingzone - 02-Jul-2006 at 17:05
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SearchAndDestroy
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Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 13:09 |
Are you sure people join with these intentions? I believe war can change a person very easily. They say after seeing many of your friends die before you and going against your nerve and staying to fight when your mind is telling you to flee can make a person numb to death and with that violence.
And about the gangs, I actually think those are the people trying to reform themselves, it's easy to look down on them because they are known as scum, but usually people that come from between a rock and a hard place are those who want to change their lives and start a new. Maybe thats just my opinion, and certainly doesn't count for them all, but then you can never speak for everyone as a majority.
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"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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DayI
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Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 13:49 |
Its a big shame for me to call those pigs as soldiers, a bunch of psychotic barbarians who came from the jungle who are dropped somwhere in Iraq thats what they are! I heard from a English general that mostly American soldiers are motivated from Hollywood movies, if you watch this clib you wont be suprise why those bullsh*t happens out there. Link of the clib, click here
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SearchAndDestroy
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Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 14:19 |
They aren't motivated by Hollywood. And about that clip, I'm sure you can do that with just about anyone, and if we were going to choose someone then the Russians probably faced the most abuse by Hollywood.
I've known quite a few soldiers, never heard them mention a movie, they all say they want a education, to serve their country, or because they believe in the current cause, but Hollywood, no.
It only take a few bad apple to make the rest look bad. With that said, these people should get the death penalty for this cruel act and disgracing their nation even further, though I beginning to wonder if it could be disgraced anymore then it already is...
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"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 14:52 |
Its not a few bad apples. It seems to be endemic. And the worst part is that US military seems to be covering up. Its sad. I remember reading in Eisenhower's crusade in Europe, that in Gerrmany a few soldiers, from Patton's third army raped a few women, they were arrested within the hour charged, court martialed. Not only that, but the Section Leader, the Platoon and Company commnder were sacked, and the Battalion and Brigade commanders warned.
In thuis case there seems to be a tradition of passing the buck.
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SearchAndDestroy
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Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 15:17 |
Covering up? They sure as hell did a bad job at it. They announced a investigation on soldiers that killed a man that they said was a insurgent, they announced it, the media didn't dig it up.
All these incidents happened month apart, hardly a "Endemic" when the numbers of US soldiers are huge. So far there have been six incidents of Humans rights abuse, Abu Gharib being on of them that happened in 2003. Six incidents from a number of soldiers I doubt even reaches 50 out of 100,000 US soldiers.
"Endemic" right?....
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"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Tobodai
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Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 16:48 |
Stuff like this happened all the time in the Vietnam war, actually it happened alot more then. Guerilla insurgencies do that to people, its not as structured or predictable as conventional war. And not to sound like an ass , but whens the last time there was a war where soldiers didnt rape people?
I do agree that the standards of the army have decreased quite a bit though, it doesnt take a genious to figure out why (stupid war, bad leadership, etc).
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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
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flyingzone
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Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 17:10 |
SearchAndDestroy: Please note my words in bold. I wasn't trying to denigrate the whole U.S. military. But I am very sure some people join the military wanting to "be a hero".
While I applaud those who want to "rehabilitate" themselves from their gang life by joining the military, I would like to ask them: Why joining the military? Why do they have to re-associate themselves with firearms and killing people (even justifiably so) for their "rehabilitation"? Don't they have anything "better" to do? How about a much less "glamorous" 9-to-5 job that most of us do?
