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Mila
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Topic: GREAT news from Pakistan! Posted: 10-Jul-2006 at 21:16 |
Again, the Christian Science Monitor. I cannot stress enough that this is the best news/media publication on earth. :)
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JUBILATION IN JAIL:
Women prisoners in Rawalpindi, Pakistan,
celebrated after hearing the news of the president's decision Friday to
release them on bail. Many women in Pakistani jails are awaiting trial
on violations of laws that stipulate harsh penalties for adultery and
make it difficult to substantiate charges of rape.
ANJUM NAVEED/AP
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After TV series, Pakistan rethinks rape, sex laws
By Ashraf Khan
| Contributor to The Christian Science Monitor
KARACHI, PAKISTAN
More than 1,000 female prisoners are expected to be
released this week on bail in Pakistan following a decision by
President Pervez Musharraf to review a controversial set of laws
affecting women.
Many of the female inmates are awaiting trial for
violations under the Hudood Ordinances, which stipulate harsh penalties
for extramarital sex. The laws require a woman who claims that she was
raped to produce four pious male witnesses. Otherwise, she stands to be
charged with adultery - an offense that can carry a death sentence by
stoning. The ordinances have also been used as a weapon against women
who defy marriage choices made by their families.
President Musharraf promised five years ago to amend
the Hudood Ordinances, only to backtrack in the face of opposition from
hard-line Islamic groups. However, a groundbreaking television series
has taken the issue to a wider set of religious authorities. The
overall verdict of this unprecedented public debate - that the laws are
not rooted in the Koran - appears to be giving Musharraf the cover
needed to consider changes.
"We have launched this campaign in accordance with our
commitment to enlighten people about all those issues, which have
remained a taboo, though they have strong bearings on common people,"
says Azhar Abbas, the director of news at Geo television, which ran the
series last month. "We just want to make people know about the issue.
We just want to place the issue in the right context regardless to the
outcomes of the debate."
Talk of repealing or modifying the ordinances had been
a taboo since their promulgation in 1979 by Gen. Zia ul-Haq, a military
dictator who undertook an Islamacizing of the nation. Efforts by the
governments of Benazir Bhutto and Nawaz Sharif to modify or repeal the
laws foundered on the assertion that they are drawn from the Koran and
the Sunnah (the sayings of Mohammad). Hudood means "limitations or
boundaries" in Urdu.
Geo TV, one of a handful of new private stations that
have sprung up in recent years under more liberal media laws, decided
to tackle head-on the question of whether the Hudood Ordinances are
divine or merely man-made. Under the title "Zara Sochieye," or "Just
Think," the station brought together Islamic scholars, clerics, muftis,
and jurists for a hard-charging back and forth. (For transcripts and
more, go to www.geo.tv/zs/.)
The scholars, from diverse schools of Muslim thought, came to a consensus that the law is flawed and needs amending.
"The biggest flaw in the ordinance is that it does not
distinguish between fornication and rape," said Mohammad Farooq Khan, a
religious scholar. "It has shut the doors of justice for the rape
victims, who, in practice, are not able to produce four witnesses for
testifying on their behalf, as the law commands for."
Jurists with an experience of hearing odd Hudood cases also shared their views.
"I came across a score of such cases in which parents
lodged a case against their own daughter, accusing her of adultery,
while she chose to marry a person of her own choice," said Javed Iqbal,
a retired chief justice of the provincial Punjab High Court.
While most women accused of Hudood violations are
eventually acquitted, they often spend years in prison in the process.
Musharraf's decision Friday to free some 1,300 women on bail was
welcomed by prisoner advocates.
According to Javed Iqbal Burki, a lawyer with the Human
Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP), the number of imprisoned women in
2005 was more than 6,000, with some two-thirds of the cases tied to
Hudood. The numbers continue to fluctuate based on the granting of bail
and the settlement of cases, he says, meaning that the 1,300 women to
be released may represent all the women waiting trial for nonviolent
offenses.
Not everyone appearing on the Geo series is bent on seeing changes to the laws.
"They [Geo] want to render the Islamic law suspicious
and want a society with no moral limits or discipline," said Mufti
Usman Yar Khan after an appearance on Geo. He heads a faction of the
hard-line Jamiat Ulma-e-Islam party. "But we will not give them a [free
pass] in their bid."
