Imperialism of China and of the West

"The question here isn't when the term "Zhong Guo" was coined, but what "Zhong Guo" means for us today."

I'm merely emphasizing that the term existed, as the sentence that he put it seem to indiccate that it didn't.

the japanese called japan "the middle kingdom" as well.

it's just a name to refer to their nation.

a better way of refering to the chinese is hua people.

or hua xia as china.

Agreed, actually so did the Israeli people who named themselves the Middle kingdom.

"During the Warring States, every state has different language (of the same family but still different). "

No, there are many states that have the same, the state of Han Zhao and Wei, from which they spawned from the Jin was virtually identical.

" In essence, each state was even more different from each other than the European nations after the collapse of Rome."

Care to elaborate a bit more? Considering much of Europe isn't even of one culture.

"Where the idea if Nationalism was obvious, was when the lineage of one state is changed, yet the name of the nation was kept because the name was now associated with the land and the people.For example the state of Qi, after Tian family has overthrown the Jiang nobles, the Qi people were still loyal to the name of Qi.  This happens to many states."

Yet after two generation, that feeling is gone, as already pointed out, the feeling is patriotism towards their reigning kings. There were terms to describe the Chinese states from others, the states of Zhong Yuan is the term just like feudal England and Germany. Since there are no foreign sources descibing China at the time, we don't know what foreign texts called them. But the states of the central plains certainly did distinguish those from the central plain with those that aren't from there. Of course considering nationalism didn't even exist back then, what is the point in discussing nationalism?

 " That is why the broken up of Jin is the transition from Spring Autumn Era to the Warring States Era.  Because people are no longer simply subjects of the nobles of Zhou, instead they were the subjects of the lord of their land."

Many of them were still dominally Zhou fiefs until the end of 4th century b.c., Qin hasn't officially declared their ruler kings until the death of Qin Xiao gong who made Qin the strongest power of the central plains. And the subject of legitimacy hs long been discussed by the Qin.

Whats funny is that 221 b.c. is given as the date in which the Qin dynasty began, in reality that should be 256 b.c. when Zhou was overan by Qin.

"I don't think Qin dynasty should be counted from when Zhou was overran."

Why not?

"Zhou's leader is King of Zhou.  Before Warring States, the leader of each state were "Hou" not "Wang".  They were subjects of Zhou.  Once they started declaring themselves as "Wang", King, that makes them equal to the King of Zhou."

Yes, and some of them haven't declare wang until the end of the 4th century b.c., Qin is one of the examples. Surprisingly, Qin the strongest one is one of the last to do so. The others been Zhao and Yen.

"Most your arguements are not dissagreeing with me.  The central plane was not one culture either."

  The term is too general, most of China today aren't one culture, the discrepancy is always there, its just the degree of difference.

"The one culture brain washing wasn't really achieved after Han dynasty, especially after Dong ZhongShu's expelling all non-confucious studies.  Why else do you think the Han people called themselves Han even so long after Han has fellen."

All Dong Zhong shu did was made Confucian the official philosophy, that has little to do with cultural unification which was done under Qin Shi Huang.

"Why not Zhou? Why not Shang? why not Xia? why not Tang?  Why did Han alone become the group identity?"

There are many people that call themselves people of Tang, while others call themselves people of xia. The Nan Man for example, was called the people of Han when it was the Han dynasty, they became the people of Tang when the central government was the Tang dynasty.

"Because that's not how it works.  Start of Qin dynasty is the same as when Qin leaders started calling themselves King."

And their ruler was called king since the end of the 3rd century b.c. well before Zhou was conquered.

  "I guess in your mind there's always been only one ruling party of China that's passed from one to the next like a lineage. "

Yes, its called legitimacy. Its something unique to the Chinese concept of politics.

 "So if Zhou still exists, there couldn't have been a Qin dynasty.  However, that is a propaganda and a simplification of the matter.  When Qing dynasty started, Ming still had leaders on the run.  Are you saying Qing shouldn't count as a dynasty until the all Ming leaders has been killed?"

I don't see what your point is, since its only in accord wih my argument, Qin began before 221 b.c.

"Yep.  When when Qin did so, that's when the dynasty started."

"You see, that China that you are refering to didn't exist that way back in the Warring States era.  That's is the point of this discussion."

I don't see your point, prior to nationalism, no concept of nation hood was there so obviously it did not exist, that goes for all nation states prior to the 18th century, the culture back then was not that drastically different if you actually studied ancient script. All the scripts of the central plains spawned from one source, that of the Shang text, due to centuries of separate regimesd, the writting developed differently, but there difference is minimum and someone from Qin would have no problem understanding the text from someone from Qi, just like how modern China's script is developed differently and simplified from Hong Kong and Taiwan's.

"you missed my point.  Of course people change their nationality when the ruling power changed. " However, Han has dissapeared for so long, why was Han still the term used to refer to Han Chinese?  Why not Tang?  "

The point was it isn't! In cantonese, the people are called Tang ren not Han ren.

"Tang was a great nation, how come after Tang dynasty Chinese people weren't called Tangs?"

 They were. Thats why the streets in China town are Tang ren Jie, nmot Han ren Jie.

 "Why are Chinese medicine called Han Yao? Chinese clothing called Han Fu? Chinese writting called Han Zi?"

Funny how Chinese is called Hua Xia, while during Han, Chinese were called Qin ren. While in the poem of Du Fu, what the Tang soldier at Nan Zhao had was put in a phrase, "Qin Qi Han Ma" (Qin's flag, Han's horse)

"If you understand what the word Xia means, you'll know Xia isn't just a dynasty name.  Hua Xia did not describe a race or a culture, it simply describes civilization.  It is for that reason Xia dynasty was named that in the first place.  Because they considered themselves the only civilized people."

The point is they used other dynasty names not just Han.

"The use of Tang Ren only exist in Tang Ren Jie's name.  It is just a name because it sounds better than Han Ren Jie.  Name another example where Han Chinese refered to themselves as Tang Ren? "

I did, in cantonese its called Tang ren not han ren.

"Of course they did, my point is it didn't last.  If your nation is Han, obivously you'll call yourself Han Ren.  Just like obviously people called themselves Xia Ren once.  But why did people stop calling themselves that and never stopped calling themselves Han is the point."

But Tang ren lasted, so Han isn't the only term thats used.