Edited by flyingzone - 02-Jul-2006 at 17:11
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Illuminati
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Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 17:31 |
While I applaud those who want to "rehabilitate" themselves from
their gang life by joining the military, I would like to ask them: Why
joining the military? Why do they have to re-associate themselves with
firearms and killing people (even justifiably so) for their
"rehabilitation"? Don't they have anything "better" to do? How about
a much less "glamorous" 9-to-5 job that most of us do? |
Because the strict lifestyle and discipline in the military is what changes them. your standard 9-5 job, is just that....a job. The military (while you'e in it) is a lifestyle. Plus, you have to take into consideration that a former gang member most likely doesn't have a college education, and in many cases, doesn't even finish high school. They aren't going to be able to get a job that allows them to finish school, and get a degree, or learn a trade in most cases. Whereas, the military will educate them, and give them the opportunity to get a degree, or give them money when they leave the military to go to college with. From what I've read, it's the complete lifestyle change that former gangmembers are going for. They want to get as far away as their past as they can. also, you make the assumption that in the military you have to kill people. THe majority of military occupations are support ones in which you'll most likely never see any combat. During Vietnam, only 10% of soldiers ever saw combat.
Edited by Illuminati - 02-Jul-2006 at 18:21
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SearchAndDestroy
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Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 17:51 |
SearchAndDestroy: Please note my words in bold. I wasn't trying to denigrate the whole U.S. military. But I am very sure some people join the military wanting to "be a hero". |
I didn't mean it in a defensive way, sorry if it came out, I was just discussing the issue from what I know of on the subject.
On the second half of what you said, Illuminati gave a good answer which was my understanding of it all.
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Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 18:26 |
Originally posted by Tobodai
it doesnt take a genious to figure out why (stupid war, bad leadership, etc). |
yep, that's what you get with demoralized soldiers in an unwinnable and pointless war. If they don't get out of Iraq, the number of 'incidents' will only increase.
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Posted: 02-Jul-2006 at 23:41 |
I read that what weve been told is just the tip of the iceberg.
I wonder if soldiers have been taking drugs??? Has anyone on here been to Iraq as a soldier, is a lot of drug taking going down????
Edited by machine - 03-Jul-2006 at 22:04
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flyingzone
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Posted: 03-Jul-2006 at 00:12 |
Originally posted by Illuminati
Because the strict lifestyle and discipline in the military is what changes them. your standard 9-5 job, is just that....a job. The military (while you'e in it) is a lifestyle. Plus, you have to take into consideration that a former gang member most likely doesn't have a college education, and in many cases, doesn't even finish high school. They aren't going to be able to get a job that allows them to finish school, and get a degree, or learn a trade in most cases. Whereas, the military will educate them, and give them the opportunity to get a degree, or give them money when they leave the military to go to college with. From what I've read, it's the complete lifestyle change that former gangmembers are going for. They want to get as far away as their past as they can.
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If you are a drug addict or alcoholic, one of the most crucial things for you to avoid during your rehabilitation is any contact with drugs or alcohol. So the logic behind my argument is that, if you are a gang member who is so used to firearms and so desensitized to violence, if you decide to get away from that kind of lifestyle, shouldn't you try to stay away from firearms and any kind of work that has the potential to be violent?
But I do agree with your points on education (or the lack of it) and discipline. I am also pretty sure that the military experience has helped some to turn their lives around. As a matter of fact, these are the stories we hear about most, thanks to the general reluctance of the public to criticize the military especially in the time of war. However, I would just like to point out the fact that underneath a soldier's uniform (which automatically accords him or her some "moral authority"), there is a multitude of motivations and a kaleidoscope of human behaviours that even "total institutions" such as the military cannot entirely uniformize.
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Tobodai
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Posted: 03-Jul-2006 at 01:03 |
Soldiers in the field almost always do lots of drugs. Most of us probably would too in such a situation. However nowadays most Americans are too busy glorify those in the armed services an dinfallible so these things take them by suprise, we forget that they are peopel jsut like us.
Reminds me, I once wrote a paper on comparing the rise of neoconservatism in America with militarism in Japan. One of the first similarities was glorification of the armed forces coupled with disdain for the urban for the rural. Invasions of random countries followed soon after...
