Imperialism of China and of the West

"Again, there was no such term as China, Zhong Guo, around that time.  Certainly were no such term as Chinese, Zhong Guo Ren.  Zhong Guo not as a term of identity, more as a term of geography.  Because the four sides around the yellow river bend were full of barbarians.  Si-Fang, the four directions was a term used since Shang dynasty to call the bararians around the Shang kingdom.  During that time, Fang �� is used as a word for a country, or city not direction.  This word is then barrowed to mean directions because the Four main babaric tribes happened to be Di to the north, Chiang �� to the West, Miao ­] to the south and Yi �i to the East."

there was no such term as human beings when we lived in cave. there were no americans, no british, no french when the chinese started calling themselves citizens of the central kingdom.

since we came first, we should rule the world? that's nonsense! ur arguement doesn't hold for the same reason.

we should all go back to our caves right? is that what you want?

Not true. Germans call themselves Deutsch but they are also Germanen (not sure about the spelling).

In Chinese Germans in the middle ages (crusades etc) are referred to as the Ri Er Man people (from Germanen). Only recently do we call them De Yi Zhi or De Guo.

Hey Coolstorm,

    Okay.  But since when was this our debate?

Peace,

Michael

12-2-2004

That is a very interesting point.  I always wondered about the Gui Fang ���� people.  Obviously Gui is either a translation, or it is a term the Hui people used to judge others, no one calls themselves the Ghost people.  Who are these Gui Fang ���� people now?  Who were they?  If you know, please share with me ^_^~

Hey. I like vegetables.

Mr coolstorm, you must understand that the situation of Taiwan is that we are dying to become an American garrison or Japanese colony. We have lost our gallbladder and vertebrates through 50 years of political segregation and over 2 decades of devolution.

I hope you can understand. I am also very sensitive that my fellow Taiwanese people are calling me false Taiwanese, descendant of Waisheng pigs, traitor etc.

I reviewed my history notes from last semester and found a definition about Imperialism. It is the ruling of a group of people, sometimes away from the motherland. The imperialist takes their resources, their labor and exploits them while giving them a degree of military protection (or military oppression to prevent them from boiling over). The imperialist also control the subjugated politics.

Thus, the US occupation of Iraq is a good example of imperialism.

Oh yeah, the Gui Fang people are now the Chinese people. I might have Gui Fang blood in me because I look good. I might also have Dong Yi blood in me because I am awesome. I might also have Mongol blood in me because it took me just 1 month to start cantering (and the horse riding lesson stopped because I don't have $$).

Hey coolstorm,

    This thread (which I started) attempts to explore the differences between the conceptualizations of "imperialism" of ancient China and of the West.  Its purpose is not to discuss whether China should be united.  Now I believe that rarely can a popular thread stay on the original topic, and I'm not adamant that it cannot go into tangents.  But it seems like you bring in the question of nationalism to almost every topic on the Asian forum.  My concern is that any objective discussion becomes difficult when it's so emotionally charged.

Peace,

Michael

12-3-2004

Hi,I should say this topic is very interesting.Only that something cannot get clear through such words.The truth is that all histories  just must be and have been explained by people of today.

O,I'm afraid the nationalism is not a good idea,but no conutry can get through without that.In fact,I don't appreciate nationalism at all.The problem is that it has been so difficult for the people between the two sides to understand each other.If our fellow compatriots in the island go on with such splittist line, The war is coming,and no one could prevent that....

"Again, there was no such term as China, Zhong Guo, around that time.   "

No, the term ZhongGuo was found in the inscription of the Zhou kings in the 10th century b.c. The inscriptions describe them pacifying the south, west, east and north and set themselves up in the center. However the middle kingdom here discribes the Zhou only.

 "Zhong Guo not as a term of identity, more as a term of geography."

Zhong Yuan is the geography, Zhongguo is a political identity meaning the legitimate son of heaven that rule Zhong Yuan.

"during the manchu dynasty, chinese people called themselves "han people" or "hua people"."

Or they just call themselves the Qing people if one serves as officials.

"whether chinese people are called chinese, han, tang, hua doesn't matter cause they are all descendants of huang di, the hua people."

They're not since that doesn't include the ethnic minority that arenot descended from Huang Di whose existence itself can't even be verified. Zhong Guo Ren is a rather new term in response to western concept of a nation. Zhong Guo to Han is similar to British to English. Its first used during the Qing dynasty and expanded during the Republic.

Thanks MengTzu, that is what I am trying to convey.  The word Zhong Guo does not mean what the Nationalist and Communist propaganda altered it to be before end of Qing dynasty. 

The term Middle Kingdom was simply refering to Zhou being at the middle of these "uncivilized" people.  In fact, Zhou has many different ethnicities, people of Zhou for example, Zhou is a western state of Shang, who used to be considered uncivilized by the Shang nobels.  Zhou contains the ethnicity of Qiang (���l�� Jiang Zi Yia is of this race), and race of Yi which includes the nobels of Shang and so on.