In the wake of the Geo campaign, Musharraf asked a
religious panel to review the Hudood laws and propose amendments,
saying that the changes should be "compatible with Islamic law and
values."
"We have already started reviewing the Hudood
Ordinances and our legal committee has held several meetings," says
Mohammad Khalid Masood, chairman of the Islamic Ideology Council.
The council, comprised of up to 20 scholars from Sunni
and Shiite sects, is a constitutional consultative body tasked with
advising the government on religious laws. The council is set to submit
the draft of the law to the government by September and could
subsequently be taken to the parliament for its approval.
"We feel that the existing law has many flaws and they
need to be rectified, and hopefully we would come out with our
recommendations by September," Mr. Masood says.
Some longtime campaigners against Hudood doubt that the
move to release women on bail means the government will ultimately
decide to end the law.
"There is already a legal provision under which women
could be granted bail in nonbailable offenses. The problem is how the
women would pay the bonds for granting the bail. And if the government
is willing to pay the bonds against the bail this is not a meaningful
solution but only a one-off gesture. There must be a permanent
solution," says I.A. Rahman, head of HRCP. "The government's move ...
is very much related to the [forthcoming] elections."
Still, the head of the Islamic Ideology Council says
they are open to building on the Geo debates. "It is a much appreciated
effort by the [television] channel and it is of great help to the
council, and we have requested them to provide us with all the
recordings of the program," Masood says. | |
Edited by Mila - 10-Jul-2006 at 21:16
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Mila
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Posted: 10-Jul-2006 at 21:21 |
To me, the most important aspect of this is yet another demonstration
that education is the key. Ignorence is the root of so much evil in
this world and it is so dangerous.
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flyingzone
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Posted: 10-Jul-2006 at 21:56 |
Mila you are absolutely right. And more importantly, many sociologists have actually pointed out that the most effective way to "modernize" a country is by raising the level of education of WOMEN in that country. When women are empowered by education, family planning becomes possible, the health of the entire population will improve, household income will increase, and the quality of the entire labour force will also improve.
Edited by flyingzone - 10-Jul-2006 at 21:58
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TeldeInduz
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Posted: 10-Jul-2006 at 22:09 |
Yes, it's a big step & a big improvement to the laws in Pakistan. A bit of history is probably necessary to understand why the laws were implemented in the first place, but it's for another time. I think the amended law is much better now and I think it does protect the rights of a woman.
I think the significance of this change is that though adultery will remain an offence in Pakistan, there wont be the punishing of the victim which occurred in the previous law. Before the change, if a rape could not be proved, an adultery trial could be prosecuted for which a woman could be held in jail until the trial was over, this basically involved punishing a victim in some cases. Now they wont be put into jail unless an offence has been committed and they are found guilty in a court. That I think is a huge step. I think there will be further changes to the law in the near future though
Edited by TeldeInduz - 10-Jul-2006 at 22:11
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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TeldeInduz
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Posted: 10-Jul-2006 at 22:22 |
I would like to clarify one thing that appears a lot in the media..
Pakistani rape or "zina" laws as it is called is complicated for various reasons, but one quote from the article I'd like to comment on
The laws require a woman who claims that she was raped to produce four pious male witnesses. Otherwise, she stands to be charged with adultery - an offense that can carry a death sentence by stoning. The ordinances have also been used as a weapon against women who defy marriage choices made by their families.
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This is not strictly true, since the system works like this. The Pakistani judicial system divides rape into two categories -
- Public rape for which the punishment is Hadd or death if proven
- Non public rape for which the punishment is Tazir or about 30 years in jail if proven (lashing has been banned)
Public rape is considered very bad for society so has the higher penalty. It also has a higher standard of evidence because the penalty is higher. In these sorts of cases 4 male witnesses are required. If that's possible then the sentence of Hadd can be carried out on the rapist.
Non-public rape, however does not require such a high standard of evidence. DNA evidence, the testimony of the woman herself is allowed in court, and this should be enough to secure a lengthy jail sentence of the accused. Under these "Tazir' trials as they are known, 4 male witnesses are not required.
It is up to the trial judge to determine whether a case is Hadd or Tazir - most are Tazir though.
