Imperialism of China and of the West

Han Ren is still being used today.

A mainland Chinese ID tells the ethicity that you belong. A Han Chinese has an ID with the term "Han Ren" on it. 

Originally posted by warhead "The point is the concept of all people in the middle plane (which also changes meaning over the history) were of one race did not develope until Han dynasty."   The concept of the race of "Han" did exist, or the people of central plain wouldn't be calling the people outside as Yi if they are the same.

So let's go back to the original subject.  That is pre-Han, especially Warring States Era, there were nationalism developing between the states and there was no concept of one race in the land where people consider to be China today.

Have we resolved this?  Or are you still insisting that even in Warring States, The concept of one China was already in place?

Originally posted by warhead As already pointed out the concept is patriotism and it was never strong as it is in today's sense. People born in one state travel to another all the time and serve faithfully, just as Matternich consider himself not of any European nationality but a citizen of Europe, a lot of warring state figure are no different. Shang Yang been one, So was Wu chi, Wu Zi Xu and even confucious himself.

Actually I think it's more like Russian scientists after the end of cold war going to work for other countries because they lost their jobs.  That does not mean Russia and those nations are the same one.  You might also compare it to Columbus going to other nations to find leaders that will support and fund his idea.  That does not make him feel he is anyless Portrigese. 

Originally posted by warhead It seems your not answering to the reply, which is that it did, or else people outside would not be called Yi and Yue. The concept of race is only absent during Shang, and perhaps early Western Zhou. The concept of one China has always been in place since the begining, its how you define it. There is only one legitimate son of Heaven and king, and that he rules the Middle kingdom while others around are faithful and obedient, they are granted fiefs and vassalage and serve under the ruler. You cannot have two middle kingdom when its in the middle can you?

Define "from the beginning".  But I don't agree with that point of view.  The concept of the Emperor is the son of heaven started after the concept of Emperor was established.  Also as I said before, the term "Zhong Guo", what you call "middle kingdom" did not mean a kingdom until after Warring States.  Which is established by Han dynasty by the help of Confucism.

"Actually I think it's more like Russian scientists after the end of cold war going to work for other countries because they lost their jobs.  That does not mean Russia and those nations are the same one.  "

More as in what? Su Qin is just like Matternich, he speaks all the languages of the 6 kingdoms since they are not much different, while drawing on the alliance, this has nothing to do with preference over any one in particular. Thats why nationalism did not exist in the strong sense and people don't really care about serving their kingdom if opportunity rises for them to rise higher.

"You might also compare it to Columbus going to other nations to find leaders that will support and fund his idea.  That does not make him feel he is anyless Portrigese. "

Same concept with Matternich.

warhead wrote: It seems your not answering to the reply, which is that it did, or else people outside would not be called Yi and Yue. The concept of race is only absent during Shang, and perhaps early Western Zhou. The concept of one China has always been in place since the begining, its how you define it. There is only one legitimate son of Heaven and king, and that he rules the Middle kingdom while others around are faithful and obedient, they are granted fiefs and vassalage and serve under the ruler. You cannot have two middle kingdom when its in the middle can you?

"Define "from the beginning". "

The begining means when the first state is formed in the Central Plains.

 "But I don't agree with that point of view.  The concept of the Emperor is the son of heaven started after the concept of Emperor was established."

 

No it wasn't, son of heaven existed before the term emperor, the Zhou king was also the Son of Heaven. This is clearly recorded in Shi Ji.

  "Also as I said before, the term "Zhong Guo", what you call "middle kingdom" did not mean a kingdom until after Warring States.  Which is established by Han dynasty by the help of Confucism."

 No, it was a kingdom or the term would not exist, only that this kingdom was restricted to Zhou which was Zhong Guo, this concept of a middle kingdom is no different from that down to the last dynasty. Confucianism has nothing to do with it. In fact I don't even know how you associate Confucianism with the Middle kingdom considering they have no relationship whatsoever. Needless to say Cponfucious himself drew his philosophy from the existing cultural elements that are alerady established.

I'm no historian, but based from what I know/read:

- The Chinese weren't so much conquerors as such. Every outside nation they didn't consider "barbaric" was based on trade (and I'd think China would be the benefactor here rather than vice versa).

- Tendancy to have vassal states RATHER than conquering it.

- Had too much of an ego and thought Northerners (mainly Mongolians and Manchurians) were barbaric people.

 

I've always had a perception that China preferred to trade and I suppose in their favour with other nations or set them up as vassal states. Europeans tended to conquer and control foreign lands? At least thats what I see as the main difference anyway.

Originally posted by MengTzu Originally posted by ianhughes I've always had a perception that China preferred to trade and I suppose in their favour with other nations or set them up as vassal states. Europeans tended to conquer and control foreign lands? At least thats what I see as the main difference anyway. You got the hindsight symptom =P  Ancient Chinese despised commerce.  Although there were certainly merchants, they were the lowest class.  There were also some economic renovation, such as Wang Anshi's attempted reform to have the government lend money to peasants through credits and the invention of paper money, but the dominant intellectual and Confucian base of ancient China preferred "production for use" (such as agriculture) rather than "production for gain" (commerce.)  You are probably looking from the hindsight of the modern world where we see Chinese people are good business people, but in ancient China, being a merchant wasn't a very noble thing.

I'm no Chinese historian but yeah. I know merchants were the most despised social group in ancient China (I think it was because they didnt produce anything or help the "country" in any way...).