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Illuminati
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Posted: 03-Jul-2006 at 04:04 |
If you are a drug addict or alcoholic, one of the most crucial
things for you to avoid during your rehabilitation is any contact with
drugs or alcohol. So the logic behind my argument is that, if you are a
gang member who is so used to firearms and so desensitized to violence,
if you decide to get away from that kind of lifestyle, shouldn't you
try to stay away from firearms and any kind of work that has the
potential to be violent? |
Drugs addiction is a recognized medical disease that involves the chemistry of the brain. Whereas violence is not. I agree with your point to a certain extent, but it's a rough comparison. There are people who have mental disorders that make them committ violence (serial killers), but it's nowhere near the extent that drug addiction is when it comes to the masses. I would agree that it's best they get more "peaceful" jobs, but as you said too, it's also a big issue with educational opportunities, job security, and decent pay. and you are right, for all the people that the military changes for the better, there's always going to be some that aren't changeable. It's quite evident in every large military. THough, I can only imagine the stresses that combat brings upon someone, especially when you aren't fighting a uniformed enemy.
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malizai_
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Posted: 03-Jul-2006 at 07:18 |
Let me narrate u a true story of an incident that took place last week of a unprovoked stabbing incident that took place a couple of roads away from where i live. The guy was under the influence of drugs and it was his family that had called the police, all too late to prevent the tragic incident. The sixty yr old victim is hospitalized, the poor man was recovering from heart surgery when this incident took place.
I think that drugs also has a lot to do with it. Although, i think most of it is the cowboys, 'shootin da Inians', attitude.
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red clay
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Posted: 03-Jul-2006 at 09:15 |
Originally posted by DayI
Its a big shame for me to call those pigs as soldiers, a bunch of psychotic barbarians who came from the jungle who are dropped somwhere in Iraq thats what they are! I heard from a English general that mostly American soldiers are motivated from Hollywood movies, if you watch this clib you wont be suprise why those bullsh*t happens out there. Link of the clib, click here
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DayI- First that clip is a construct, a badly done construct. Compiled from other movies. What your point is with it , I don't know. I find it hard to believe that a "general" of any army would be irresponsible enough to say something as ridiculous and unfounded as that.
I don't know about the reserve or guard forces, but I do know the regular army well. My son is a career man with the army, combat engineers. He is a professional soldier, well trained and well educated as is most of the Regular army. I am not going to go into a long defense, I don't have to, and you are going to believe what you want to anyway. And if you believe the BS in that clip, I have some swamp land in Florida I would like to sell you.
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Unknown.
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Aelfgifu
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Posted: 03-Jul-2006 at 10:21 |
Originally posted by Tobodai
Stuff like this happened all the time in the Vietnam war, actually it happened alot more then. Guerilla insurgencies do that to people, its not as structured or predictable as conventional war. And not to sound like an ass , but whens the last time there was a war where soldiers didnt rape people?
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Stuff like this happened in every single war that ever happened. War can bring out both the best and the worst in anybody. everybody likes to believe they will be the hero, or at least stand true, but you wont know until youve been there.
But crimes must be punished, and because individual victims make little chance against big powers like states and armies, they need someone to protect them, legally. This is why the international war tribunal in The Hague was formed. The USA refused to join, passed a law that would enable them to invade the Netherlands if an American was ever held there and has bribed many poor countries with huge sums of money to support them in their refusal to sign.
I do think we can see clearly now why they did not sign. The Hague prison would be overflowing by now. Instead, these criminals have been deprived of their guns (poor boys) and undoubtedly will in time receive a gentle trial and an embarassingly low punishment.
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Northman
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Posted: 03-Jul-2006 at 10:48 |
Originally posted by machine
I read that what weve been told is just the tip of the iceberg.
I wonder if soldiers have been taking drugs??? Has anyone on here been there to Iraq as a soldier, is a lot of drug taking going down???? |
Hard to tell Machine, but US pilots evidently took drugs during the last gulf war. It was considered normal practise and to some extend mandatory.
There is no excuse for crimes like these what so ever - but drugs could certainly be one of the explanations.
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