Edited by TeldeInduz - 10-Jul-2006 at 22:27
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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Mila
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Posted: 10-Jul-2006 at 23:11 |
Hey Telde! Thanks so much for all your input!
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Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 01:26 |
To clarrify even further, there is no difference between the two rape laws, its only a question of sentencing.
All in all I don't know why they have done this, releasing criminals like that. There is a challenge to this in the courts, will not be surprised if its overturned.
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TeldeInduz
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Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 03:51 |
Originally posted by Sparten
To clarrify even further, there is no difference between the two rape laws, its only a question of sentencing.
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There is one rape law, but there are two diferent punishments which require different standards of evidence in the different situations, as mentioned above.
All in all I don't know why they have done this, releasing criminals like that. There is a challenge to this in the courts, will not be surprised if its overturned. |
They're not all criminals - this was the problem with the pre-amended law. The trouble was that you had some women who could not prove rape, and these women could then face an adultery prosecution for which they would be put in jail awaiting the outcome of the trial. Not all these women will have committed a crime (since not all rape can be proved), perhaps a couple will have committed a crime, but the released women who are up on adultery charges will still face the outcome of their trial.
I would not be surprised if some people will lodge an appeal against this, Musharraf though I think has made a very good decision.
Edited by TeldeInduz - 11-Jul-2006 at 03:55
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 05:44 |
Big problem is that (you'll have to excuse me if I am wrong, I am on holiday till next monday and will not be able to get a better grasp until I get to the office), this includes women who are convicted of theft, or manslaughter, or fraud etc.
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Aelfgifu
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Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 06:08 |
"They [Geo] want to render the Islamic law suspicious and want a society with no moral limits or discipline," said Mufti Usman Yar Khan after an appearance on Geo. He heads a faction of the hard-line Jamiat Ulma-e-Islam party. "But we will not give them a [free pass] in their bid."
Why is it that those religios people always think that everybody will just burst out in fornication and debauchery as soon as they are given a chance? As if people are not able to have moral standards without religion? I am not religious, and I still know that murder, rape and adultery are negative.
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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
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TeldeInduz
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Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 06:13 |
Originally posted by Sparten
Big problem is that (you'll have to excuse me if I am wrong, I am on holiday till next monday and will not be able to get a better grasp until I get to the office), this includes women who are convicted of theft, or manslaughter, or fraud etc.
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No, I can guarantee you will find this only affects women awaiting trial on Zina, and not for women already convicted of theft, manslaughter or fraud. Those will remain in prison (there aren't many). It will also allow those women awaiting trial on charges of theft to be released, but not major crimes, such as those awaiting trial for murder I suspect.
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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TeldeInduz
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Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 06:35 |
Originally posted by Aelfgifu
"They [Geo] want to render the Islamic law suspicious and want a society with no moral limits or discipline," said Mufti Usman Yar Khan after an appearance on Geo. He heads a faction of the hard-line Jamiat Ulma-e-Islam party. "But we will not give them a [free pass] in their bid."
Why is it that those religios people always think that everybody will just burst out in fornication and debauchery as soon as they are given a chance? As if people are not able to have moral standards without religion? I am not religious, and I still know that murder, rape and adultery are negative. |
Political motives usually with Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam. They moan and yell a lot, that's about it..
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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Aelfgifu
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Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 08:31 |
Over here there was an article in the paper about more and more schools for girls closing in Afganistan because of pressure by the Taliban.
This made me wonder. Does it actually say in the Koran that girlas and woman are not allowed to educated? I would find this strange as I seem to remember from what I learned of the History of Islam that Mohammed liked his wives to be smart and educated woman. Was one of them not in fact a businesswoman?
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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears.
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TeldeInduz
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Posted: 11-Jul-2006 at 08:36 |
That's for another thread..
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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morticia
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Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 12:05 |
Originally posted by flyingzone
Mila you are absolutely right. And more importantly, many sociologists have actually pointed out that the most effective way to "modernize" a country is by raising the level of education of WOMEN in that country. When women are empowered by education, family planning becomes possible, the health of the entire population will improve, household income will increase, and the quality of the entire labour force will also improve. |
Great response, Flyingzone! Couldn't have said it better myself!
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kotumeyil
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Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 08:47 |
I think only education isn't enough. An educated woman cannot confront the harsh social pressure by herself. The social system that strenghthens patriarchy should be overthrown in a revolutionary way, along with social and economic policies. Every step towards secularism should be taken until some bastards will see that they have no f**king right to intervene the sexual affairs of anybody. Adultry is not a business of anybody but the individual himself/herself. It's just a matter of individual ethical principles. If your wife does adultry you cannot punish but only divorce from her.
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morticia
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Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 12:41 |
Originally posted by kotumeyil
I think only education isn't enough. An educated woman cannot confront the harsh social pressure by herself.The social system that strenghthens patriarchy should be overthrown in a revolutionary way, along with social and economic policies. Every step towards secularism should be taken until some bastards will see that they have no f**king right to intervene the sexual affairs of anybody. Adultry is not a business of anybody but the individual himself/herself. It's just a matter of individual ethical principles. If your wife does adultry you cannot punish butonly divorce from her. |
I think that both genders need to be educated. The women need to know that they can sustain themselves economically, socially and emotionally, as well as have the ability to make valuable contributions to their communities. The men need to know that women are not subservients but rather valid members of society, that women can be of great assistance to them, economically and socially, that women are their equal and not second class, and that when a woman says NO to sex, it means NO RAPE! Extramarital affairs should be a personal matter to be dealt with solely by the couples involved ...they can then make decisions to either forgive said affairs or separate and/or divorce.
Edited by morticia - 09-Aug-2006 at 12:45
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Master_Blaster
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Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 19:35 |
You know the saying ....
"If you educate a boy -then you have educated an individual. If you educate a girl - then you have educated an entire family."
Edited by Master_Blaster - 09-Aug-2006 at 19:35
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TeldeInduz
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Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 05:51 |
I think only education isn't enough. An educated woman cannot confront the harsh social pressure by herself. The social system that strenghthens patriarchy should be overthrown in a revolutionary way, along with social and economic policies. Every step towards secularism should be taken until some bastards will see that they have no f**king right to intervene the sexual affairs of anybody. Adultry is not a business of anybody but the individual himself/herself. It's just a matter of individual ethical principles. If your wife does adultry you cannot punish but only divorce from her.
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I think that adultery doesn't just affect an individual, more so it affects family members. It's an individual choice that's for sure, but the consequences have ramifications for other people (those other members). One could class domestic violence as an individual's choice, but this is rightly punished by law. If a law also is promulgated to eliminate extra marital affairs, something I guess which is socially detrimental, then this has the same action as laws against domestic violence - that is to protect individuals from abuse, be it physical or mental. You might be right on fornication being an individual act more so though.
The problem with this law in Pakistan was more surrounding its implementation. The changes that have occurred that I'm aware of, are that persons involved in Zina (adultery) cases can be granted bail, that there is a higher standard of evidence to prove an adultery case (4 witnesses) than a rape case (DNA, no witnesses are required to obtain a guilty verdict), and also perhaps more importantly, the recognition of adultery being a non cognizable offence, whilst rape remaining as one. The non discriminatory laws before amending were the problem, but now this has been changed..one article that understand the Hudood Laws (and quite clearly states that any sort of evidence is acceptable for prosecuting rape in Pakistan), though perhaps is presented from an anti Musharaff angle,
However, rape will be an offence irrespective of any number of witnesses. In case of rape, even circumstantial evidence would suffice. The proposed law does not revive adultery an offence, which was regarded so under section 497 of the Pakistan Penal Code before the promulgation of Hudood Ordinance, and was introduced during the British rule.
http://www.thenews.com.pk/daily_detail.asp?id=19011
Though many are pointing to female education being the key here, it's one factor only..it was Musharraf who changed the law not Benazir Bhutto.
Edited by TeldeInduz - 10-Aug-2006 at 06:00
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Master_Blaster
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Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 20:44 |
Pervez Musharraf is a dictator and has the full support of the armed forces behind him whereas Benazir Bhutto -although extremely corrupt- was a democratically elected female politician in a conservative Islamic society. She would have been risking political demise if she had dared to introduce such laws which were opposed by the Islamists in the highly conservative Baluchistan and Pashtunistan (North West Frontier Province).
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